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RE: orientation decisions - 4/7/2008 4:33:43 PM   
Stephann


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Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Well, if he turns you into a lesbian then by definition you won't love or have sex with him, only with other women.
Sounds more like he wants you to play with other girls a lot.

Love is love, doesn't matter if your previous partner was male, female or trans. You loved, you healed, and you learned to love again. You have filled that void in your heart, with your love for him.


Tell that to the lesbians I've had sex with.

Being gay or lesbian might result from your sexual preferences, but they are lifestyle choices.  Choosing to live as a lesbian doesn't mean you must be homosexual; you can be bisexual, or even straight.  I've known two straight women who considered themselves lesbians; they prefered female relationship partners, not because they were sexually attracted to women, but because they had been horribly hurt by men and feared men more than women.

The swinging door is you have lots of men and women living 'straight' lives, when they are clearly (and blatently) homosexual.  They choose to have mates of the opposite sex for religious, familial, or other personal reasons.   Sexual orientation may certainly (and ideally) be influenced sexual preference, but they are hardly synonomous.

shaobaihu,

I think it's entirely possible to alter a persons preferences.  Lots of men and women locked up in prison learn this first hand.  I've seen a lot of 'it's not possible' statements; but the truth is, that sexual preferences really can be manipulated under certain circumstances.  Some people are more flexible, sexually, than others; it's no different than any other appetite.  If you are presented with the opportunity to enjoy an appealing women in an appealing setting, it's possible that you'll enjoy something far more than you expected.

The trouble with sexual preferences is that the assumption that we are 'hard wired' one way or the other is widespread.  We're expected to know well before we should be having sex, whether we like boys or girls.  Many people spend their entire lives having unfulfilling sexual encounters, because they never had the opportunity to reflect on what they enjoy, for themselves, or they have a horrible first experience that they carry for the rest of their lives.  The first time I ate squash, it was cold and forced down my throat at the age of five.  I still vomit at the smell.  The one time I kissed a man, it was a similar experience, and one I won't repeat again.

Point is, it's usually less of a question of 'if you can be converted' as it is 'are you interested in experimenting.' 

Stephan

Stephan


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: orientation decisions - 4/7/2008 5:02:54 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		If sexual orientation could be changed then child molesters would be the first in the line at the change store.  They would be joined by people that use animals for sexual purposes, vegetables likewise,  and inflatable sex toys.

You can make me have sex with a woman, but i won't enjoy it, and it doesn't make me bi.    Only in your dreams - or your uneducated mind.  Do some research please.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 12:07:24 PM   
Corvidae


Posts: 82
Joined: 3/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Well, if he turns you into a lesbian then by definition you won't love or have sex with him, only with other women.
Sounds more like he wants you to play with other girls a lot.

Love is love, doesn't matter if your previous partner was male, female or trans. You loved, you healed, and you learned to love again. You have filled that void in your heart, with your love for him.


Tell that to the lesbians I've had sex with.

Being gay or lesbian might result from your sexual preferences, but they are lifestyle choices.  Choosing to live as a lesbian doesn't mean you must be homosexual; you can be bisexual, or even straight.  I've known two straight women who considered themselves lesbians; they prefered female relationship partners, not because they were sexually attracted to women, but because they had been horribly hurt by men and feared men more than women.

The swinging door is you have lots of men and women living 'straight' lives, when they are clearly (and blatently) homosexual.  They choose to have mates of the opposite sex for religious, familial, or other personal reasons.   Sexual orientation may certainly (and ideally) be influenced sexual preference, but they are hardly synonomous.

shaobaihu,

I think it's entirely possible to alter a persons preferences.  Lots of men and women locked up in prison learn this first hand.  I've seen a lot of 'it's not possible' statements; but the truth is, that sexual preferences really can be manipulated under certain circumstances.  Some people are more flexible, sexually, than others; it's no different than any other appetite.  If you are presented with the opportunity to enjoy an appealing women in an appealing setting, it's possible that you'll enjoy something far more than you expected.

The trouble with sexual preferences is that the assumption that we are 'hard wired' one way or the other is widespread.  We're expected to know well before we should be having sex, whether we like boys or girls.  Many people spend their entire lives having unfulfilling sexual encounters, because they never had the opportunity to reflect on what they enjoy, for themselves, or they have a horrible first experience that they carry for the rest of their lives.  The first time I ate squash, it was cold and forced down my throat at the age of five.  I still vomit at the smell.  The one time I kissed a man, it was a similar experience, and one I won't repeat again.

Point is, it's usually less of a question of 'if you can be converted' as it is 'are you interested in experimenting.' 

Stephan

Stephan


 
Hmmm, I'd question some of your definitions for different terms.  I understand that you are trying to make the destinction between behavior and actual sexual orientation. I wouldn't say that being gay or lesbian is a "lifestyle choice," since that is not how they are generally defined. Also, from my point of view, "sexual orientation" is how a person genuinely feels, in their gut, about one gender or another. A friend of mine described it as a compass, you can push the needle one way or another, but if you let go it will swing back to North. I don't like the term "sexual preference" because it implies that we are gay bi or straight only because we choose to be that way. I know that I am bi, but am primerally attracted to women. This is not because I "prefer" to be attracted to women more than men, but because I AM attracted to women more than men... no choice here. Sure, someone can choose (or be forced) into a relationship with a gender they are not attracted to, but that is a different thing entirely.
I believe that every one is different, and that some people's sexual orientations are more fluid than others. To use your analogy, some people might not like the taste of squash at age 16, and at age 60 they will still not like squash, not because they haven't experimented enough with it, but because they genuinely don't like it. I'm sure for others they might not like squash, but then 10 years down the road they might take a look at that squash and suddenly it seems pretty darn appealing. Either way it has nothing to do with whether another person wants you to eat squash or not.

< Message edited by Corvidae -- 4/8/2008 12:57:17 PM >

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RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 12:31:47 PM   
abcbsex


Posts: 478
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline 		In high school a friend of mine thought up a word to describe me without knowing that it worked perfectly! it was "hetero-flexible" and as cheesy as it may sound, it's definitely the truth. (she thought it up while we were talking about flirting with men vs. flirting with women and she had just told me I do both) I think it's what a lot of female subs are in order to participate in sexual activities with girls to please a male dominant. Maybe even male subs with female dominants, etc. I think of it as being willing to have sex with either gender, but preferring the opposite in relationships. Bi-sexual feels like a false title to me, because I don't think I'd fall in love with a woman.

In short, if you're flexible and have thought about it before, or even if you're just an overtly sexual person, it might work out for your master to suggest you do things with girls. If it's something you'd never be interested in unless he told you that you have to, you might not enjoy it. I'd talk it over more with him... maybe if he wants to see you be sexual with someone else he'd open up to the possibility of another man (though you may want a submissive one so their personalities don't clash)

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 12:36:18 PM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		being gay or lesbian isn't a lifestyle choice.. anymore than being heterosexual is a lifestyle choice...

I don't choose and its not a lifestyle.. its who I am...

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 12:38:48 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		So I decided yesterday I wanted my sub to Shit Gold Bricks and have beat her everytime she fails to render gold.

I know if I tell her to do it long enough it will happen. I am a Master and she is a slave. she does as she is told.

No matter how much he may do to make you be with women and only with women he will only be controling your actions NOT YOUR PREFERENCES. This said saying a girl is a Lesbian because she is only doing as she is told and that means having sex only with other women makes her NOTHING more than a SUB doing as they are TOLD. The sexual Orientation has NOT CHANGED Only the actions engaged in.

Steel

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RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 12:45:54 PM   
abcbsex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

So I decided yesterday I wanted my sub to Shit Gold Bricks and have beat her everytime she fails to render gold.

I know if I tell her to do it long enough it will happen. I am a Master and she is a slave. she does as she is told.



It helps if you force-feed her gold leaf. The flecks of shiny in her poo would be an encouragement,then she'd be able to shit gold bricks in no time!
-C

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 1:44:04 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Corvidae

Hmmm, I'd question some of your definitions for different terms. 

That's cool, this is a discussion after all.

I understand that you are trying to make the destinction between behavior and actual sexual orientation. I wouldn't say that being gay or lesbian is a "lifestyle choice," since that is not how they are generally defined.
 
I did, and would.  I don't have to live gay, even if I am homosexual.  Thus, a man living as a gay man is a choice he has made.  I pointed out lots of homosexuals choose to live 'straight' lives, complete with the wife/husband and rugrats.  That's a choice they, too, make.

Also, from my point of view, "sexual orientation" is how a person genuinely feels, in their gut, about one gender or another.

Again, this is operating under the assumption that one knows, deep down, what they really feel about their sexual preferences.  Lots of people have no clue about what they like; they imitate what they see on television, without ever having had the opportunity to explore.  My slave is incredibly sexually open.  Her twin sister has had a very conservative boyfriend for the past three years.  They both have very submissive personalities.  It's no shock that the people who have been sexually open in my slave's life have contributed to her sexual flexibility, while her sister's rigid relationship have led to her having (more or less) firmly defined expectations on how sex 'should' be.

A friend of mine described it as a compass, you can push the needle one way or another, but if you let go it will swing back to North. I don't like the term "sexual preference" because it implies that we are gay bi or straight only because we choose to be that way.

I think preference is an excellent term.  I prefer cookie dough ice cream.  I still love vanilla, sherbert, manjar, and carmel, but my preference remains cookie dough.  If I hated other flavors, it would suggest I have a much stronger preference for cookie dough.  Having a preference doesn't inherently suggest I have chosen to like something or not.

I know that I am bi, but am primerally attracted to women. This is not because I "prefer" to be attracted to women more than men, but because I AM attracted to women more than men... no choice here.

As I suggested, that doesn't mean you don't prefer women; ergo, your sexual preference is generally women. 

Sure, someone can choose (or be forced) into a relationship with a gender they are not attracted to, but that is a different thing entirely.
I believe that every one is different, and that some people's sexual orientations are more fluid than others. To use your analogy, some people might not like the taste of squash at age 16, and at age 60 they will still not like squash, not because they haven't experimented enough with it, but because they genuinely don't like it. I'm sure for others they might not like squash, but then 10 years down the road they might take a look at that squash and suddenly it seems pretty darn appealing. Either way it has nothing to do with whether another person wants you to eat squash or not.

On the contrary, my slave enjoys women mostly because she knows I enjoy seeing her with a woman.  Her sexuality - with both men and women - is hard wired into her submission.  Not every submissive is (or should be) wired this way.
 
Also, and briefly, you make assessments in a manner that I think isn't accurate.  To say you prefer women 95% of the time might be true, but has nothing to do with what sort of relationships you enjoy with men (or not.)  I only find about 5% of the women I interact with on a daily basis attractive.  Does that mean I'm 95% gay?  Hardly!  It means that I'm picky about the women I like.
 
The amount of women you enjoy relationships with has no bearing on the amount you would enjoy a relationship with a man.  I don't think a lesbian is a woman who enjoys women 99% of the time, and a man 1% of the time.  A lesbian could equally be someone who prefers men 99% of the time, women 1% of the time, but the 1% of the women she enjoys, she finds truly and completely satisfying, and seeks such a relationship almost exclusively.
 
Stephan

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 2:24:19 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
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As I see it, choice strongly implies that a person decides based upon free will. I did not choose to be a gay male and i did not choose to live my life as one. This is also true to that many did not choose to be heterosexual nor did they choose to live a heterosexual way of life. I do not understand exactly why a person's sexual orientation is the way it is, all I know that this is who I am and it is impossible for me to change my orientation unless some supreme miracle happened. I may "experiment" with heterosexuality but that is as far as it goes. So until some verified expert can prove beyond a doubt, then one person is not able to change another person's sexual orientation.


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RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 3:55:31 PM   
Corvidae


Posts: 82
Joined: 3/18/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Also, and briefly, you make assessments in a manner that I think isn't accurate.  To say you prefer women 95% of the time might be true, but has nothing to do with what sort of relationships you enjoy with men (or not.)  I only find about 5% of the women I interact with on a daily basis attractive.  Does that mean I'm 95% gay?  Hardly!  It means that I'm picky about the women I like.
 
The amount of women you enjoy relationships with has no bearing on the amount you would enjoy a relationship with a man.  I don't think a lesbian is a woman who enjoys women 99% of the time, and a man 1% of the time.  A lesbian could equally be someone who prefers men 99% of the time, women 1% of the time, but the 1% of the women she enjoys, she finds truly and completely satisfying, and seeks such a relationship almost exclusively.
 
Stephan

Ok, so we can agree to disagree on the labels we attach to ourselves and others. However, this is a different matter. For one thing, I didn't say I prefered women 95% of the time, I said that 95% of the people I am attracted to are women (for me this is an important destinction, even if it is one you don't make). I never said anything about whether the amount of women I have relationships with has any bearing on how much I might enjoy relationships with men. That you only find 5% of the women you interact with to be attractive has nothing to do with this. I am not saying that I am attracted to 95% of women and 5% of men. All I said was that 9.5 times out of 10 the person I find myself falling for is a woman. That's all.
and to anyone else reading this who is wondering what we're talking about, Stephann is refering to my post http://www.collarchat.com/m_1773772/tm.htm

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 4:25:05 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		So, I just lost the post I was making.  Damned Internet Explorer.
 
I'll make version two short.  I'll use myself as an example.

I'm attracted to bad assed chicks.  I always have been.  The more tattoos, piercings, crazy hair, crazy clothes, the hotter they are.  I have this enormous desire to 'save' her from some miserable torment she puts herself through, while still keeping that tough streak that makes her unique.  Goth girls go at the top of that list.  Yet most goth girls would make horrible relationship partners.  I want a house, kids, a normal life for the most part.  For this reason, I know that what I might find attractive doesn't necessarily mean that person would be good for me.

For a man/woman to like men/women sexually, doesn't necessarily mean s/he'll be happy in a relationship with a man/woman.  It just means there's an attraction.  This is sexual orientation (heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual), and distinctly different from gender preference (Straight, Gay, Lesbian, Pansexual.)

Stephan


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 5:21:05 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

So, I just lost the post I was making.  Damned Internet Explorer.
 
I'll make version two short.  I'll use myself as an example.

I'm attracted to bad assed chicks.  I always have been.  The more tattoos, piercings, crazy hair, crazy clothes, the hotter they are.  I have this enormous desire to 'save' her from some miserable torment she puts herself through, while still keeping that tough streak that makes her unique.  Goth girls go at the top of that list.  Yet most goth girls would make horrible relationship partners.  I want a house, kids, a normal life for the most part.  For this reason, I know that what I might find attractive doesn't necessarily mean that person would be good for me.

For a man/woman to like men/women sexually, doesn't necessarily mean s/he'll be happy in a relationship with a man/woman.  It just means there's an attraction.  This is sexual orientation (heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual), and distinctly different from gender preference (Straight, Gay, Lesbian, Pansexual.)

Stephan



Bravo Stephan 
I think I need to save this post {to my special page}.
I agree there can be a difference between relationship orientation and sexual orientation.
That would explain the GREAT number of men interested and craving "forced bisexual activity".
Sexual orientation vs. Gender preference!
You could add even "Situational Preference" when forced,encouraged, prompted, ordered, etc.
Thanks for breaking it down, Stephan. 

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RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 5:29:06 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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quote:

He just wants me to experience the female side of things more, because my heart was broken by a female once and He wants me to fill that void.


This is an interesting sentence that no one's picked up on.

Shaobaihu, were you in a relationship with this woman? If so, might you be somewhat bi already?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 5:30:28 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Tell that to the lesbians I've had sex with.


They were slumming?

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 5:40:48 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Some people are more flexible, sexually, than others;


I think this is an important point. Dear Dr. Kinsey formulated a zero (exclusively heterosexual) to six (exclusively homosexual) scale for sexual orientation. My hunch would be that someone in the 2-4 range might indeed be open to "switching teams" in order to please a dom/me. As for a Kinsey 6 like me, on the other hand, ain't gonna happen.

quote:

it's no different than any other appetite.


This is a bit too blithe for me. I think humans define themselves by sexual role/orientation in a way and with a ferocity that we bring to few other "appetites." We don't, for instance, see broccoli eaters striving to amend the Constitution to prevent turnip fans from marrying. And I've yet to hear of anyone's being killed for preferring white wine to red.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 6:35:58 PM   
Corvidae


Posts: 82
Joined: 3/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

This is sexual orientation (heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual), and distinctly different from gender preference (Straight, Gay, Lesbian, Pansexual.)

Stephan


Ok, so this was the source of the majority of my head banging with regards to your earlier responses (and now I am not banging my head quite as much). At least for myself, when referring to myself, I don't make a destinction between the terms lesbian and homosexual (yes, I have at times identified as lesbian). For me, and I think for a lot of people who identify as gay/lesbian, these terms (homosexual-gay and homosexual-lesbian) are synonamous. Therefore it rubbed me the wrong way when you said that being gay or lesbian is a lifestyle choice (and I'm pretty sure it rubbed several other people the wrong way too).

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RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 6:59:32 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaobaihu

Has any one ever encountered a Master who has thought of making His straight or bi girl a lesbian?

He'd be shooting himself in the arse so to speak if he did....
anyway he'd have to be some sort of god I don't know about a master to change mine or anyone else's orientation would he not?


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RE: orientation decisions - 4/8/2008 7:04:34 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Awww come on Pookie, I will convert you!

Now that's the kind of congregation I like....a whole load of converts yahoooooo!


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: orientation decisions - 4/9/2008 12:11:01 AM   
ResidentSadist


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Status: offline 		Often, if enviromental conditioning changes, so can perspectives and sexual identity.  Sexual orientation is a matter of perspective from enviromental conditioning.  You aren't born gay or hetro.  You are born pansexual or omnisexual.  If it feels good hump it.  Getting a hetro to explore what would have been a normal phase of their sexual developement isnt so far fetched.

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RE: orientation decisions - 4/9/2008 4:58:57 AM   
HalloweenWhite


Posts: 1028
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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

sure you can...just like you can change genitalia with parts from your car...like a TRANS on a mission.



lmao

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Profile   Post #: 40
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