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Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 5:58:15 AM   
kass3


Posts: 35
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline 		I’m in need of some advice from mistresses or subs who are interested in the topic of female supremacy and the role of the sub in that style of relationship.

My boyfriend has always described himself as believing in female supremacy, saying that men have been given a chance to dominate and failed miserably. He does at times speak about this belief to people outside the bdsm world and explained his beliefs as being more than a sexual expression. In short his beliefs are based on an academic and social justification more than a sexual or personal belief.  

He is very well educated and we speak often of these beliefs of his in terms of how we want our relationship to be structured, we separate our bdsm interest from those of female supremacy. In essence I don’t require him to be a ‘sissy’ at all, think a reversal of 1950s attitudes, in which we agreed for him to be obedient, respectful, useful and generally submissive. He tries to treat women in general as superior to men- he’s not a doormat however and will stand up for himself if need arises.

First question:
I’m asking whether people have come across men who desire to be submissive to women (in and out of the bedroom) who may not actually have submissive tendencies but are acting from some form of social/academic belief instead. Sometimes it seems like a fight for him to remain in the role he has set for himself and I want to know if this is common.  

Second Question (advice needed):
I am a member of rovers and on occasion I bring him along to activities. The feeling at these types of events is quite masculine, with a ratio of two or three men to every woman present. I know he enjoys participating but after suffering jibes about being ‘pussy-whipped’ or that I wear the pants, he has begun to act more macho. In part I think because he was embarrassed (peer-pressure) and part because he was mirroring the men around him.  

He knows he does this and is apologetic after the fact but still finds himself acting inappropriately towards me during the events. He seems unable to analyse his own actions and motivations, maybe he’s scared of what he’ll discover about himself.  

At no point in our relationship either the bdsm side or the female supremacy side do I humiliate or even embarrass him as he has always responded very badly to this (something to do with bullying when he was younger I think). Anyway, this is important because it affects the way I deal with issues when they arise such as public scolding (which I never do) for inappropriate behavior. I have to be very careful about not making him feel embarrassed in social situations which normally isn’t a problem as our normal group of friends are really accepting of the way we act towards each other. But at rovers it’s different and this is where the problem starts. 

Logically I should punish him and or not allow him to join me at the events. BUT there in something in the fact that he enjoys them so much, he acts in a way that is traditionally masculine and maybe he finds some release in that (i.e. hanging with the boys). He becomes more physically active, laughing easier and speaking louder and I can’t help but think that maybe it’s good for him to have this outlet.  

Normally he would never sign himself up to these kinds of events (eg. Hiking, canoeing, 4X4 driving, etc), I am the one who brings him to them and exposes him to a group of very masculine men who act very differently to his normal peer group.  

My options as I see them (feel free to suggest your own)
Bring him along and let him enjoy himself and class it as a vacation from our respective roles – Even though it’s his belief in female supremacy that makes our relationship as strict as it is on this front- I am much milder and believe that each gender has its strengths and weaknesses, but I support him in his beliefs and they suit our relationship.

Simply not bring him along –even though he enjoys them so much and they tests his beliefs (which is always good)

Allow him to come and punish him afterwards – Probably pointless as it would mean punishing him after every event with no improvement
Allow him to come but be stricter during the event –I’m not sure that it would be appropriate to punish him during the event (in these matters we use a style of Domestic Discipline eg. Switching, paddling etc) as it would cause him to feel less part of the group and probably increase his embarrassment. We try to avoid this at all costs as he has never been able to handle humiliation well. And I can’t scold him in front of the others either or make it obvious that I’m telling him off.

Speak to the men (as I am good friends with all of them) and explain the situation and ask them not to hassle him about being ‘whipped’ or encourage him to act increasingly macho. – This may backfire and add insult to injury – I just don’t know- I think the guys see themselves as helping him by encouraging him to be more masculine    

Normally I would discuss this with him and we’d work it out together but every time I bring it up, he just falls quiet and tells me how sorry he is that that next time he’ll try to be better. We both know he won’t. But he begs to be brought along and I feel horrible not bringing him (which is what I’m doing at the moment) and the guys ask after him, saying that I ‘left the wife at home’. 

What would you suggest both in terms of taking him to the events and in relation to female supremacy (a possibly not completely submissive man forcing himself into that role all the time)? Should I encourage him to explore that part of himself even if he has asked me to help him overcome it?  

< Message edited by kass3 -- 4/4/2008 6:02:56 AM >
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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 9:34:01 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Hi there,

Just a few thoughts.  You've obviously discussed things with him (the first step) and you've identified that it's an issue he needs to resolve.

Letting him step outside of his accepted role when it's convenient for him sounds like bad discipline to me.  Let him take an inch, expect him to take a mile.  You'll only be opening the door to greater troubles, I think.

If he enjoys the rovers activities, you might suggest he attend them separately.  He goes on one event, you go on another; after all it was your interest to begin with.  This will give him a chance to establish his own friendships independantly for a while.  Once he's established himself in the pecking order, it won't be so hard for the guys to see him treating you deferentially.  Guys know that some guys will do anything for a woman he loves.  Play on that, and in a couple months things should resolve themselves.

Good luck!

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 9:45:07 AM   
LadyPaige


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Question 1:  I haven't met a man who expressed belief in Female Supremecy who didn't have submissive tendencies, but I do walk in BDSM circles so that's not surprising.

Question 2:  I vote for option 1.   Leaving him home seems like it will take away from a source of healthy activity.  You already pointed out the drawbacks of the other options.  As long as he still treats you respectfully and with consideration I don't see the harm in letting him be a little more macho.  You say that you would never embarrass him in public, but that's exactly what happens when the men rib him.  If you step in and ask them not to.... even I cringe at that idea. 

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 10:12:35 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

In short his beliefs are based on an academic and social justification  


I am curious about those. For the rest....I think we are equal, but just in different roles..which we choose.

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~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 10:25:10 AM   
TwistedLeather


Posts: 189
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		A man should be a man... whether he's kneeling at a woman's feet, or serving another man as his footstool. When not being used, what's wrong with him standing tall and being a man? Then again, all i can do is laugh my little butt off when i see a man dressed up as a girly-boy with frills and lace. SO not my thing, but anyway... if you won't humiliate him in public, let him be a man, but make it clear that he's to be respectful to you at all times. As was mentioned, he could play off the fact that he'll do anything for the woman he loves, and that he enjoys spoiling you. It's not far from the truth, if you think about it. He's going to have to learn to take the jibes and laugh them off. He should be proud of you, and proud of the relationship, but maybe that mind set will take some time.

By my simple opinion, your methods of punishment aren't working. So, try something else. You could always put a pebble in his shoe each time he acts out. It's small and discrete, but will make quite and impression, especially if he's walking alot! You could try using a remote insertable that's uncomfortable to him, and when you hit the button... May get the point across. You could also try putting on some sort of harness under his clothes, and when you need to, snug it up a notch. The other guys will probably think you two are just hugging or being playful. my point is... punishment doesn't have to be obvious to everyone around you to be effective. It doesn't have to be big to leave a huge impression. Find something small and discrete so you don't have to humiliate him, and he won't get razzed by the "macho" men around him for it happening.

And always, always... when you get home, talk to him about what happened. Maybe even give the lecture thing in the car on the way home, then have him find "his corner" and think about it for a while.

_____________________________

Wishing you lots of whacks and giggles!

www.americantwistedleather.com

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 1:26:19 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		Let me see if I got this straight.  He goes out with the boys and acts like a boy and you wanna do what???? punish him for acting like a boy...  Whats wrong with this picture? 

BadOne

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 1:51:52 PM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		I think the social pressure to be a "manly man" is ridiculously strong in most social circles. So, it doesn't surprise me that your "boyfriend" is having trouble with this, and by extension, your power dynamic is suffering. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to continue to bring him with you to these rovers events (I'm unfamiliar with this group, what is it?), but, you need a renewed sense of clarity of your expectations of him, behaviorally. To that end, you might want to review what your present protocols are and have an honest discussion with him regarding what makes it so difficult to maintain those protocols in certain company. (And no, I would not advise you to go have a talk with his buddies...unless of course it would have some sort of overall healing benefit for him. But I'm not sure it would.) And before having this discussion, I would lay down certain ground rules, such as, stop apologizing already and stop promising never to do something again that we both know you will do again unless we can resolve this issue. BE CLEAR. And if you want this issue to be resolved, work diligently toward it, but maintain a sense of reality.

If you choose to go into more detail about how exactly you want him to behave in public, it might give us a better sense of how to further advise you. But otherwise, we're all taking shots in the dark. But one thing is really clear, if you want to have some sort of D/s dynamic with this fellow, you're both going to have to sit down and negotiate a dynamic that is sustainable and satisfactory to you both...otherwise, it ain't gonna work.

Be well,

MNN

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 2:20:11 PM   
Wickad


Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

I guess I wonder how being manly means being disrespectful.  It sounds to me like your bf needs to come to terms with his inner demons surrounding male/female roles. 

As to what you should do about the social situations ... don't take any bullshit from him.  This doesn't mean you need to humilliate him publically but it does mean that you need to assert yourself and make your expectations of him very clear.

Just my thoughts,
Wickad

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 3:37:38 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I would think in  a very vanilla situation your relationship could go "on hold" for a while. I don't see a submissive taking advantage of the situation, especially if you set some ground rules vis-a-vis his behaviour towards you.

I find it interesting that he thinks that because men have "balls" the world up, that females are superior. I think a matriacal society would be more peaceful than one run by males, but i don't necessarily think that that makes women superior - just hard wired for peace and getting-alongness. However it is an interesting concept.

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 5:34:29 PM   
ThinkingKitten


Posts: 447
Joined: 6/15/2006
From: Ontari-ari-o
Status: offline 		The old saying comes to mind: "When in Rome...."
If the rovers groups are blatantly vanilla, then I don't think you need to be imposing your beliefs on them (directly, or indirectly). As long as your SO is not rude or disrespectul in a manner that you wouldn't tolerate under any circumstances - vanilla or with D/s connotation, then I'd say as long as you are both enjoying it, go with the flow. If he does get out of hand for any reason, then rather than trying to find some punishment I'd be more inclined to discuss it afterwards and try to find solutions as to how he could have better handled the situation/strategies to handle it should it happen again.

No need to cut off your nose to spite your face (or his too....)

_____________________________

Thinking Kitten

If you can't stand the heat... tell the chef to get out of the kitchen.

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 6:10:35 PM   
ownandkeep


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/2/2006
Status: offline 		n


< Message edited by ownandkeep -- 4/4/2008 6:18:48 PM >

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 6:26:22 PM   
kass3


Posts: 35
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you all who have posted replies, some very useful suggestions! A couple of general notes that might clarify a few things.

My boyfriends interest in female supremacy is not in generally bdsm based as in it continues outside the bedroom and outside our relationship. Not all people who are interested female supremacy as interested in bdsm (and of course visa-versa). In discussing this topic, I am not the one who is trying to force my boyfriend to act in a way against his nature! I know it's hard for some men to believe but he genuinely wants me to help him act less traditionally masculine (NOT feminine) instead he wants to act in a way that invites all women to take the lead when dealing with him. 

This is where the issue arises as I do not hold his belief in female supremacy but do support him in trying to live his life expressing that belief. So when he steps out bounds in the role he himself created I feel torn about what to do in this instance. I'm not saying he cannot be a man, only that he not act in ways that place women in positions of lower power or insult them.

Some of the things he's done that would normally be inappropriate are (Please bare in mind that this is in the context of female supremacy): Putting a male suggestion over that of a woman, not coming over when I ask him to, using inapropriate terms to refer to women, using inappropriate terms when speaking about sex with women, speaking down to a woman (not me), excluding a woman from a conversation with the 'guys', etc. He even laughed when a joke was told that subjugated women (you know the type- barefoot and pregnant).

Those of you who said we need to talk more- I know you are right but I wish it was easier to get him to relfect on his behaviour- I'm thinking maybe essay writing. What do you think?

Rovers is group for 18-26yr old people (scouts) who create a 'crew' and do activites with them each week- usually outdoors such as hiking, canoeing, etc. Almost every weekend there are general events that people can attend that bring together all the regional crews that usually run between two and four days in which other activites occur (usually the more expensive or hard to organise like scubadiving, 4X4 driving ) or courses are run (eg First Aid, CPR, flight etc) and usually a LOT of drinking etc. Believe me when I say that it's FUN! But not my bf's usual crowd.

Stephann: It's true that some men would do anything for the women they love !!! We can't attend different events because I'm the member, he can only attend events with me and to actually join would take a LOT of effort as he'd have to go through squiring and I don't know if I want him to join my group as the same issues would arrise every time he went to a meeting (which is every week) and the closest other group is an hours drive away. Shame that's not an option becuase I can see your logic there.

LadyPaige: I guess that it's common for people to see female supremacy only in it's bdsm form and as some posts on this topic shows don't understand the general idea, thank for the honesty. I agree with you that I really can't step in and speak with the guys but I'm still in two minds about letting him off the hook.

TwistedLeather: LOL! I don't make him wear frills!!! and I certainly would never MAKE my bf act against his male nature EXCEPT he asked me to help him do just that!!! Your ideas about punnihsment are wonderful! I will most certainly be trying some of them out - but not the rock in the shoe on a hike that is cruel and unusual punnishment believe I'm talking from experience- it can drive you insane. But I think maybe the harness might help :) thank you so much!And corner time is always a good idea, maybe an essay on where he went wrong. What do you think?

SailingBum: -please keep an open mind. HE is looking for exactly that! Please read my explanation of his interest in this more closely

MistressNoName: I agree that we definitely need to speak on this further and belive me when I say that i work very hard to maintain a sense of reality. He seems to think that he can change the world while i think all he can do is change himself. See above for the innapropriate behaviour.

Wickad: we're not trying to bring in kink to a vanilla environment (lol, in this particular group it would probably go down better than asking a man to act less macho)


Again Thank you everyone for your useful replies and I will most definetely take on some of your advice.







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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 8:11:12 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Hiya,

If he has to attend your group, I'd lay down the law.  Act within expected, defined rules of behavior.  Period.  No "or else."  If he wants to be part of your group, he does it on your terms.  "Boys will be boys" is exactly what ends up with lack of discipline.  I know I'm coming off like a hard ass; I just know that my slave gets a lot of flak in her personal life for being so submissive to me, and it's something that has helped us grow closer, not further apart.  Either his friends will appreciate the kind man that he is for who he is, or they won't and won't ever need to.

The other option might be to send him to the nearest rovers for two weeks, just to flex some muscle and point out that if he wants to be in your world, he does it on your terms or that's what he can expect to go through in the future.

Frankly, I think it's great that you two share this interest; I'm only pointing out that for it to work long term, without having you end up regretting bringing him along and feeling miserable, you're going to have to lay down the law.  Only you can decide how much BS you're willing to take from your man.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 8:30:00 PM   
Smythe


Posts: 369
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
I think he is punishing himself for not meeting a standard that he set for himself.

I know this sounds convoluted, but if you feel like you need to punish him for not adhering to a standard that originated with him, he is really the one running the show and it seems apparent that he wouldn't want that.

It's nice that you are helping him indulge his thing about female supremacy, but to be honest, he sounds kind of dominant in his insistence that he is submissive.

Anyway, you should think about what YOU want and do it.
Smythe




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Do not consider painful what is good for you.
Euripides

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/4/2008 8:38:42 PM   
Wickad


Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

To the OP,

I, and I assume quite a few others, do not see FS as being a part of BDSM exclusively.  Holding a belief that women are superior (for whatever reasons) does not mean that the person in question is interested in masochistic or sadistic type activities.

That being said, treating a woman in a chauvinistic manner does not reflect a belief that women are superior.  I do not advocate taking your D/s dynamic into a vanilla group.  What I do advocate is not putting up with anyone's (that includes vanilla folks') chauvinistic behaviour just because you are in a testosterone charged environment.  He will have to recognize that there will be many challenges to his living his life in a way that holds true to his belief in FS.  This is one of those times.

I wish you all the best with your relationship and this latest hurdle you are working to overcome.

Wickad

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/5/2008 1:48:18 AM   
LadyPaige


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kass3

Some of the things he's done that would normally be inappropriate are (Please bare in mind that this is in the context of female supremacy): Putting a male suggestion over that of a woman, not coming over when I ask him to, using inapropriate terms to refer to women, using inappropriate terms when speaking about sex with women, speaking down to a woman (not me), excluding a woman from a conversation with the 'guys', etc. He even laughed when a joke was told that subjugated women (you know the type- barefoot and pregnant).



OK, now I see what you were talking about.  Obviously some of these behaviors do show that it's more than peer pressure, it sounds like he's "getting into" the macho role.  The examples you cited are ones that he can change and it would probably go unnoticed.  I like TwistedLeather's suggestions too *taking notes*

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/5/2008 2:45:19 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		the "rude manly males"or not more then what "extreme feminist" are in the female group.
Both are blind and intollerate

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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/5/2008 7:37:01 AM   
TheChastiser


Posts: 95
Joined: 10/16/2005
From: Hemel Hempstead
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kass3

I’m in need of some advice from mistresses or subs who are interested in the topic of female supremacy   


its an oxymoron.

Mike

_____________________________



Let Me unchain your mind and your sexuality will follow.


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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/5/2008 7:41:48 AM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline 		Kass3,

Here is what I might say to him: "I want to support you in your mentality of female supremacy but I - don't understand/cannot put up with/whatever the words may be - when you obviously stray from this attitude and perception of women under certain circumstances. If you are using the idea that women are superior as a basis for your behavior in the world, it needs to be consistent or else it means noting. If you can shed your beliefs so easily or are ok with pretending to be a macho male when in the company of macho males, then you need to re-examine your own values. If female supremacy is in fact what you believe in, then you need to commit to living and behaving that way at all times rather than when it is convenient."

My partner is not a female supremacist, technically, but he certainly shows women much respect in his everyday life - and not just me. I don't even think it's conscious, it's just part of him to be a very sweet and respectful guy. At the same time, he sometimes will say things in humor or in exasperation that are not respectful to women. I usually find it funny if it's a joke, or warranted if it's out of frustration, or I just shrug it off as a human needing to vent. This doesn't mean that his behavior isn't wonderful 99% of the time. I don't believe in perfection and I, being a chauvanistic pig sometimes myself, can understand crude and sometimes demeaning humor, so it doesn't bother me. You'll have to decide what's tolerable to you and then just let him work within those confines. If 0% disrespectful or macho male behavior is acceptable then so be it. If you can live with him being perfectly aligned with female supremacy in his thoughts and behaviors 95% of the time, then go with that. Ultimately, figure out what works for you...but my above paragraph is still valid, in my opinion, I'd want to know what's going on in his head that he's able to just throw his supposed belief system out the window here and there.

_____________________________

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- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to Wickad)
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RE: Female Supremacy and the one who acted out... - 4/5/2008 8:09:18 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Boys will be boys. That's all I can say. The most forward thinkers will degenerate at times within the mob mentality when boys get together. It just happens.  Sometimes we just have to put up with outdated attitudes to get along with others and over time, through our own actions and gentle arguments, work at changing others views. He would get nothing out of challenging these men, it would only make him a target. But what he can do is over time, show them another way to interact with women.

I don't think you can or should try to control how he does or doesn't stand up for his own beliefs of femal supremacy. These are his beliefs. How much conviction does he really have if he allows others to rudely denigrate woman and laughs along with it? It's not up to him to apologize to you, you weren't disrespected, HE WAS. If he has told these men what his beliefs are, and they have continued to rudely disrespect them, then they are disrespecting him, and it's up to him to demand respect. On the other hand, if he has never told them of his beliefs, then he's disrespecting himself and that's something he needs to deal with himself. The truth is that men deal with this dilemma all the time.

Also, there is a certain amount of fantasy in all of this chest thumping. I have to admit when I get together with the girls, sometimes we go totally overboard in the men bashing area. Joking about how the perfect man would simply follow me around the store carrying my bags and opening his wallet on command. Do I really believe that? No, it's just taking girl-power to it's extreme and having some fun. There was a thread a while back on the Mistress forum that asked how many Dommes believed in femaly supremacy and most said they did not. Many said they enjoyed it as a fantasy or role play but didnt' really buy it as a philosophy. So male supremacy is much the same thing and a lot of what goes on when the boys get together is just talk. What is important is actions. Does he treat women and most importantly YOU with respect. As long as he does that I would let him enjoy the trips and act a little macho.

Although....now that I think of it....don't you think all that chest thumping is a perfect set up for some wicked play?


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