RE: Suspension by Wrists

RE: Suspension by Wrists (Full Version)

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SNoB -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 12:50:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Guilty1974 quote: ORIGINAL: sadomasokisti In my suspension play I try to use a knot (kind of quick release hitch) in which I can release by just pulling the end of the rope and then lower the victim safely to the floor. I secure the quick release loop of the hitch with the loose end of the same rope. That's a reasonably safe way to use a quick release hitch. quote: ORIGINAL: SNoB Well, my plan has always been, lower them with my hoist, then cut once they are on the floor. Its never had to happen, and I hope it never will. But using a hoist (either up or down) creates highly unpredictable forces on a suspended body. So that method too has it's own risks. Besides, most japanese style riggers don't use hoists anyway. Its a rope hoist with 4 pulley blocks, it creates VERY predicatble forces, I think the math is a 7 to 1 ratio, so 7 feet of rope to lower the ring 1 foot. And the "most japanese style riggers" comment isnt true, the ones who have 95 pound bondage bottoms dont use hoists.

LadyHugs -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 12:22:21 PM)
Dear Guilty1974, I use panic snaps for equines. (Equines - Horses, which are approximately 1,700 - 1,900 lbs each with that torque added into it). Respectfully submitted, Lady Hugs

UncleNasty -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 2:48:34 PM)
Whatever means you use to suspend someone remember there is a difference between a live load and a dead load. 150 lbs of potaoes is a dead load. 150 lbs of jiggling, jerking submissive is a live load, and that adds considerably to the forces at play. If using ropes also consider that nylon degrades over time all by itself, as do other fibers both natural and synthetic. A climbing rope purchased new today and stored in dark, climate (humidity and temp) controlled envorinment, safe from UV exposure, abrasion and chemical exposure, will still degrade enough that it is unsafe to use. This may perhaps be more true for the thinner ropes more commonly used in dungeons. Avoid "single point of failure" rigging. Back up everything. Check your equipment often, and know its history. There are risks in suspension play. I don't think it is possible to be too careful or too safe. A little fear and paranoia can go a long way in avoiding accidents. Safety is a mindset. Accidents are rarely isolated incidents. Usually more of a series of only mildly questionable decisions. And lastly, heros usually die. When in doubt don't do it. Uncle Nasty, a former wilderness guide/high adventure teacher/instructor/facilitator with tons of risk assessment and risk management experience.

Rockbound -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 5:01:59 PM)
Here's what I've always considered the authoritative article on the subject: http://www.lovingdominant.org/suspend.html

ImpGrrl -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 6:15:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist I never hang someone from wrist for more than fifteen minutes-and only if they have no medical issues with the upper body. Padded cuffs are good if you have them. Longer should probably involve a harness, with some sort of crotch strapping to support the torso. No...no...no...no crotch strapping for supporting weight. VERY dangerous... "Harness-Induced Death Wide ranges of situations require safety harnesses of various types. Workers requiring fall protection, workers entering many confined spaces, mountain climbers, deer hunters in elevated stands, and cave explorers all try to protect themselves through the use of safety harnesses, belts, and seats. What is little known however, is that these harnesses can also kill. Harnesses can become deadly whenever a worker is suspended for duration over five minutes in an upright posture, with the legs relaxed straight beneath the body. This can occur in many different situations in industry. A carpenter working alone is caught in mid-fall by his safety harness, only to die 15 minutes later from suspension trauma. An electrical worker is lowered into a shaft after testing for toxic gases. He is lowered on a cable and is positioned at the right level to repair a junction box. After five minutes he is unconscious--but his buddies tending the line don't realize it, and 15 minutes later a dead body is hauled out. The cause of this problem is called "suspension trauma." Fall protection researchers have recognized this phenomenon for decades. " http://www.cdc.gov/eLCOSH/docs/d0500/d000568/d000568.html I do not let my crew members use harnesses that involve the crotch as the major part of the suspension point, due to the phenomenon described in the link above. Suspension of any sort for prolonged periods is iffy and should only be done with proper planning and equipment, and even then for short durations. "Harness hang syndrome" is caused by blood pooling and stagnating in the legs, collecting toxins...and then returning to the heart/brain quickly. Hanging from a crotch-based suspension in and of itself isn't dangerous, as long as there's adequate circulation within the position, or adequate circulation is created by the bottom moving their legs around often, and when they are returned to the ground, keeping the legs well below the heart to give the older blood more time to dilute as it reaches the heart.

ImpGrrl -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 6:21:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SNoB It should be obvious why slip knotts arent a good idea. We use quick-release knots - but they aren't "slip knots". They are the same half-hitches you'd normally use - only the final end isn't pulled through. If the end rope isn't in a position to be accidentally pulled (I think guilty mentioned clubs - lots of drinking drugging folks milling around wouldn't be a good place to use these), they hold just as well as a "regular" knot, but are easy to undo in a hurry.

ImpGrrl -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/4/2008 6:22:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lynnxz I have no doubts about the gear being used, we are using a massive winch that is normally used for tossing steel beams around, so tthats no problem either. My concern was just about my shoulders, but my friend and I have just welded a short suspension bar, that should have my hands directly over my shoulders, instead of together over my head. ^_^ Be sure that it's a winch that is smooth, not jerky - jerky winches + delicate joints = injuries.

DS4DUMMIES -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/5/2008 4:01:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl quote: ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist I never hang someone from wrist for more than fifteen minutes-and only if they have no medical issues with the upper body. Padded cuffs are good if you have them. Longer should probably involve a harness, with some sort of crotch strapping to support the torso. No...no...no...no crotch strapping for supporting weight. VERY dangerous... "Harness-Induced Death Wide ranges of situations require safety harnesses of various types. Workers requiring fall protection, workers entering many confined spaces, mountain climbers, deer hunters in elevated stands, and cave explorers all try to protect themselves through the use of safety harnesses, belts, and seats. What is little known however, is that these harnesses can also kill. Harnesses can become deadly whenever a worker is suspended for duration over five minutes in an upright posture, with the legs relaxed straight beneath the body. This can occur in many different situations in industry. A carpenter working alone is caught in mid-fall by his safety harness, only to die 15 minutes later from suspension trauma. An electrical worker is lowered into a shaft after testing for toxic gases. He is lowered on a cable and is positioned at the right level to repair a junction box. After five minutes he is unconscious--but his buddies tending the line don't realize it, and 15 minutes later a dead body is hauled out. The cause of this problem is called "suspension trauma." Fall protection researchers have recognized this phenomenon for decades. " http://www.cdc.gov/eLCOSH/docs/d0500/d000568/d000568.html I do not let my crew members use harnesses that involve the crotch as the major part of the suspension point, due to the phenomenon described in the link above. Suspension of any sort for prolonged periods is iffy and should only be done with proper planning and equipment, and even then for short durations. "Harness hang syndrome" is caused by blood pooling and stagnating in the legs, collecting toxins...and then returning to the heart/brain quickly. Hanging from a crotch-based suspension in and of itself isn't dangerous, as long as there's adequate circulation within the position, or adequate circulation is created by the bottom moving their legs around often, and when they are returned to the ground, keeping the legs well below the heart to give the older blood more time to dilute as it reaches the heart. The issue...for which no solution has yet been found according to our safety gurus at BP, is developing a harness that can do what you're noting is needed. We use aboard ship, a fall protection harness that that treats the legs with wrap-around straps and a harness of their own, cover, and is tied structurally into the rest of the body harness,. Still exposure to suspension in it is 5 minutes or less.

JohnWarren -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/5/2008 5:25:57 PM)
This might help. It's part of the text from the second edition of The Loving Dominant. http://www.lovingdominant.org/suspend.html

Guilty1974 -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (4/6/2008 2:16:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SNoB Its a rope hoist with 4 pulley blocks, it creates VERY predicatble forces, I think the math is a 7 to 1 ratio, so 7 feet of rope to lower the ring 1 foot. It still creates unpredicatble forces within the suspended persons body if you pull them up or down. quote: And the "most japanese style riggers" comment isnt true, the ones who have 95 pound bondage bottoms dont use hoists. Actually the comment is true. Most Japanese style riggers don't use hoists, not even in the west (western style riggers sometimes do). The point is, they add danger (unpredictable forces on the body) while not being necessary. Not even for inverted suspensions. And I've suspended people up to about twice the weight you mention above (without hoist) :-) On the contary, in japanese films like mai randa's the extremely light models are sometimes hoisted - without using a hoist.

Esinem -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (5/4/2008 8:19:21 PM)
You can buy stainless steel marine quick release snaps which I reckon are quite strong enough and have been grateful of mine, most recently when a bondage model felt sick suddenly. Avoid the cast metal snaps, too weak. Be careful of winches as a sudden jerk with arms extended can stretch the brachial plexus damaging the nerves therein. Any digging in between the hand and wrist bone risks ulnar/radial damage http://www.esinem.com/misc/nerve damage part 1a.pdf. In rope suspensions, the model is usually supporting themselves by holding the rope. Wide cuffs sound the way forward.

apiercedkitty -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (5/4/2008 8:43:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl "Harness hang syndrome" is caused by blood pooling and stagnating in the legs, collecting toxins...and then returning to the heart/brain quickly. Hanging from a crotch-based suspension in and of itself isn't dangerous, as long as there's adequate circulation within the position, or adequate circulation is created by the bottom moving their legs around often, and when they are returned to the ground, keeping the legs well below the heart to give the older blood more time to dilute as it reaches the heart. Ok, i have to jump in here. It's NOT caused by "collecting toxins." And the blood doesn't go from the legs to the brain. It's caused by a lack of blood returning to the right side of the heart (blood pooling in the legs). There is no way to "dilute" the "old blood" coming out of the legs before it reaches the heart. stepping off my nursing soap-box

sadomasokisti -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (5/5/2008 3:49:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: apiercedkitty quote: ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl "Harness hang syndrome" is caused by blood pooling and stagnating in the legs, collecting toxins...and then returning to the heart/brain quickly. Hanging from a crotch-based suspension in and of itself isn't dangerous, as long as there's adequate circulation within the position, or adequate circulation is created by the bottom moving their legs around often, and when they are returned to the ground, keeping the legs well below the heart to give the older blood more time to dilute as it reaches the heart. Ok, i have to jump in here. It's NOT caused by "collecting toxins." And the blood doesn't go from the legs to the brain. It's caused by a lack of blood returning to the right side of the heart (blood pooling in the legs). There is no way to "dilute" the "old blood" coming out of the legs before it reaches the heart. stepping off my nursing soap-box I believe ImpGrrl is possibly referring to the dangers of crush syndrome which has some times been mentioned in association with suspension. Crush syndrome usually takes multiple hours to develop. The toxins come from crushed cells. If you find someone dead in suspension harness/bondage, some hours after the victim was bound up. It's possible that you will find crush syndrome. If the circulation in the body is not adequate the bottom can faint suddenly. It can happen while standing still for long periond, it can happen when bound standing to a pole, it can happen while bound in vertical suspension bondage (HHS). If nothing is done in response to the fainting death can occur.

eyesopened -> RE: Suspension by Wrists (5/5/2008 4:34:57 AM)
When i have been suspended it wasn't a full off the floor suspension but up on tiptoes so i had the option of putting weight on a portion of the ball of my feet. my legs were not tied together so i could move them as i felt it necessary. my wrists were tied but arms rather wide apart so they were not directly overhead. Again i had the option to hold with hands if i felt it necessary and so that i didn't have all my weight supported by just the wrists and/or shoulders. i was able to hold this prediciment for nearly 4 hours. The Dominant used a quick-release hitch knot that i could, if i had the presence of mind or if something happened to *him* (anyone ever read Gerald's Game by Stephen King?) where he was not able to release me, i could release myself.

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