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RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 9:18:33 AM

MistressNoName

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quote:

You crybaby environmentalists make me sick.

What an incredibly sad statement. Instead of being a complaint-hurling part of the problem...why not offer constructive suggestions and be part of the solution? The process of "going green" is just that. A process. With all of its challenges, great ideas and unanswered questions. And just because all of the answers haven't been nailed down, does not make it somehow less of a worthy goal. Sustainability is key. I heard someone say something along the lines of, (paraphrase) "it's not the planet that needs saving, it's we who live on it." In other words, whether generations down line we continue to have adequate clean air to breathe and water to drink has nothing to do with the planet...it will survive. How long it will be able to sustain human and other life, is the question...and how smart it is for humans to continue to contribute, in effect, to their own demise.

But then again, maybe you're right and I'm just a cry-baby environmentalist. Go back to your overusing, landfill-loving, global-warming ways...Personally, I'll be loading up my rocket ship in a day or two for my one-way trip off this rock. I heard about this nice, clean, sparsely inhabited planet about 5 suns away...gonna check it out...but don't you dare try to follow me!

MNN

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RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 9:20:45 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Well there is nuclear but the waste products are a problem that has never been really well handled.
It could handle the air emissions problem within a very short time, and I would concur that short term it's a good idea.

Archer,
The way I look at it in consideration to Earth History, everything humans have done and will do is "short term". If humans were to disappear today the longest lasting evidence of our existence would be Styrofoam.

Twenty nuclear plants provide one important weapon I'd use - time. It would give time to 'alternative fuels', alternative distribution networks, and alternative mass transportation methods. Were I to believe the statistics attributing death and health issues caused by pollution I'd point to the history of safety within the European power grid as a comparison. Considering the advances in conductivity technology NIMBY isn't so much a concern as it was in the 70's.

As you say it would have a quick and considerable impact.

Nuclear power may not be 'emerald green' but it is at least approaching 'Kelly green'.

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Post #: 22

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 9:41:11 AM

Moloch

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quote:

d in the majority of Europe - nuclear?

France currently gets 80% of its electricity from nuclear power from 59 plants. It actually exports 18% of its production.

The wheel is already invented.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Getting solar and wind up to speed is certainly the best route to reducing emmissions.

Best? What about the power used in the majority of Europe - nuclear?

France currently gets 80% of its electricity from nuclear power from 59 plants. It actually exports 18% of its production.

The wheel is already invented.

You know I throw mud in the direction of France pretty often... I think its partially because of envy.

If people want to improve the envorioment they need to stop treating the uterus like a clown car! why they hell do people have 5 kids when they make 7.50 an hour?! Earth can only support so many people and were are breeding like jack rabbits.

< Message edited by Moloch -- 4/3/2008 9:44:39 AM >

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RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 1:56:51 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Getting solar and wind up to speed is certainly the best route to reducing emmissions.

Best? What about the power used in the majority of Europe - nuclear?

France currently gets 80% of its electricity from nuclear power from 59 plants. It actually exports 18% of its production.

The wheel is already invented.

Mercnbeth:
Lets do some math here.
France has about 60 million people.
Eighty percent of sixty is a bit under fifty.
They do this with about sixty plants.
That would mean that the U.S. with its 300 million or so people would need six times as many plants. That is 360 nuclear plants to be built in the U.S. to achieve what France has now.
That would seem to me to require a fair amount of SAFE long term storage for the spent fuel.
This storage problem is one that France faces at this very moment and so far they have not solved it.
thompson

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Post #: 24

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 2:32:41 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Throwing the baby out with the bathwater stops reoccurrence of the bathwater.

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Post #: 25

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 2:45:45 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

That would mean that the U.S. with its 300 million or so people would need six times as many plants. That is 360 nuclear plants to be built in the U.S. to achieve what France has now.
That would seem to me to require a fair amount of SAFE long term storage for the spent fuel.
This storage problem is one that France faces at this very moment and so far they have not solved it.

Thompson,
First, if we ever got to 80% of our electricity coming from nuclear power gas, and home heating oil would be back to less than $1.00 a gallon, net of taxes. It's something to shoot for, but pragmatically I'd think 25% is a stretch.

Back to France...

Doesn't seem like they are having much of a problem with it in a country with far less remote and unpopulated areas,

quote:

France reprocesses its own spent nuclear fuel. Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Japan also send, or have sent in the past, spent nuclear fuel to France for reprocessing. High-level reprocessed waste is vitrified (solidified) and stored at La Hague for several decades, where it awaits final geologic disposal.

France has more than 30 years of experience transporting radioactive waste. Spent nuclear fuel and high-level radioactive waste are shipped by rail within France; trucks carry the materials over short distances. Five ships transport the material intercoastally. Spent nuclear fuel arrives at La Hague by train in specially designed rail cars, which are admitted without restriction into normal railway traffic.

A research program to study high-level radioactive waste disposal began with legislation enacted in 1991. The French Waste Management Research Act of December 1991 authorized 15-year studies of three management options for high-level or long half-life radioactive waste. They included separation and/or transmutation, long-term storage, and geologic disposal. One site under consideration for deep geologic disposal in clay is currently being studied. The French are also searching for a granite site to research. Source:http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0411.shtml

Then there is new technology...

quote:

The French have reprocessed power plant spent fuel rods at the COGEMA LaHague site since 1966. The French see reprocessing as ecologically sound, economical and profitable and as demonstrating scientific leadership on a world stage. Source: http://www.chemcases.com/nuclear/nc-13.htm

The US was considering something similar, contained in the same article, however President Carter stopped it. However talking about his failures is a good application of this new icon:

It seems like we can start building a solution or continue chasing a dream?

Wish there was a candidate to support who would provide a pragmatic, reality alarm clock!

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Post #: 26

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 2:55:43 PM

DesertRat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch
...they need to stop treating the uterus like a clown car!...

Absolutely true!! Not to mention so fucking funny I almost pissed myself reading it!!

I salute you.

Bob

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Post #: 27

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 9:49:13 PM

thompsonx

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Mercnbeth:
Your post echos the articles that I have read also. That France is working on but has not solved the long term storage of the spent fuel.
By long term I am referring to the time it will take for the stuff to degrade ten half lives which is in the thousands of years. When we compare this to the thirty years that France has been working on the problem that is a huge difference. When they initially thought to bury it there was a huge outcry and it was stopped in it's tracks. Now it is stored until they can find a "safe long term" solution.
The level of their technology allows them to reprocess much of the waste into new fuel which reduces the mass of what must be stored but so far they have not been able to get it to zero or even close.

thompson

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Post #: 28

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/3/2008 10:20:42 PM

luckydog1

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Don't all fluorescent lights have mercury in them? Yes, so putting hundreds of millions more of them in use seems a very bad idea.
Don't flashlights have batteries in them? Yep most have alkaline batteries, which are no where as toxic as Lead cadmium or Lithium ion
Don't all cars have batteries in them? Yes they have small batteries to get the motor started. disposing of them is an ecological nightmare currently, and far too many people dispose of improperly.
Responsible disposal of toxic waste is everyones responsibility. Which people tend to ignore, so it seems to be a very bad idea to switch to a new toxic technology, which will require a lot more effort (which people are already not doing). Especially since there are LED lights, which don't have the same proplem of toxic disposal. To buy a car battery (at Least in my state) you have to put down a deposit or return the old one. Instituting a similar process for lightbulbs has not happened yet, and probably wont. But who the hell cares about garbage men or ground water anyway, a little mercury wont hurt em. They can count on everyone living up to their responsibility all the time.,
Pointing out that toxic waste is a byproduct of our society does not mean it is not manageable.
Which in no way makes it a good policy to make un needed extra waste to deal with. Sometimes toxic waste and byproducts is un avoidable. With light bulbs it isn't.

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Post #: 29

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/4/2008 12:59:40 AM

azropedntied

Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressPav

The REAL ban needs to be put on disposable diapers! They should be banned from stores and those with turdlers should be using cloth diapers! It's better for the environment and cheaper! Wash them out in the toilet and toss them in the washer with some bleach. Very cost effective.

I will say when it says 7-10 lbs they mean it that is all those things will hold ,often times way less .

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RE: Going GREEN! - 4/4/2008 2:31:40 AM

luckydog1

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Hey, but at least the French stopped dumping it in the Pacific Ocean. After 50 years....

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Post #: 31

RE: Going GREEN! - 4/4/2008 3:48:36 AM

Sanity

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Whoever thought we'd see the day when Liberals were trying to push toxic waste down everyone's throats.

"A little bit doesn't hurt you. It doesn't matter. It's only lithium, and lead, and mercury. It's alright."

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Don't all fluorescent lights have mercury in them? Yes, so putting hundreds of millions more of them in use seems a very bad idea.
Don't flashlights have batteries in them? Yep most have alkaline batteries, which are no where as toxic as Lead cadmium or Lithium ion
Don't all cars have batteries in them? Yes they have small batteries to get the motor started. disposing of them is an ecological nightmare currently, and far too many people dispose of improperly.
Responsible disposal of toxic waste is everyones responsibility. Which people tend to ignore, so it seems to be a very bad idea to switch to a new toxic technology, which will require a lot more effort (which people are already not doing). Especially since there are LED lights, which don't have the same proplem of toxic disposal. To buy a car battery (at Least in my state) you have to put down a deposit or return the old one. Instituting a similar process for lightbulbs has not happened yet, and probably wont. But who the hell cares about garbage men or ground water anyway, a little mercury wont hurt em. They can count on everyone living up to their responsibility all the time.,
Pointing out that toxic waste is a byproduct of our society does not mean it is not manageable.
Which in no way makes it a good policy to make un needed extra waste to deal with. Sometimes toxic waste and byproducts is un avoidable. With light bulbs it isn't.

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RE: Going GREEN! - 4/4/2008 3:52:29 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Whoever thought we'd see the day when Liberals were trying to push toxic waste down everyone's throats.

"A little bit doesn't hurt you. It doesn't matter. It's only lithium, and lead, and mercury. It's alright."

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Don't all fluorescent lights have mercury in them? Yes, so putting hundreds of millions more of them in use seems a very bad idea.
Don't flashlights have batteries in them? Yep most have alkaline batteries, which are no where as toxic as Lead cadmium or Lithium ion
Don't all cars have batteries in them? Yes they have small batteries to get the motor started. disposing of them is an ecological nightmare currently, and far too many people dispose of improperly.
Responsible disposal of toxic waste is everyones responsibility. Which people tend to ignore, so it seems to be a very bad idea to switch to a new toxic technology, which will require a lot more effort (which people are already not doing). Especially since there are LED lights, which don't have the same proplem of toxic disposal. To buy a car battery (at Least in my state) you have to put down a deposit or return the old one. Instituting a similar process for lightbulbs has not happened yet, and probably wont. But who the hell cares about garbage men or ground water anyway, a little mercury wont hurt em. They can count on everyone living up to their responsibility all the time.,
Pointing out that toxic waste is a byproduct of our society does not mean it is not manageable.
Which in no way makes it a good policy to make un needed extra waste to deal with. Sometimes toxic waste and byproducts is un avoidable. With light bulbs it isn't.

So you think we should do away with electric lighting altogether Sanity?

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RE: Going GREEN! - 4/4/2008 12:35:16 PM

thompsonx

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lucky:
I too am a big fan of LED lighting. During my visit to the Consumer Electronics Show this past January I got a chance to see the latest innovations. They have a three bulb 9 watt L16 that you can plug into the same light strips that use the 70 watt high intensity bulbs...they are only a bit more expensive and they produce pretty much the same level of light.
I would agree that a lot of people chuck their car batteries but at the present time my guess is that if you were to put one on the curb most anyplace in California it would not make it overnight. The scrap yards are paying about $10 apiece for car batteries.
A simple way to solve the cfl problem is to put a bounty on them (deposit).
Since LEDs are in their consumer infancy I see the cfl as simply a step between incandescent and LED lighting. Once LEDs start being produced on a larger scale the price of purchase and use will drive all other lighting sources off of the market.
thompson

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