does the balance need redress?

does the balance need redress? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 4:54:57 AM)
Fascinating documentary last night on Channel 4; they'd asked a Tibetan exile (now a British citizen) to return to Tibet to make a secret film of the oppression there - this was all filmed a while back, before the latest troubles erupted. And the oppression is indeed heavy. The merest criticism of Chinese rule gets you carted off for a beating - anything more results in several years in prison, along with beatings. Everyone who was interviewed, including those Tibetans at the refugee centre in India who had walked for over a month through the Himalayas to escape (during which they have no food, get frostbite and have potshots taken at them by Chinese border guards - we saw two shot dead as they walked) were absolutely terrified of being identified. This I thought, (rather obviously), is awful. Such a situation, where the people are terrified of the authorities, has to change. But then I thought about our situation in the UK by comparison, where to many the authorities are that only in name and are a laughing stock for their feeble, impotent attempts at bringing about anything other than paperwork. There is no terror here, but neither is there any respect whatever for the authorities - the closest one finds is resentment; the sort of resentment a five year old has when he's told to sit in the corner for being naughty. As the executive arm of the legislature bringing about the will of the people, we're talking here about those charged with upholding the law, achieving justice, educating our children and everything else *which we as a democracy have decided by majority should come about* - and which we as individuals then grumble about and resist to the utmost extent; some more successfully than others. Comparing it to the Tibetan situation, it struck me that whilst their situation is one in which the authorities use draconian measures to produce terror and thus compliance, ours is one in which our authorities are far too oversensitive, far too lenient in approach and execution to produce anything but disrespect; our respect for the individual agenda, which is a noble aim in itself, reduces the authority of the authorities, by making the individual greater than the whole and certainly greater than the authorities. Clearly, we would not want to produce a Tibetan situation here, but do we need to redress the balance a little in favour of producing not fear, but respect for the authorities - just as much as the Chinese need to redress the balance to approach nearer our model of respect for the person? E

seeksfemslave -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:01:41 AM)
Did the programme show Tibetans attacking Chinese "immigrants" and burning and looting their shops? Only arskin'

LadyEllen -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:21:37 AM)
It was before the current troubles Seeks. Do try to read before "arskin'"? And to be fair, whilst the recent attacks on Chinese settlers were horrific, (four women burned to death in one store), one can understand even if not condone, when one considers the situation. E

seeksfemslave -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:30:06 AM)
I know it was "before" but the point is its being broadcast "now" and will be used to generate biased opinion. Get it ? When working class resentment to immigration in this country "spills over" precious little understanding seems to be shown. When Muslims burned down the local BMW garage while rioting Oop North all the " tanned" Guardianistas complained about the severity of the sentences handed out. Didn't they ? Yes they did.

meatcleaver -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:36:25 AM)
LE, respect for authority died in WWI and it was buried in WWII. What people need, is respect for each other, not authority. Never ever let us go back to respecting authority and our betters, who were rarely better than the low life people wanted to be guarded against.

LadyEllen -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:50:22 AM)
MC - understood, and we dont want to go back to the position then, but when we have a certain proportion of the population who simply laugh at that which we have decided democratically (a big difference compared to back then in itself) is to be, and consider themselves immune from sanction and so do what the hell they like - I find that we have not achieved freedom, but chaos, and we are obliged to not respect our "betters" but those who raise hell with impunity and are protected by the very same authorities they hold in such utter contempt. I accept that there has always been a strain of criminality, a tendency away from group identity - but this is new in that there is no longer any respect for the law or any respect for society as people or at large and absolutely no fear whatever for any consequences. At least in the past, there was such fear to keep things under some sort of control - but now the agencies which are meant to maintain control seem instead bent on promoting the rights of what amounts to the anarchist, which is a strange and new situation. E

LadyEllen -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:58:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I know it was "before" but the point is its being broadcast "now" and will be used to generate biased opinion. Get it ? When working class resentment to immigration in this country "spills over" precious little understanding seems to be shown. When Muslims burned down the local BMW garage while rioting Oop North all the " tanned" Guardianistas complained about the severity of the sentences handed out. Didn't they ? Yes they did. You'll get it, certainly. There cannot be any working class resentment of immigration; as you well know, the New Labour policy document 1998/03B clearly stated that this is a classless society, apart from for those animals who are more equal than others, who shall be identified by accents and verified by reference to (at that time) Inland Revenue returns. And I do so wish you would get over the immigrant thing - the vast majority of Muslims in the UK were born here Seeks, and we cant ever get a solution to our country's problems unless they are included in producing that solution, and hence taken to be included in "we" and "us". As such, sentences given to them should be neither light nor heavy, nor in any other way distinguishable from the sentences which would be handed down to members of any other group found guilty of the same offence. E

seeksfemslave -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 4:53:59 PM)
LadyE: I totally agree that I am obsessed with this immigrant "thing" and the reason is this. I have been employed with Muslims and Hindus and I know how deep is the level of hatred that exists between them. I know the utter contempt that those that claim that mass immigration is a good thing have for the white modest respectable working class majority who make up this country. We are being taken for a ride by sensitive pseuds who wouldnt recognise hard work if it bit them on the arse. eg of what we have to put up with...student of English Literature and holder of three degrees including a PhD. To a large extent tax payer funded. What did she do upon graduation? Worked as receptionist in a hotel. Naturally enough a holder of impeccably Liberal views, believing that an immigration policy that disadvantages those that to a large extent subsidised her useless education really need to be as intelligent/sensitive as she believes herself to be in order to recognise the truth of the value of a multi cultural society that she mindlessly supports. My mind turns to NG here. It is absolutely correct that on pragmatic grounds it would be be preferable if all of different ethnic racial cultural origins could co operate one with the other and all live happily together. The plain facts are... This will not be achieved by allowing the immigrants to dictate terms eg apply Fatwahs to supercilious prats like Salman Rushdie, ban theatre productions that upset them and generally try to cling to the cultural tradition that not five minutes ago they abandoned to seek support from the welfare benefits available in the UK. To take a job wearing Western dress and then suddenly decide that her cultural traditions are paramount and she must be allowed to wear a face mask or she will feel violated and sue for loadsa money to assuage her hurt feelings. The list is so long and easily compiled its embarrassing. See that Afghan on the news tonight.. Hard worker , runs a little shop and does his best. Oh dear forgot to mention that he has seven kids all needing to be processed thru' an overburdend education system and attention from a limited resource tho'overburdened managerially Health service. Probably sends money back to Afghanistan and given half a chance will have his mother in law in the UK 'cos she does have a medical problem that needs attention. When inner city areas are changed such that they could easily pass for Bangladesh do you not think that at least a few who live in those areas will not look askance and ask .....why? If you think I am wrong then I believe you are part of the problem, and since you apparently support the Liberal Democrats, I expect I am right....again.

Politesub53 -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:05:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen It was before the current troubles Seeks. Do try to read before "arskin'"? And to be fair, whilst the recent attacks on Chinese settlers were horrific, (four women burned to death in one store), one can understand even if not condone, when one considers the situation. E Im glad you can understand four women being murdered, because i sure cant. No matter what the situation.

LadyEllen -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:27:40 PM)
PS53 - imagine it in a different context - lets say a world where the nazis won WWII and we've been not only occupied for 30 something years, but forced to accomodate a few million nazis who run the place and treat us like shit. Imagine that you, your spouse, your mother, your father, brother, sister, son or daughter or any of your friends may not as much as speak a word against the regime, even though it treats you like shit, and that there is a nazi police officer on every street corner, and often several police officers on each street corner, listening for any possible word against the regime. For any infraction - for the most trivial comment - such as for instance "the shops have no bread today", you, your family or your friends will be arrested and beaten severely at the very best, and more likely you will simply disappear, having received a long sentence in prison. Imagine that situation for the past 60 years - with you, your family and friends all having had experience of the consequences of the slightest expression of discontent. You dont think that resentment would build up and eventually erupt in the most monstrous acts of vengeance for such suffering? You dont think that given such treatment, it is understandable that such an eruption will occur? E

LadyEllen -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 5:43:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The plain facts are... This will not be achieved by allowing the immigrants to dictate terms eg apply Fatwahs to supercilious prats like Salman Rushdie, ban theatre productions that upset them and generally try to cling to the cultural tradition that not five minutes ago they abandoned to seek support from the welfare benefits available in the UK. To take a job wearing Western dress and then suddenly decide that her cultural traditions are paramount and she must be allowed to wear a face mask or she will feel violated and sue for loadsa money to assuage her hurt feelings. The list is so long and easily compiled its embarrassing. If you think I am wrong then I believe you are part of the problem, and since you apparently support the Liberal Democrats, I expect I am right....again. Strangely enough I think I'm part of the solution rather than the problem Seeks - though others may disagree. And the problem isnt immigrants or their ethnicity - as you in a way identify, the problem is a cultural one. But, it is a cultural problem which is not solely originated in those groups who have come here - part of it has its origins in the native culture and above all in the foolish approach we have taken to managing the inevitable clashes known as "multi-culturalism", which holds that each culture should remain distinct whilst desperately trying to accomodate them all in one model. Of course we cannot have any incoming culture dictating their values upon the other cultures found here - but neither can we have the native culture dictating its values upon any of the other cultures which have come here. These diktats - attempts to impose which originate from all sides, including the native culture, are made possible and even necessary, because of the multi-cultural model we have. Instead I propose we (all of us) seriously look into what it means to be British and as a nation come to an accomodation to which all groups can subscribe - an accomodation which comprises not only a common identity which is superior to all other identities but a common culture which is superior to all other cultures. Each may choose his own identity and culture within this framework, but it is the common framework which comes first. And if someone cant subscribe to that greater common identity and culture, then they should leave. E

seeksfemslave -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 6:07:38 PM)
LadyE: I am a little "tired and emotional" at the moment so I will restrict myself to asking you Who supplies you with those Pies in the Sky that you appear to be so keen to consume? Islam is NOT a religion of accommodation. When will you and those who think like you realise that ? It is a socio/political philosophy based on the principle that the ends justify the means. The ends are revenge for "slights" that occurred 1000 years ago and those who think like you are unconsciously aiding and abetting in the achievement of those aims. For example there exist in the Koran verses explaining how a devout Muslim should behave with another Muslim and with a kaffir, thats people like you. It might pay you to give those verses some consideration. An Islamic apologist on the BBC will conveniently forget to remind you of them

charmdpetKeira -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/1/2008 8:50:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Clearly, we would not want to produce a Tibetan situation here, but do we need to redress the balance a little in favour of producing not fear, but respect for the authorities - just as much as the Chinese need to redress the balance to approach nearer our model of respect for the person? E No, there is a reason they are treated the way they are; if they are being laughed at, it is because they are a joke. Taking a joke seriously… just isn’t logical. The problem over this way, is that we are not treated with respect (according to our capabilities, and willingness to accomplish); instead we are judged by our brother/sister/mother/father… you get the idea. We are being lied to, we know it, but are unwilling to admit it…. Well, that might explain why authority is a joke. k

Politesub53 -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 1:29:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen PS53 - imagine it in a different context - lets say a world where the nazis won WWII and we've been not only occupied for 30 something years, but forced to accomodate a few million nazis who run the place and treat us like shit. Imagine that you, your spouse, your mother, your father, brother, sister, son or daughter or any of your friends may not as much as speak a word against the regime, even though it treats you like shit, and that there is a nazi police officer on every street corner, and often several police officers on each street corner, listening for any possible word against the regime. For any infraction - for the most trivial comment - such as for instance "the shops have no bread today", you, your family or your friends will be arrested and beaten severely at the very best, and more likely you will simply disappear, having received a long sentence in prison. Imagine that situation for the past 60 years - with you, your family and friends all having had experience of the consequences of the slightest expression of discontent. You dont think that resentment would build up and eventually erupt in the most monstrous acts of vengeance for such suffering? You dont think that given such treatment, it is understandable that such an eruption will occur? E I may want to take on the military, and even destroy shops and buildings, but no, i wouldnt burn civilians to death.

LadyEllen -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 2:41:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Islam is NOT a religion of accommodation. When will you and those who think like you realise that ? It is a socio/political philosophy based on the principle that the ends justify the means. The ends are revenge for "slights" that occurred 1000 years ago and those who think like you are unconsciously aiding and abetting in the achievement of those aims. For example there exist in the Koran verses explaining how a devout Muslim should behave with another Muslim and with a kaffir, thats people like you. It might pay you to give those verses some consideration. An Islamic apologist on the BBC will conveniently forget to remind you of them I dont like pies Seeks - too much pastry gives me indigestion and I didnt get to size 10 by eating what is mostly lard. As for Islam and whether it can accomodate - I've read the relevant bits in the Koran (a good while ago I made an effort to read the whole thing, but failed) and yes, on the face of that there is no room for accomodation. At the same time, we have lots of Muslims here, and it seems most have accomodated. But then, it seems most Christians dont consider it to be quite as OK to hold slaves as the NT does either. If we make a new settlement, then Islam and Muslims have a choice - as does anyone and everyone else; take part in the formulation and then live under the new settlement, or leave. The problem with your way of thinking is that it sees only one way and that is confrontation. Given the numbers involved, and that we're not known as white devils for nothing (despite civilised appearances), such confrontation could only end one way. That you either fail to see the endgame of your views or refuse to acknowledge them whilst at the same time they are so plain to see for everyone else, is either foolishness or cowardice on your part. Such an endgame was not acceptable to human conscience 65 years ago, and it remains so now. And I am quite aware of how I'm viewed thanks. I live less than 50 yards from the Mosque and come into contact with Muslims every day. Strange that I survive, but then I am a foot taller than most Bangladeshis! E

Rule -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 3:26:19 AM)
FR In all religions there are zealous religious nuts. These nuts are all the same size and shape, it is just that some are painted in religion color X and others in religion color Y. They would be just as nutty when they were repainted in another color. Muslims are fucked in that their enemies are actively supporting and encouraging muslim religious nuts, which in turn contaminate other muslims with their nuttiness. Having created the muslim nuts, their enemies next say: "See? They are untermenschen, so we are justified in exterminating all muslims." The same happened to them poor jew untermenschen the other time. Anyone see a pattern recurring? To defeat Satan, the evil ones, the best course of action for any muslim is to change religion before the shit hits the fan, for it surely will.

Rule -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 3:34:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen do we need to redress the balance a little in favour of producing not fear, but respect for the authorities - just as much as the Chinese need to redress the balance to approach nearer our model of respect for the person? Respect in western societies must be earned. Either because of incompetence or because of intention western governments do not perform in a way that earns respect. Apparently they do not care about that.

seeksfemslave -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 5:47:33 AM)
quote: LadyE, who says to me The problem with your way of thinking is that it sees only one way and that is confrontation. Given the numbers involved, and that we're not known as white devils for nothing (despite civilised appearances), such confrontation could only end one way. That you either fail to see the endgame of your views or refuse to acknowledge them whilst at the same time they are so plain to see for everyone else, is either foolishness or cowardice on your part. Such an endgame was not acceptable to human conscience 65 years ago, and it remains so now. LadyE I think I forsee the end result only too clearly. At the moment the problem is containable because the numbers are still small. Given a generation or two, what with the major birth rate differential and if mass immigration, note I always stress mass immigration, is allowed to continue there can be but one result , serious social disruption. Given a major economic downturn or meaningful attempts to reform the system of welfare it will occur sooner rather than later. Funnily enough LadyE in my younger more naive days I used to argue along the lines that you put forward and I felt that natural behaviour drives to conformity would automatically bring about a succesful integrated society. To a certain extent that has happened in that some Muslim youth have gravitated to Western ways. My mistake was in not comprehending the grip that Islam has on the psyche of many Muslims and I took no account of how people really behave as distinct from the idealistic Liberal model of tolerance and restraint that is rammed down our throats by the pseuds who simply have no understanding of what engages the masses and themselves are circumspect and civilised when presenting their own prejudices. If the Islamic identity/influence in the UK remains, and recent events have unquestionably strengthened that identity, then sooner or later we will all have to decide where we really stand. So even now a properly constituted Foreign Policy needs to consider the "feelings" of Islamacists. Playing the nasty bastard I believe a major Islam Hindu military conflict in India will almost certainly see rioting and civil damage in the UK. he he he The nation as I understood it, and I have never been patriotic, carnt stand upper middle class types, is slowly dissolving just as will a mist when the Sun rises. I regret that. Do you ?

kittinSol -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 5:56:13 AM)
What on Earth happened to your hair [sm=jaw.gif] ?!!!

RealityLicks -> RE: does the balance need redress? (4/2/2008 5:59:27 AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD9roCQedaw&feature=related Kittin, click here for the inspiration behind the new look...

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