RE: Dems worst nightmare

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kittinSol -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 10:28:15 AM)
There is something called the middle ground, you know.

philosophy -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 10:45:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Yeah... Because the "all are equal" group philosophy worked so well for the Soviets and continues to work well for North Korea and Cuba. Long live socialism! ...thats not what i was talking about, but i'm glad you found an outlet for your opinion. What i was talking about, is the idea that society acting together is percieved by some as being dangerously close to socialism....yanno, because both words (society and socialism) share a bunch of letters. It seems to me that the USA has a large (or maybe noisy) group of people who are opposed to anything that is societally organised. For them, the individual takes precedence over everything else.........it's the attitude that fuels the idea that using someones tax money to benefit other people is somehow wrong. This, of copurse, stems from an imperfect understanding of both society and socialism.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 2:37:40 PM)
quote: it's the attitude that fuels the idea that using someones tax money to benefit other people is somehow wrong. It is wrong. It is absolutely wrong. My money means I decide to whom the benefit goes--just me, nobody else. Anything else is undisguised thievery, and is just as unethical.

philosophy -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 2:53:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: it's the attitude that fuels the idea that using someones tax money to benefit other people is somehow wrong. It is wrong. It is absolutely wrong. My money means I decide to whom the benefit goes--just me, nobody else. Anything else is undisguised thievery, and is just as unethical. ...no it isn't. If you wish to live without the rights and responsibilities of living in society then you have to live on a desert island. Suppose i wish to with-hold that part of my tax that pays for corporate tax breaks? Or military spending? Or AIDS research (mind you, then i'd be McCains spiritual advisor)? That would be unethical, as well as bigoted and immoral. What do you think society means?

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:02:55 PM)
quote: ...no it isn't. If you wish to live without the rights and responsibilities of living in society then you have to live on a desert island. Suppose i wish to with-hold that part of my tax that pays for corporate tax breaks? Or military spending? Or AIDS research (mind you, then i'd be McCains spiritual advisor)? That would be unethical, as well as bigoted and immoral. What do you think society means? Hogwash. That logic falls apart on one very simple question: Who decides? Nobody should decide how to spend my money but me. Nobody should decide how to spend your money but you. As for withholding tax money because you don't want it going to the items you mention....that would be a principled action on your part. Regarding items such as national defense, I might debate the merits of your choice, but I am quite at ease with you making such a choice. On the corporate tax breaks, I might even agree with you. AIDS research might require a few beers to sort out (public health--which is good--vs politicizing of medicine--which is bad). Henry David Thoreau did exactly that once. Spent a night in jail over it--led to his essay "Civil Disobedience". Got quite upset when his friend Ralph Waldo Emerson paid the tax on his behalf to spring him from jail.

Owner59 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:32:43 PM)
quote: ...no it isn't. If you wish to live without the rights ] Hogwash. That logic falls apart on one very simple question: Who decides? The collective decides on how the commons are to be managed. You`re part of the community and you also contribute it,as well as reap the benefits of it. Oops, more of those pinko words.Sorry.... added: No man is an island.

philosophy -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:41:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ...no it isn't. If you wish to live without the rights and responsibilities of living in society then you have to live on a desert island. Suppose i wish to with-hold that part of my tax that pays for corporate tax breaks? Or military spending? Or AIDS research (mind you, then i'd be McCains spiritual advisor)? That would be unethical, as well as bigoted and immoral. What do you think society means? Hogwash. That logic falls apart on one very simple question: Who decides? Nobody should decide how to spend my money but me. Nobody should decide how to spend your money but you. As for withholding tax money because you don't want it going to the items you mention....that would be a principled action on your part. Regarding items such as national defense, I might debate the merits of your choice, but I am quite at ease with you making such a choice. On the corporate tax breaks, I might even agree with you. AIDS research might require a few beers to sort out (public health--which is good--vs politicizing of medicine--which is bad). Henry David Thoreau did exactly that once. Spent a night in jail over it--led to his essay "Civil Disobedience". Got quite upset when his friend Ralph Waldo Emerson paid the tax on his behalf to spring him from jail. ...so go on....name one country in the world that currently lets people with-hold part of their taxes. Name one serious living politician that advocates it. Can't think of one? Didn't think so. There's a reason for it. It's because any society has obligations and duties that aren't popular. Back in the 80's, if it were down to people like McCains spiritual advisor, all tax money going to AIDS research would have been witheld. After all, AIDS was God's punishment, according to them. Going by your principle today, people like Hagee would hold back that portion of their taxes that go to reconstructing New Orleans, because that disaster was God's punishment too remember? And you have the cheek to call me unethical when you are suggesting that if enough people think that New Orleans was God's punishment then they should get no help with reconstruction. Look up the word 'ethics'.......and here's a clue, it's not a county in England,.

farglebargle -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:42:08 PM)
You haven't seen my Father-in-law... Talk abou Fat....

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:45:11 PM)
quote: The collective decides on how the commons are to be managed. You`re part of the community and you also contribute it,as well as reap the benefits of it. Oops, more of those pinko words.Sorry.... "The collective"..... My money is not part of any "commons". It's mine and mine alone. Representative government means there is no "collective". The US republic is not Plato's Republic. Which community am I a part of? Houston, Texas? The United States? North America? Small business owners? Buddhists? Kinksters? "That government is best which governs not at all" -- Henry David Thoreau.

farglebargle -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:46:44 PM)
You don't think that check you write to the United States Treasury isn't part of the commons?

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:55:02 PM)
quote: And you have the cheek to call me unethical when you are suggesting that if enough people think that New Orleans was God's punishment then they should get no help with reconstruction. Pure horseshit. I never said a damn thing about your ethics. Still haven't. Already said I disagreed with Hagee. He's less troublesome to me than Wright simply because he's not McCain's pastor. Never said or even implied that New Orleans residents should not receive assistance in rebuilding their city. I will say that I would rather have the rebuilding efforts led by private enterprise than public agency. (Side note: I also wish a few more of them had actually stayed in New Orleans to participate in said rebuilding, instead of coming over here to Houston to feed at the public trough. If my house burns down, I'll be grateful to any who help me rebuild, but make no mistake about it, I'll be doing the lion's share of the work, and if no one helps, I'll still rebuild).

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle You don't think that check you write to the United States Treasury isn't part of the commons? Every check I write to the US Treasury is theft.

farglebargle -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 3:59:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle You don't think that check you write to the United States Treasury isn't part of the commons? Every check I write to the US Treasury is theft. If you're signing the forms, it ain't theft.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:09:58 PM)
quote: ...so go on....name one country in the world that currently lets people with-hold part of their taxes. Name one serious living politician that advocates it. I just realized this is the problem in your thinking. You posit the people existing at the pleasure of "the country"--which I equate to being the government in whatever form it is constructed. I posit "the country"/"the government" existing at the pleasure of the people. The government is meant to serve me, not the other way around. No, no nation currently tolerates individual liberty to the degree I advocate. Does not alter my stance that they should.

philosophy -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:10:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: And you have the cheek to call me unethical when you are suggesting that if enough people think that New Orleans was God's punishment then they should get no help with reconstruction. Pure horseshit. I never said a damn thing about your ethics. Still haven't. Already said I disagreed with Hagee. He's less troublesome to me than Wright simply because he's not McCain's pastor. Never said or even implied that New Orleans residents should not receive assistance in rebuilding their city. I will say that I would rather have the rebuilding efforts led by private enterprise than public agency. (Side note: I also wish a few more of them had actually stayed in New Orleans to participate in said rebuilding, instead of coming over here to Houston to feed at the public trough. If my house burns down, I'll be grateful to any who help me rebuild, but make no mistake about it, I'll be doing the lion's share of the work, and if no one helps, I'll still rebuild). ..point 1......your post 43 this thread. ..point 2......you may have mentioned in passing that you disagreed with Hagee, you'll have to forgive me for missing it amongst all your blather about Wright on another thread. ..point 3......the potential for NOLA residents getting no help with disaster is utterly implicit in your argument. You may not agree with it, but you're fighting for the right of others to with-hold help from those in distress. That puts you on their side. ....and i'm noticing a pattern in your posts. You duck direct questions that have answers that counter your position. So, once again......name one country which allows its citizens to with-hold taxes for things they don't like. Name one current serious politician that advocates it. Once again, didn't think so.......

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:11:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle You don't think that check you write to the United States Treasury isn't part of the commons? Every check I write to the US Treasury is theft. If you're signing the forms, it ain't theft. Sure it is. If I don't sign, I get locked up. That's called coercion. That makes it theft.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:13:50 PM)
quote: but you're fighting for the right of others to with-hold help from those in distress Yep, I am. There's no virtue in charity if there is no right to withhold it.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:17:44 PM)
quote: you'll have to forgive me No I don't. You would do well to stop telling me what I "have" to do.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:19:35 PM)
quote: You duck direct questions that have answers that counter your position. So, once again......name one country which allows its citizens to with-hold taxes for things they don't like. Name one current serious politician that advocates it. You like being wrong, don't you? Already answered.

philosophy -> RE: Dems worst nightmare (3/18/2008 4:20:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ...so go on....name one country in the world that currently lets people with-hold part of their taxes. Name one serious living politician that advocates it. I just realized this is the problem in your thinking. You posit the people existing at the pleasure of "the country"--which I equate to being the government in whatever form it is constructed. I posit "the country"/"the government" existing at the pleasure of the people. The government is meant to serve me, not the other way around. No, no nation currently tolerates individual liberty to the degree I advocate. Does not alter my stance that they should. ...your model of my position is simplistic and wrong, because it omits the third part. Society stands between government and individuals. Society, not government, is what the axiom 'united we stand, divided we fall' refers to. Perhaps you ought to read more Greek Tragedy.......seriously. Those wroters from the 5th century BC were utterly consumed by the same sort of dichotomy we are discussing here. Oikos versus polis, they called it. The law of the family when it conflicts with the law of the city. A situation that came about as cities began to grow into more than simple trading posts. Different laws, duties, rights, obligations were created as the Greek world moved from a scattered agrarian economy into what became the super power of that time. They came to a similar conclusion to me.......that there is something that stands between oikos and polis.....a shared perception. We call it society. Opt out if you like......but you'll no longer have access to the grid (water, power, phones)...no access to commerce (its all subsidised by government)...no access to building materiale that you don't make yourself (if you're not paying taxes to offset the environmental damage caused by the making of concrete...then you don't get any).....no access to advanced medicine (just don't get sick)......and no access to the law, because you'll have opted out of that too. Either that, or pay your taxes, quit whining about it and couint your blessings.

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