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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:56:16 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I try to look at things from a philosophical perspective, and this is what I get:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Slut.  I'll bring the cake and man, you bring the chick.


 
Dude  .

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:58:47 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		 Didn't you ask for cake?

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:58:52 AM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		How wasn't it philosophical?  I was just pointing out my spiritual perspective that I enjoy feeling empowered to enjoy the things that I enjoy .

Lao Stephan


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 10:00:39 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Gawd. In philosophy it's accepted to use the first person. Cogito ergo sum.

Fuck it. I'll just have some cake.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 10:02:09 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Status: offline 		remember you cant have cake and eat it too....




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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 10:04:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Philosophy time..........

Is a will to destroy desire to desire destruction?

Looking at it from a Buddhist perspective, the destruction of self (and thus attainment of spiritual progress) starts from the destruction of desire.

But looking at it from a western perspective, the destruction of our desire can be taken to be an indication of a will to self destruction; that is, a path towards suicide.

Are we dealing here with a cultural difference in outlook, (both arguments can be true) or can only one of these positions be true?

E


You should read Schoppenhauer who discusses a similar conquest of desire. He is one of the easier to understand philosophers, refraining from going into jargon.

Destruction is a perjorative word, it would be better to say the conquest of desire, desire being the source of all human misery because one can never satisfy it.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 1:01:13 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Philosophy time..........

Is a will to destroy desire to desire destruction?

Looking at it from a Buddhist perspective, the destruction of self (and thus attainment of spiritual progress) starts from the destruction of desire.

But looking at it from a western perspective, the destruction of our desire can be taken to be an indication of a will to self destruction; that is, a path towards suicide.

Are we dealing here with a cultural difference in outlook, (both arguments can be true) or can only one of these positions be true?

E


For me, the question here isn't about "desire" but about "destruction".  Buddhism does not advocate destroying desire so much as recognising your desires for what they are, as they arise.  Your actions; whether to fulfill the desire or not, immediately or not, can then proceed from mindfulness and not from a part of you that is in some sense unaware of what motivates you.

As for negating your desires being a kind of self-destruction - that has a long tradition in the West as well as the East.  St Francis and the order he founded spring to mind for their asceticism.  The Cathars believed that this world was the creation of Satan - that's how they identified the God of the Old Testament.  They believed the God of the New Testament was a separate entity - a God of Love, embodied by Christ.  That meant that any engagement with the physical was to be resisted.

They believed not that they were "destroying" themselves but releasing themselves from an imprisonment caused by an evil being.  That we were creatures of spirit not flesh and should seek only to follow spiritual paths.  To them, abstention, fasting etc were hugely creative choices, not destroying their real existence but celebrating it.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 1:32:53 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
They believed not that they were "destroying" themselves but releasing themselves from an imprisonment caused by an evil being.  That we were creatures of spirit not flesh and should seek only to follow spiritual paths.  To them, abstention, fasting etc were hugely creative choices, not destroying their real existence but celebrating it.


Continuing with this and with what toserves said, I read a Buddhist philosophy that helped me greatly.  The idea is that suffering comes from desires, so if we wish to end our suffering, we must change our desires. 

It's not about destroying desires, it's about channeling them into healthy paths.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 2:09:18 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

desire to destroy = result of testosterone

think of a male who is drunk...and how many of them get violent... while it can be said for women too..it is more often you see a bar fight with men involved.  or hear about domestic abuse from a man who is drunk.

most male criminals get a rush out of destroying something or someone.  like arsonists for instance.




what you describe here is not a difference between men and women but only that it is a matter of degree.





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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 2:35:09 PM   
cjan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Philosophy time..........

Is a will to destroy desire to desire destruction?

Looking at it from a Buddhist perspective, the destruction of self (and thus attainment of spiritual progress) starts from the destruction of desire.

But looking at it from a western perspective, the destruction of our desire can be taken to be an indication of a will to self destruction; that is, a path towards suicide.

Are we dealing here with a cultural difference in outlook, (both arguments can be true) or can only one of these positions be true?

E


With all due respect, LadyEllen, That is not the Buddhist perpective. In Buddhism, there is no attempt to destroy the "self", or anything else, including desire. Like all things, desire ( in the sense of clinging ) is simply to be seen clearly, and having done so, one naturally lets go of it because it causes one to suffer. But, I want to be clear on this. It's not "desire" itself that causes suffering ( well, sometime it do, as we all know ;) ), it's the clinging to it, or to anything.

Buddhism, according to "the Buddha" himself, is following the Eightfold Path. It's a process of development and growth. According to Buddhism, and my experience bears this out, the "self" is an illusion. Not to be destroyed, but simply to be seen clearly, and , therefore, let go of ,(not "the "self", but again, the attachment to it ) as you would  a hot coal, because attachment to such beliefs, any attachment to any belief, or anything else causes suffering. (stay with me here lol) .

Because, everything is impermanent, suffering (in the sense that clinging to it leads to suffering because "it" is impermanent, and "not self" ( in the sense that identifying with anything, including opinions , as self causes suffering, again, because it is impermanent). Yea I know it's hard to follow, but I don't know any other way to put it.

Basically, in life, we lose everything sooner or later. So, the Buddha's teaching of the Eightfold Path is a method for growth and a path to "letting go". Which, even in the process of walking the path, can lead to peace and joy.

Difficult shit to grasp and intellectually understanding it is not the same as seeing and experiencing it. That was why the Buddha, in his wisdom, never asked anyone to believe anything. He invites us all to come and see for ouselves.


Was that a rant ? I hope not. Thanks for the topic.

Btw,on a lighter not, it just occured  to me that BDSM, pronounced phonetically, Is buddhism, ain't it ?

< Message edited by cjan -- 3/12/2008 2:54:11 PM >

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 2:43:56 PM   
Lumus


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Status: offline 		The enemy of my anomie is my friend.

~ Nietzsche

The enema of my anomie is a trend.

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[I couldn't choose.]






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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 2:50:24 PM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		i wish i was...happy (er)   at night when my energy level goes   down i get despondent.  the "is that all there is" feeling.

 

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 5:14:41 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Erm... I don't see any real difference between "want" or "desire." 



If I want a chocolate cake, it's not the same as if I desire a man.

PS: or a woman.


You could just as easily want a man and desire the chocolate cake, or most likely want a chocolate cake and then desire another one.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/15/2008 12:51:05 AM   
cjan


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Joined: 2/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

remember you cant have cake and eat it too....





True enough, but one can have nookie and eat it too. Life is good.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/15/2008 5:39:19 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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Joined: 6/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Is a will to destroy desire to desire destruction?


I believe in order to answer this; one would need to know intent.

On the other hand, the thing to remember about destruction is; the end is the beginning, therefore sometimes, destruction is necessary in order to improve.

I believe the motivation to destroy desire, is to convince a person to commit psychological suicide. Kind of a, the lights are on, but nobody is home, thing.

When a person has lost “desire”, they give up liberty; their right to choose. Most of us call it depression.

It initiates a cutting off from the creator (it is very painful) which often leads to a physical suicide.

It is my understanding there are a few different levels to “self”. There is the conscious, subconscious, ego, and I’ve heard about a shadow self (a place where all of the dark secrets, our ego hides from us to help us cope, are kept). (I’m not sure I remembered all of that correctly)

I would think that it would be the ego that one needs to learn to over come, not desire. After all, if one gets rid of desire, what would inspire them to look any further to finding their inner self? Admittedly though, I do not know anything about Buddhist beliefs.

Side note; "desire" involves passion, "want" does not.

quote:

"Things" in and of themselves, don't make you happy..:)


I disagree, and believe you are referring to perspective.

k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 3/15/2008 5:43:03 AM >

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RE: destroying desire - 3/15/2008 5:59:16 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Philosophy time..........


Anyone who has had a glimpse of the range and subtlety of the thought of Plato or of Hegel will long ago have despaired of becoming a philosopher. ~ Michael Oakeshott 

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RE: destroying desire - 3/15/2008 6:04:55 AM   
lusciouslips19


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Status: offline 		I'm am not awake enough for this thread but Hi everyone!

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