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destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:11:47 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Philosophy time..........

Is a will to destroy desire to desire destruction?

Looking at it from a Buddhist perspective, the destruction of self (and thus attainment of spiritual progress) starts from the destruction of desire.

But looking at it from a western perspective, the destruction of our desire can be taken to be an indication of a will to self destruction; that is, a path towards suicide.

Are we dealing here with a cultural difference in outlook, (both arguments can be true) or can only one of these positions be true?

E

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:18:21 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Status: offline 		desire to destroy = result of testosterone

think of a male who is drunk...and how many of them get violent... while it can be said for women too..it is more often you see a bar fight with men involved.  or hear about domestic abuse from a man who is drunk.

most male criminals get a rush out of destroying something or someone.  like arsonists for instance.



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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:20:59 AM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


Looking at it from a Buddhist perspective, the destruction of self (and thus attainment of spiritual progress) starts from the destruction of desire.



But isn't that itself desire?, The desire to achieve  enlightenment?

Jeff

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:28:19 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff 
But isn't that itself desire?, The desire to achieve  enlightenment?

Jeff


oooooo... interesting!
(btw Jeffff, stop freaking me out with all these sensible posts)
 
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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:29:54 AM   
Jeffff


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:30:20 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Philosophy time..........

Is a will to destroy desire to desire destruction?

Looking at it from a Buddhist perspective, the destruction of self (and thus attainment of spiritual progress) starts from the destruction of desire.

But looking at it from a western perspective, the destruction of our desire can be taken to be an indication of a will to self destruction; that is, a path towards suicide.

Are we dealing here with a cultural difference in outlook, (both arguments can be true) or can only one of these positions be true?

E


Nope, you're addressing different values.  The Buddhist in your example values spiritual comfort.  The Westerner values personal fulfillment through achievement of (unspecified) personal goals that aren't necessarily spiritual in nature.  Typically, we Westerners find fulfillment through acquisition of things and experiences that we're told, socially, are desirable.  Buddhists, on the other hand, typically learn that fulfillment comes through learning not to desire anything tangible.  Both positions are 'true' because they reflect the desire of the individual being met.

Ultimately, I think the efforts we invest into achieving individual goals (spiritual, familial, social, etc) are, in fact, the goal.  Life, to me, isn't about what we end up with when we die, but rather what we do while we're living.

Stephan


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:31:22 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		What's the difference between want and desire?

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:33:18 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Status: offline 		one is a 4 letter word and the other is a 6.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:34:04 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What's the difference between want and desire?


I wouldn't equate "will to do something" with "want."  I have a will to scrub my toilet today, but rest assured it isn't a want.

Mr Clean


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:35:18 AM   
kittinSol


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:35:56 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:37:03 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What's the difference between want and desire?


I wouldn't equate "will to do something" with "want."  I have a will to scrub my toilet today, but rest assured it isn't a want.

Mr Clean


 
Yes, but you didn't answer the question :-) .

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:40:20 AM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		Erm... I don't see any real difference between "want" or "desire."  I assumed you were equating LadyE's "will to do something" with "want."

Indeed, Dictionary.com tells us that "desire" is defined as: to wish or long for; crave; want

Stephan


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:41:12 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		 I  am not sure there is a difference, or if there is, if it matters here.
I would say that desire in one form or another is a human condition. Whether your desire a new car or enlightenment.*
You can argue about the merits of one desire over another, but I think we  all desire something

Jeff

* or a blow job, before Ron pops in..:)

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 3/12/2008 9:42:36 AM >

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:42:02 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Status: offline 		i desire to see kitten in a french maids outfit...but i really want to see her in a bikini....  

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:44:35 AM   
toservez


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Status: offline 		It is very much a lost in translation thing.

Buddhist principal is no way meant to infer one must not enjoy life or even pursue desires and pleasures. What Buddhism preaches is the path to enlightenment is being able to see things/life in the reality of what they truly are. Buddhist then use the term attachment which is the combination of assigning false qualities to things and/or pursue things that cause one not to live a good life.

Buddhist philosophy does have a destroy desire bent to it but it is a bent lost in translation. Desire the Buddhism is referring to is actions/thoughts that create these attachments to things.

For example buying a luxury car simply because you enjoy how it rides is perfectly fine. Buying a luxury car because it makes you feel successful or you want others to look at you like you are successful is wrong and therefore a desire to be destroyed. Same thing if buying the car because you liked how it rode but buying caused you to neglect your family because you have to work harder or sacrifice in other ways to afford the car.

So when people see Buddhist monks take a vow of chastity it is not because the desire/pleasure of sex needs to be destroyed. But that for that individual monk they believe a vow of chastity works best for them in avoiding attachment to sex. Which would not mean enjoyment of sex or pursue a relationship that had sex. But if that pursuit caused wrong motivatons and actions.

Same thing with a monk taking a vow of silence, it is not words that need to be destroyed but for the monk it is the best way to avoid using harsh words which is a no no.

Buddhism is not teaching destroy desire. It is teaching one must do what they have to do to see life for what it is and what our part is in it.


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:45:40 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Erm... I don't see any real difference between "want" or "desire." 



If I want a chocolate cake, it's not the same as if I desire a man.

PS: or a woman.

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:46:42 AM   
Jeffff


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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:53:22 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Erm... I don't see any real difference between "want" or "desire." 



If I want a chocolate cake, it's not the same as if I desire a man.

PS: or a woman.


Slut.  I'll bring the cake and man, you bring the chick.

toservesz,

Thanks for the thoughts

Stephan

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RE: destroying desire - 3/12/2008 9:54:00 AM   
stella41b


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Status: offline 		This is a popular misconception. Buddhism isn't about 'destroying' desires but refraining from them. You cannot destroy material and physical desires. They are there, they exist. However you have a choice of whether to indulge or abstain.

Does this mean that Buddhists live without sex or money? No, not at all. You can if you so choose to, but then again you can decide to indulge yourself.

The idea is to develop a better balance of physical and spiritual needs - ying and yang - the Middle Path. This comes down to the single most fundamental principle of Buddhist thought:

Obey the law of reason.

You are ultimately responsible for everything you experience in dealing with life. It is your body, it is your soul, and it's you who's got to experience death and move on.

I may believe, I may think, I may feel, I may perceive, but I am in my best position when I know.

What is the difference between want and desire? Is there a perceived need or a perceived wish? Want is closer to wish, and desire is closer to need. Compare a desire with an addiction.

Is destruction always bad or negative? Or is it simply another step in the process of change which precedes creativity?

Life to me is like smoking a cigarette for a smoker. We are born and the smoker lights a cigarette. The intention is to smoke the whole cigarette, our intention is to live a fulfilling, complete life. Sometimes the cigarette goes out - we die prematurely. Sometimes we put the cigarette out - suicide. Sometimes we let the cigarette go out - bad living or an unhealthy lifestyle. Sometimes someone puts the cigarette out for us - we are killed.

But all along the smoker is in control of the cigarette, and yet the nicotine craving controls the smoker.

Similarly we are in control of our lives, but we are controlled by the desire to live.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 3/12/2008 10:05:00 AM >

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