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at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 4:22:16 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Many will remember the threads a few months back, when our very own Stella was detained and deported from the US? Well, at the time I said I'd make an enquiry about travel documents etc for the likes of Stella and I to come to the US (not that we're likely to travel together). And this (below) is the reply, which came last week but which I didnt have time to post then.

Interesting that the first link sent me, is concerned with "an error on my documents" - sort of ties in with Stella's story; though I accept that Stella may not have answered the questions of border security too wisely, it now appears that it might well have been "an error on her documents" which drew attention to her in the first place and prompted the questioning.

Quite how the rest of the links are relevant (apart from the last one) I'm not sure.

E

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 Subject

Hi - I'm planning to fly to the US to visit friends as a tourist for a week o...



 Discussion Thread

 Response (Nicole)
03/03/2008 12:52 PM

We apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry. If you still require an answer to your question, please let us know.

Please note that in our online tracking software, a “Solved” status simply means that we have provided you with the best information we have to your question. There may still be steps you need to complete before your situation is resolved to your satisfaction. Those steps are explained in our response. If you need further clarification on those steps, please feel free to contact us back.

Thank you for contacting Customs and Border Protection's Customer Service Center. If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number 703-526-4200 and speak with a Public Information Officer. Our hours of operation are Monday thru Friday from 8:30am-5:00pm Eastern Time.

 Customer
12/18/2007 10:29 AM

Hi - I'm planning to fly to the US to visit friends as a tourist for a week or so in 2008, along with my two children. My question relates to my specific situation, in that I'm a diagnosed transsexual who hasnt yet had sex reassignment surgery and I'll be flying on a female passport (British). Naturally, since I live and work as a female, I shall appear to be a female.
Is there anything I should know about entry to the US in these circumstances, any special requirement I need to meet, any additional document I should bring? What I want to avoid, is being stopped and possibly deported over my gender status compared to my physical make up. Thanks in advance.

 Auto-Response
12/18/2007 10:29 AM

Title: One of my travel documents (ticket, advance parole authorization, drivers license) has a misspelling of my name or other small error.
Link: http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=898&p_created=1105030114

Title: Documents required by Canadian Citizens/Residents/Landed Immigrant to enter the U.S. and how long can they stay?
Link: http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=619&p_created=1056630853

Title: What documents/paperwork does a U.S. citizen or permanent resident (adult/child) need for International travel?
Link: http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=74&p_created=1043364936

Title: What documents does a foreign national or green card holder need to enter the U.S.?
Link: http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=572&p_created=1048279878

Title: Passport Requirements
Link: http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=905&p_created=1105727944




 Question Reference #071218-000065





Topic Level 1: 
Requirements for International Travelers

Topic Level 2: 
Can I be admitted into the U.S. if...

Topic Level 3: 
Other

Category Level 1: 
Travelers

Category Level 2: 
Tourism/Residency

Date Created: 
12/18/2007 10:29 AM

Last Updated: 
03/03/2008 12:52 PM

Status: 
Solved

Language: 
English



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RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 6:49:31 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Lady Ellen, I remember Stella's experienced difficulties with her attempted entry to the US, and subsequent deportation back to the UK.

I can understand such situations occuring due to document errors, but not with the seeming mishandling of the situation thereafter. Despite your specific questions to them, they remain unanswered insofar as clarification regarding procedures concerning Male to Female pre-operative transsexuals travelling with passports where the gender is listed as female.

Clarification = Clear as mud.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 7:03:59 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Knowing somebody at the US Embassy would help - nepotism always work. I know it doesn't answer your concern: these automated services are too vague, and their helplines provide misinformation. The US Immigration services is absolute shambles.

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RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 7:25:51 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi MsM

Totally agree - the question I asked was not answered; links to FAQs are not very helpful, considering that being TS is not exactly a Frequently Arising Quality

But then, what are they going to reply with I wonder?
a) its not a problem for us that you dont conform to our procedures, or
b) we dont want the hassle of dealing with the likes of you

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
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RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 8:42:11 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

If you have any other questions or would like clarification on this response, please feel free to contact us either by calling our toll free number 877 CBP-5511 (227-5511) or if calling from outside the United States our toll number 703-526-4200 and speak with a Public Information Officer. Our hours of operation are Monday thru Friday from 8:30am-5:00pm Eastern Time.



Did you call?   Might get more definitive information by talking to someone on the phone, or by actually going to the consolate.  I know here in California (at least the Northern part), any difficult questions re: Visas and passports are best answered by going to the US Consolate in San Francisco.  My cousin had to do this when wanting to move to Spain - it took about 8-10 months to work out all the kinks regarding her Visa, and my nephew had to go there when planning his year-long trip to Brazil. 

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 11:52:56 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Ownedgirlie, I think the only problem I can foresee with calling is that it's then a case of 'hearsay', there's nothing in concrete and one can't then turn around at a later date and say, "Well, I was told this by such and such via the phone", as it's not verifiable.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 1:13:23 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		I can come in as a sort of an update. Whilst awaiting the outcome of the decision with the DHS - who lost my documents three times during the DHS TRIP Traveler's Redress program I applied for a B1/B2 visa to visit the United States.
 
This was to be a 21 day speculative visit to get to know US culture and society and I presented documentary evidence of my artistic work in Poland and also written documentary evidence of the theatre and registered charity I'm currently setting up here in London.
 
I was turned down for the visa as they explained that they presumed that all foreigners intended to settle in the US and that despite my being on the gender reassignment program at London's Charing Cross Hospital and working to set up this registered charity and theatre in London I 'don't have strong enough ties with the UK'.
 
They also informed me that they stand by the decision made in Atlanta on Dec 13 and that I will always require a successful visa application to enter the United States.
 
The day after I was informed of my decision I opened my first play in London as intended. We're working to properly open the theatre in a couple of weeks, the theatre workshops under the Project Q program are very successful, to date the Project has been adopted on Broadwater Farm in North London, Haringey Council have assured funding, as have the government, Lambeth Council are interested, St Mungo's have entered the project and Shelter, CRISIS and Thamesreach are all interested, help and support to set up the project is coming from Stonewall, Outside In, and central government.
 
This year there are also premieres of my work in Italy, Russia and a planned production in Poland.
 
The project is designed to fight social stigma working with different members of society. The black community especially are falling over themselves to get involved. I'm handing over my theory on modern fringe theatre to a new generation of young directors who will run the charity with me, as the actors will come from people in society who have been socially excluded for some reason.
 
In this way I've managed to find a way off benefits, reestablish myself in my artistic career and have decided to focus the rest of my life on my artistic career as a fringe playwright, charity worker and social activist.
 
This may take some time, because there's still a lot of work to do, I'm struggling to find people to come into the project (as they need to have stage experience to run projects with disadvantaged people) and also struggling to find enough time to but there's now a theatre of eight people working together to develop the project and theatre.
 
We have decided to expand the project to Canada and my plans now are to relocate to Canada.
 
I accept the decision of the US authorities over Atlanta, it's their country, their legislation. However I have never needed the United States to advance my artistic career and being honest I still don't as it turns out my work is proving popular enough in Europe, even without publicity.
 
The whole idea of me coming to the States was to give my theory on theatre and do the same charity work to fight social stigma and help disaffected people to make beneficial changes to their lives and for some get back into society through theatre workshops and developing their own cultural interests. This was openly declared on my website.
 
The facts remain the same. The offer was made, it wasn't supported or accepted in then US. I've made the same offer in the UK, it's been accepted.
 
People can think what they like. Am I bothered that I'm regarded as a second class citizen by the US authorities? No, not really. I've got a lot of company among Iranians, Russians, North Koreans, etc.
 
I stand by my position. I haven't given up. I plan to make further visa applications to the US, one once the theatre is established as a registered charity, and if that fails, once again from Toronto, where the majority of my family live as naturalized Canadian citizens. Either way the truth will come out.

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(in reply to MissMorrigan)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 1:44:27 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi LadyEllen

Maybe I'm  not following correctly but it seems they did not come close to answering your question at all. It may not be worth your time but a call would seem appropriate. If they give you an answer I think you could request a reference to the regulation. I just can't believe this problem has not arisen before.

Butch

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/8/2008 2:24:24 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi Butch

Indeed - it seems to me they're looking to avoid having to take a position on it either way.

I should perhaps emphasise I have no actual intention to visit the US in the near future - my enquiry was more aimed at finding out the situation.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/9/2008 12:50:22 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Stella, thank you for the update. You are an inspiration and one determined individual which is reflected in the projects you are working with.

I'm not sure if this will help, my ex husband (whom I greatly admire and love dearly) is an actor, he also choreographs, produces, etc... would likely be interested as he still works in the fringe theatre - mainly with the Putney Arts Theatre. Give me a shout via email and I can provide contact details if you're interested.
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
This may take some time, because there's still a lot of work to do, I'm struggling to find people to come into the project (as they need to have stage experience to run projects with disadvantaged people) and also struggling to find enough time to but there's now a theatre of eight people working together to develop the project and theatre. 
 


_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/9/2008 12:57:13 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Ownedgirlie, I think the only problem I can foresee with calling is that it's then a case of 'hearsay', there's nothing in concrete and one can't then turn around at a later date and say, "Well, I was told this by such and such via the phone", as it's not verifiable.


I understand, which is why I also mentioned going to the consolate in person.  One isn't going to find much information about a complicated issue online or on the phone.  I think calling would probably let a person know which office to go to and what to ask for...to at least point a person in the right direction.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/9/2008 1:14:11 AM   
MissMagnolia


Posts: 3636
Status: offline 		Lady E and Stella, it seems that you are just falling into the "too hard" basket in every respect and deemed to be "none people". I wonder how many other transgender folk around the world are being sent off without a valid response to their questions?

As Miss Morrigan said, hearsay information from a phone isn't going to cut the mustard when you turn up at the other end and they throw you in jail for not having the correct genitalia.

I have no clue as to what legal advice is available to you at low/no cost, but even if you had to pay for it, would it be convenient or useful to get some advice from a solicitor? It just seems that you can't get the proper advice you need from the people who you'd THINK would know what they were talking about, so would it be worthwhile asking elsewhere? Could the British Consulate give you some advice?

Red tape always sucks, but this is probably affecting a LOT of people, and no ones coming to the party with the answers to the questions.

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RE: at last - the answer! - 3/9/2008 1:35:07 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Not being familiar with "Stella" and her problems, what is your specific concern?

(in reply to MissMagnolia)
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RE: at last - the answer! - 3/9/2008 1:38:22 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		The thing is, it shouldn't be, but unfortunately is, a difficult situation and if there are no set guidelines for immigration to refer to, then individuals are going to be fallible insofar as one person will state one thing, another something else entirely different. So unless it's in black/white and verifiable, I can see the same problems encountered and experienced frequently.

The US Immigration Service NEEDS to get this sorted and pronto.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I understand, which is why I also mentioned going to the consolate in person.  One isn't going to find much information about a complicated issue online or on the phone.  I think calling would probably let a person know which office to go to and what to ask for...to at least point a person in the right direction.


_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: at last - the answer! - 3/9/2008 1:43:00 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps I am being unfair on this issue, Miss Magnolia, it seems that given the US Immigration Services aren't being specific, one can only deduce that transsexuals are deemed 'undesirables'.

Another problem, as faced by others, is when such a situation occurs and they are faced with deportation, pre-operative transsexuals are placed in holding facilities according to what's going on between their legs and NOT what is stated on a passport as gender.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia
Lady E and Stella, it seems that you are just falling into the "too hard" basket in every respect and deemed to be "none people". I wonder how many other transgender folk around the world are being sent off without a valid response to their questions?

As Miss Morrigan said, hearsay information from a phone isn't going to cut the mustard when you turn up at the other end and they throw you in jail for not having the correct genitalia.

I have no clue as to what legal advice is available to you at low/no cost, but even if you had to pay for it, would it be convenient or useful to get some advice from a solicitor? It just seems that you can't get the proper advice you need from the people who you'd THINK would know what they were talking about, so would it be worthwhile asking elsewhere? Could the British Consulate give you some advice?

Red tape always sucks, but this is probably affecting a LOT of people, and no ones coming to the party with the answers to the questions.


_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to MissMagnolia)
Profile   Post #: 15
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