RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 7:31:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

No, this is Bullshit.  If Bush's energy plan that was proposed in 01 had been implemented we would be well on our way to getting off imported oil.  Bush is not a dictator, and the Dems have been able to filibuster him the entire time.  The original plan called for tapping the gas fields around the great lakes to fuel the North East, which is the only region that uses lots of Oil for home heating, cutting a lot of oil usage off.  As well as more oil from Alaska, California, and the Gulf of Mexico.  We could easyily be importing 35-40% less now than we are.  The left stopped this dead.  Don't blame Bush.  Talk to Senator Reid. 


Any proof of this " Bush plan",luckydog?

And this filibuster you`re talking(lying) about.

Any proof of that?

~General reply~
The "more oil from Alaska",ie. drilling in the Anwar Provence,would take years to put on line and would only supply the equivalent of about 6 months worth of our oil needs.

Drilling in Anwar is more of a symbolic fight for the oil industry and their well payed lobbyists/republicans in Washinton and less a real option.It is not any sort of solution or even a band-aid;more of a scam,really.

The republican plan will always be about using fossil and nuclear power.That`s it.They have no incentive to act otherwise,they know what side of the bread their butter is.

Don`t expect solar,geo-thermal,wind,water,tidal,conservation,etc.alternatives from the republicans.

They don`t receive payments and gifts from those folks.

Unless and until republicans receive at least equivalent matching funds/contributions from the alt-energy folks(as much as they do from the big oil) or are cut out of the process all together,we will not make any progress on energy/climate change/energy independence issues.



xBullx -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 8:37:41 AM)

-fast reply-

I’m going to re-introduce the word greed and how its influence is unaware of any geopolitical affiliation.

Now while this greed factor may not be the sole inspiration for the federal Government not to enact stiff legislation mandating much higher “minimums” on miles per gallons ratings for the auto industry; it is in my mind a primary motive.

Just think about the tax revenue lost by mandating a car that now gets 20 mpg to 40 mpg, a light truck that presently gets 15 mpg to 30 mpg. Better yet let’s legislate the mileage on the Class 8 truck that is presently getting 5.5 mpg to 10 mpg. Can you imagine the loss in tax revenue? This is a real issue that is never discussed, it has nothing to do with party lines, it is something no elected Washingtonian wants to discuss with us.

We sit out here in our own brand of ignorance, name calling and imparting bias views as to what brand of misdirection or disinformation is the best. All the while they smile at us because we have bought into their plan to focus our attention away from the real issues. Hell this very forum sits here wasting immense volumes of time and energy in trying to lat blame to someone that could give two shits about their personal views. This group like so many has bought into the distractions.

Answer me this. Why do you think we as a country always end up selecting this President of ours form the “lesser of two evils”. Shouldn’t we demand that our President be the best we have to offer? Of course some of you would be intently bored to death; you’d having nothing to focus you contempt and pent up angst against. (As if)

Stop pointing fingers at Carter or Bush or anyone that is owned by the dollars that put him in office. This country belongs to all of us (Americans) and if we allow the wealthy and corrupt to dictate to us the very lives we live than we are the sheep that deserve the fence that limits our freedom and liberty.

This oil problem is nothing new, it not new to any of us. But it is also nothing new that it is an overwhelming human condition to blame everyone but our self for the problems that each of us face.

Now argue for truth and growth in yourself first, and then you might be allowed to expect it in others.

Greed and an unwillingness to find better ways to generate revenue to finance our highways and such is the answer to this dilemma. Please try and keep your eye on the ball.

Live well,

Bull



caitlyn -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 8:41:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Ah, yes - the magical electric car. You never have to build more coal or nuclear power plants because you don't have to plug those cars in, you never have to get environmentalists to approve more lead mines and lead smelters because their batteries are magical... heck, they practically run on Elf farts and Pixie dust.


Is this type of talking point really all that helpful?
 
One of the reasons we seem stalled on this issue, is the entrenchment by some in the "all or none" camp, where an alternative source must pass the acid test of completely eliminating our dependence on oil, to be even considered.
 
What about ten percent ... decreasing our dependence on oil by ten percent over the next four years? Isn't that better than decreasing it by none percent for the same period?
 
How about moving an additional ten percent of our energy needs, to cleaner methods over the next four years? Isn't that better than none percent for the same period?  
 
We might even discover that this can be done on an escallating curve, where the lessons learned getting the first ten percent, would allow us to get an additional twenty percent over the next equal time period.
 
True or false ... you have to start somewhere?



xBullx -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 8:49:46 AM)

Come on guys, surely you travel this country with your eyes open.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Don`t expect solar,geo-thermal,wind,water,tidal,conservation,etc.alternatives from the republicans.



There are more wind farms blinking the night skies of this country over the past 8 years than had been created in the eighty before it. Everywhere you look across the plains now you see wind farms. Just do yourself a favor and take a night flight across this country and look out the window and down, you'll se hundreds of wind farms with their aircraft warning lights all blinking in unison.

We have to stop being distracted by party politics; the problems we have we face as a nation; not a political party. And frankly, while some folks believe one party does better than the other, they don't. Both political parties are owned, The landlords are all that might be different, but very few of these landlords are inspired for the greater good.

Live well,

Bull



Owner59 -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 9:11:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

I’m going to re-introduce the word greed and how its influence is unaware of any geopolitical affiliation.

Now while this greed factor may not be the sole inspiration for the federal Government not to enact stiff legislation mandating much higher “minimums” on miles per gallons ratings for the auto industry; it is in my mind a primary motive.

Just think about the tax revenue lost by mandating a car that now gets 20 mpg to 40 mpg, a light truck that presently gets 15 mpg to 30 mpg. Better yet let’s legislate the mileage on the Class 8 truck that is presently getting 5.5 mpg to 10 mpg. Can you imagine the loss in tax revenue? This is a real issue that is never discussed, it has nothing to do with party lines, it is something no elected Washingtonian wants to discuss with us.

We sit out here in our own brand of ignorance, name calling and imparting bias views as to what brand of misdirection or disinformation is the best. All the while they smile at us because we have bought into their plan to focus our attention away from the real issues. Hell this very forum sits here wasting immense volumes of time and energy in trying to lat blame to someone that could give two shits about their personal views. This group like so many has bought into the distractions.

Answer me this. Why do you think we as a country always end up selecting this President of ours form the “lesser of two evils”. Shouldn’t we demand that our President be the best we have to offer? Of course some of you would be intently bored to death; you’d having nothing to focus you contempt and pent up angst against. (As if)

Stop pointing fingers at Carter or Bush or anyone that is owned by the dollars that put him in office. This country belongs to all of us (Americans) and if we allow the wealthy and corrupt to dictate to us the very lives we live than we are the sheep that deserve the fence that limits our freedom and liberty.

This oil problem is nothing new, it not new to any of us. But it is also nothing new that it is an overwhelming human condition to blame everyone but our self for the problems that each of us face.

Now argue for truth and growth in yourself first, and then you might be allowed to expect it in others.

Greed and an unwillingness to find better ways to generate revenue to finance our highways and such is the answer to this dilemma. Please try and keep your eye on the ball.

Live well,

Bull



Just calling a spade a spade.

And you`re correct Bull,it`s about greed.

But that`s to harsh a word.

Unless the oil/energy companies make a profit from alternate energy,they won`t do it.

It`s only natural,no one works against their own interests.That`s not finger pointing,that`s reality.

Incentive ,is a better word.People,without incentive won`t act.

If the price was going down steadily as supplies rose,we wouldn`t be talking about this.It wouldn`t be an issue.

In the end,it will be real economic incentive (or greed if you like) that drives any action towards alternate solutions and energy independence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We just have to take care,not to be drawn into a war for oil.

I don`t want to bruise your delicate sensibilities concerning finger-pointing and such,Bull, so I won`t mention which political party is about war for oil and which one wants alternatives to war for oil and alternatives to business as usual.

People know that already.It goes without saying.



Owner59 -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 9:33:58 AM)

While poking around,I found this.

http://www.awea.org/newsroom/releases/AWEA_Statement_on_Economic_Stimulus_Bill_Filibuster_020608.html

AMERICAN WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION STATEMENT ON
SENATE FAILURE TO OVERCOME ECONOMIC STIMULUS BILL FILIBUSTER


"With 116,000 jobs and nearly $19 billion in investment at risk in the renewable energy industries, a minority of the Senate has again frustrated the desire of millions of Americans across the political spectrum who overwhelmingly support clean, home-grown energy. Renewable energy like wind power can lower home energy bills, strengthen our energy security, create new manufacturing jobs and, perhaps most importantly, reduce global warming pollution even as we meet growing electricity demand. We strongly urge Congressional leaders to move quickly to find another path for a rapid extension of the tax incentives needed to put our nation on the road to a clean and secure energy future."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I don`t want to bruise Bull`s delicate sensibilities concerning finger-pointing and blaming, so I won`t mention which political party filibustered the bill.[8|]

But it`s the same party that gave multi-million dollar subsidies and tax breaks the oil industry.Just to give you a hint...[:'(]

This is why I say and it`s not finger pointing:
unless the republicans get as much(or more) payola from the alt-energy folks,....or are cut out of the process all together,ie.voted out of office,we won`t make real and significant progress.

They(the republicans) are holding us back.

To Bull,do we have to be so PC,that we can`t realize and talk about which party or politician is hurting us and which are helping?

Unless we point out that it`s the republicans filibustering our progress,how else are we going to get their asses out of office and create a filibuster proof majority in the Senate?

Should we use code words?



meatcleaver -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 9:40:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Well even a broken clock is right twice a day. It's one of the few times Carter was right.


I'm looking at this from a historical perspective, not being alive at the time, but isn't it true that former President Carter attempted to address several issues ... issues that are haunting us today?
 
Again, looking at it from a historical perspective, and I will admit that most of what you read about him is very critical, but it also seems as if he took over a nation lacking trust and confidence after Vietnam and Watergate ... a nation also in the middle of a recession. Weren't those things in place, when he took office?
 
It would be nice to hear a discussion about former President Carter, from people that lived through his term in office. It would be a bit of a hijack ... but then again, how much value can really be placed on President Bush now telling us we need to get off oil? [;)]


I don't like to say it but I think I agree with caitlyn.

I remember the Carter era and America's problems at the time were not of his making. As always with politics, a politician gets the blame for the shit that hits the fan on his/her watch. Just as Reagan is given the credit by some for the fall of the USSR, he had nothing to do with it, he just happened to be President at the time. If it wasn't for high fule prices a decade before, the USSR might have collapsed on Carter's watch. Such is the luck or bad luck of politics. Carter wanted to address issues that need to be addressed, issues that American Presidents have kept avoiding because they are unpopular. It's a shame Carter never got a second term because the world would probably be a better place if he had and all the sabre rattling between the US and Iran would probably not be happening and there would probably be a working relationship between the two countries. One could go on. It's just a shame that when a President is seen to think and emphatise that he is seen as weak and when a President has no balls and has gristle between his ears, he is seen as strong.



xBullx -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 9:56:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Incentive ,is a better word.People,without incentive won`t act.



I'm gonna demonstrate an incentive for you. One that your average Joe isn't aware of, but it made a huge difference in things. This is actually an environmental act, one made during a non tree hugging administration. But it really doesn't make that much difference who was in charge, so long as a greater good is served.

In 2003 the first in a series of steps to make Class Eight vehicles (big trucks) more clean air friendly was implemented and to the fuss of many it took place, increased costs and huge fines were levied all the while a Government legislation designed to serve the greater good of its peoples and its environment went forward. In 2007 the next phase was put in place again at great cost and irritation. But again, the greater good is in mind.

Now an extremely tough and more expensive plan is scheduled for 2010. Alot of money was against this but the cries of the people and the needs of a nation were finally moved forward. It's cost me personally a good deal of profit. I found other ways to generate that profit. Amazing wouldn't you say.

In this process engines and fuels have been redesigned. It can be done, the government has to do it and WE have to make them.

quote:



If the price was going down steadily as supplies rose,we wouldn`t be talking about this.It wouldn`t be an issue.



Just like after the Carter Administration. Our appathy and indifference was purchased with low cost fuel. By the way, look at the dependence that created, do you suppose there might have been a pawn or two sacrificed to get to this state of being.

quote:



In the end,it will be real economic incentive (or greed if you like) that drives any action towards alternate solutions and energy independence.



Or like I have pointed out, Government mandates that levy vicious fines to the big dogs if they fail to comply. Ask Caterpiller Industries if they liked their fines.

quote:



I don`t want to bruise your delicate sensibilities concerning finger-pointing and such,Bull, so I won`t mention which political party is about war for oil and which one wants alternatives to war for oil and alternatives to business as usual.



No need to worry yourself about my sensibilities. And rest assuered that nothing about me is delicate.

It's interesting that you missed my point about political parties. I don't think you're looking all that deep into who's really for what. You seem to be distracted with the exterior eye wash that they want you to see.

If they keep us bickering over the who gives a shit issues they can do what they want where it counts.

Thanks for the response,

Bull



TracyTaken -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 10:10:54 AM)

He is trying to rescue his legacy.  It's a bit late.  



luckydog1 -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 10:11:59 AM)

owner59, here is a link to the CNN article about the plan you pretend to not remeber existing.   The left still is in court trying to force Cheny to release the notes from drawing up the plan...

May 17, 2001 Posted: 10:24 p.m. EDT (0224 GMT)
NEVADA, Iowa (CNN) -- President Bush released an energy strategy for his administration Thursday with an eye toward the long term, but critics swiftly accused him of ignoring immediate problems.
"We face a shortage of energy," Bush said in an appearance Thursday afternoon in Iowa. "It is real. It is not the imagination of anybody in my administration. It's a real problem."
In Iowa and earlier, in Minnesota, Bush said his plan would encourage new, environmentally friendly exploration for new sources of oil and natural gas, while encouraging conservation efforts and developing other sources of energy as well.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/05/17/bush.energy.plan/

The plan included  •  $4 billion for the purchase of new energy-efficient vehicles. (More details on hybrid vehicles)
 •  $1 billion for developing methane gas from landfills, for generating electricity.
 •  Tax credits of up to $2,000 for installing solar panels on residential homes.
•  Several other tax incentives to encourage development and use of alternative fuels like biomass.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/05/17/bush.energy.details/ 

So once again you have simply proven that your memory isn't very good.  And that Bush was proposing more money for alternative energy than any president including Cater and Clinton.

Now the Bill you just cited passed, so I am not sure why you are pretending otherwise.  I am not a fan of tying unrelated legislation to get pork passed.  The energy aspects you are talking about were tied into the 300 rebate/ money for yarn museum bill that was hottly debated.  If titwere introduced speratly, it would have passed with out a hitch, but thats not Reids style..

Now you are trying to pretend that Bush didn't even propose the plan, so I am not going to bother going through the details...Short lesson, Jeffords switched parties and the thing was off the table due to massive opposition from the Democrats.


And you are flat out wrong on ANWR.  IF ANWR oil was the only source of energy used in the USa.  every other source was replaces, no more dams, nuclear, solar, natural gas,or wind, or other oils sources...Just ANWR oil only, it would last for 6 months at current usage.

If you added ANWR to our current energy supply you would get 5 % of our oil needs for 50 years.  Caitlyn, please note this.  Opening one new large field would get us halfway to the Goal you say we should strive for, and Bush was pushing for it before he was elected.  The Democrats and Left stopped it for political reasons.

You can like Bush or not, support or not , but....To say he just realised there is a problem with energy is stupid and a willfull ignoring of facts and proposed legislation.  Going back to before he was elected. 

And that's not even mentioning the hydrogen initiatives...



xBullx -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 11:00:59 AM)

Good Neighbor, I sorry to have to point this out to you, but it’s becoming rather clear that like Sinergy you’re so busy imparting your own agenda that you have missed my message completely. But it is an all to common tactic of politics that when they can’t muster superiority in principle or plan they seek to discredit the perceived advisory. Even at the blind risk of dismantling their own credibility.

Now to make this highjack short; I am a Moderate American, thanks in no small part to the last Presidential Administrations I am thoroughly disgusted with our ever so corruptible two party system. If any of you truly believe that your party is the one true party and this party is above corruptibility, shame on you and put down the Kool-Aid.

The very premise of what this two party system has evolved into is contradictory to the idea of free enterprise. Unless you are extremely wealthy and influential your chances of becoming part of the process without succumbing to the will of one of these two parties is nearly hopeless. And if you are one of these wealthy people its easier and less effort needs to be utilized to purchase an individual or party. These two parties have a monopoly on the political process and oh so few step up for an end to it..

So my Collarme friends, when you seem to feel the need to caste spin or filibuster a post of mine don’t use the donkey versus the elephant approach, it does absolutely nothing to advance your position.

Oh, and Owner59, you can drag out all the documentary you want about the filibustering of wind farms, I’m telling you it obviously did little good, I’m looking at farm after new farm of them out here on the prairies. In talking to the construction crews erecting these farms, they’re building these sties as fast as the factories can produce the systems and they see no end to the construction, So, if it’s ok with you I’ll stick with my visual realities over your printed reports. Like I said, take that plane ride and look down.

Thanks though,

Bull


P.S. I’m sure my friends will love the implication that I’m concerned about political correctness. That’s good for one of those deep seated laughs.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 3:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t want to bruise Bull`s delicate sensibilities concerning finger-pointing and blaming, so I won`t mention which political party filibustered the bill.[8|]


You really need to find some sports teams to root for. Will tell you like I do the right-wing fundies, lock stepping went out of style a long time ago.

quote:


But it`s the same party that gave multi-million dollar subsidies and tax breaks the oil industry.Just to give you a hint...[:'(]


What about the party that gave them excuses to keep a bottle neck on refining the oil? What about the party that has seen more of a rise in inflation during their administration, than the other party? Somewhere between the two extremes is likely where we will find the answers.

quote:


This is why I say and it`s not finger pointing:
unless the republicans get as much(or more) payola from the alt-energy folks,....or are cut out of the process all together,ie.voted out of office,we won`t make real and significant progress.

They(the republicans) are holding us back.


Broken record and for all your speech, what does ity help? Nothing. It just causes more division.

quote:


To Bull,do we have to be so PC,that we can`t realize and talk about which party or politician is hurting us and which are helping?


Both parties are hurting us because they have lockstepping, cheerleaders that will accept their business as usual politics.

quote:


Unless we point out that it`s the republicans filibustering our progress,how else are we going to get their asses out of office and create a filibuster proof majority in the Senate?

Should we use code words?


And that political theater where all the Dems pulled cots and such into their congressional offices did what? Wake up, most of them are from the same party, and that is the "Business as usual" party.

I will not even go into hypocricy when you demand proof from someone else, but have worked the rumor of the right doing smear campaigns against Obama and blaiming Hillary, with no proof of substance.



PlayfulOne -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 4:20:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Ah, yes - the magical electric car. You never have to build more coal or nuclear power plants because you don't have to plug those cars in, you never have to get environmentalists to approve more lead mines and lead smelters because their batteries are magical... heck, they practically run on Elf farts and Pixie dust.


Is this type of talking point really all that helpful?
 
One of the reasons we seem stalled on this issue, is the entrenchment by some in the "all or none" camp, where an alternative source must pass the acid test of completely eliminating our dependence on oil, to be even considered.
 
What about ten percent ... decreasing our dependence on oil by ten percent over the next four years? Isn't that better than decreasing it by none percent for the same period?
 
How about moving an additional ten percent of our energy needs, to cleaner methods over the next four years? Isn't that better than none percent for the same period?  
 
We might even discover that this can be done on an escallating curve, where the lessons learned getting the first ten percent, would allow us to get an additional twenty percent over the next equal time period.
 
True or false ... you have to start somewhere?


caitlyn.

That was a wonderfully logical thought,  wasted upon people who would rather bicker.

K



Aswad -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 4:37:24 PM)

Not exactly something new. Hybrid cars have been around for a while. They run off the batteries unless they need to go fast, until the batteries run low. Then they use the engine for recharging or driving quickly. Hell, they even recharge the batteries when you push the brakes. Simply no emissions while gridlocked in traffic, and you can use them like any other car.

With the modest and easy-flowing traffic around here, they do about 80 miles per gallon.

As for purely electric cars, those happen to have another, major problem: the power supply grids can't accomodate them. Particularly with the low voltages in the US, requiring massive amperage to be delivered to a charging station. There are supercap batteries out there that can take the full output of a 500MW coal power plant while charging (which they do pretty quickly at that speed, mind you). I have a few solutions to that problem, but if they work as intended, I plan on applying for a patent, so I can't very well describe it here.

Another problem is the time it takes to adopt it. Even with a world dictatorship, it would take about 50 years to change the basic transport infrastructure (i.e. shipping and logistics; the stuff we need to get food, mail and medical supplies to where it needs to go) to electric power. In a free market economy, it takes even longer, because there is a major hit to the bottom line until you're actually done rolling it out and ironing out the kinks. Consequently, we will probably run out of oil before the basic infrastructure has been switched. Never mind personal transport.

By the way, there are other technologies out there, too. Germany and Japan are experimenting with Zeppelins again, for instance. France has built a car based on compressed air. Electric power really isn't the be-all and end-all of getting off oil, nor of improving the climate problems (leaving aside the debate of whether those are relevant or not, which is immaterial in this context).

Health,
al-Aswad.



Sinergy -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 4:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Maybe Clinton should have been working on an energy policy of his own instead of getting Bj's in the Oval office. That way he wouldn't have been in court so much..


Maybe the Republican controlled Congress should have found something better to do, like pass energy standards and rebuild our infrastructure, than file 100s of expensive investigations into things which ended up, almost 100%, not being worth the effort to investigate.

We can go back and forth on this all day.

Sinergy



Sanity -> RE: Bush: US must get off foreign oil (3/6/2008 8:36:30 PM)

Endless wasteful, expensive investigations of a President by a Congress instead of coming up with some kind of a viable energy policy...

Hmmm...

Why does that sound so familiar.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Maybe Clinton should have been working on an energy policy of his own instead of getting Bj's in the Oval office. That way he wouldn't have been in court so much..


Maybe the Republican controlled Congress should have found something better to do, like pass energy standards and rebuild our infrastructure, than file 100s of expensive investigations into things which ended up, almost 100%, not being worth the effort to investigate.

We can go back and forth on this all day.

Sinergy




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