Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/27/2008 9:03:44 PM)

Yay! That's the kind of news that makes my day. Aren't you all a little bit sick of Microsoft's enormous omnipotence in all things computing, particularly of its shitty business practices? Well, apparently the European Union is (God I love it), and they've slapped a MASSIV' fine on the fuckers.

The European Commission has fined US computer giant Microsoft for defying sanctions imposed on it for anti-competitive behaviour.
 
Microsoft must now pay a record 899m euros ($1.4bn; £680.9m) after it failed to comply with a 2004 ruling that it abused its dominant market position.

The ruling said that Microsoft was guilty of not providing key code to rival software makers.
EU regulators said the firm was the first to break an EU anti-trust ruling.

The fines come on top of earlier fines of 280m euros imposed in July 2006, and of 497m euros in March 2004.

"Microsoft was the first company in 50 years of EU competition policy that the Commission has had to fine for failure to comply with an antitrust decision," Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said in a statement.

Read the rest at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7266629.stm



Muttling -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/27/2008 9:52:32 PM)

When did MicroSquish ever leave the naughty chair?



Termyn8or -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/27/2008 10:06:29 PM)

Kit, how can we agree so much yet .......

Oh yeah, microshaft hit with fines, they should be. What it is that they are using copyright law to exist. They stole everything almost. They stole the mouse/GUI from Apple, and the scalable windows from a company called Quarterdeck, who came out with one of the best DOS shells around, having almost everything Win 95 had, but almost ten years earlier. It ran in DOS 4 or 5. By the time I even got Windows (3.1) it was running in DOS 6.22, The thing is Windows has never been anything more than a DOS shell, and never will be.

From what I understand this whole thing is about the integration of Internet Explorer. Apparently they do not like that over there, they want choices. Apparently the US govt thinks this is OK.

And the thing is, they'll probably not bat an eyelash paying that 900 million euro fine. Yes they might adjust their behavior in the future to make more money, or in this case to lose less, but in the end, they are not hurt. If you have a broker, pick up some stock tomorrow. Maybe next day, but then ride it back up. Don't expect much, but it's something.

I know it has to do with source code, but it is pertaining to browser integration. Europe also has a bunch of consumer protection laws. There are probably alot more people there who have no taste for IE, they might prefer Firefox or who knows. At least that is the impression I get, or something like that. I do correspond internationally and not just here. Across the pond there are more Linux users, and Linux has even less support for some browsers, BUT, Linux is open source. Everyone is free to examine the code, and write their own browser. If someone happens to rewrite Linux and make it better in that respect, or any other for that matter, well out comes another version.

But Windows is a big secret. I wish I had cut my teeth on UNIX, moved into Linux.

One thing I do wonder is about decompilers, they exist. Windows can be decompiled, but it has no commercial value. The license agreement says that.

What does the license for Linux MCE say ? Have you seen the demo ? I was kinda impressed. It interfaces with every device in the house that is compatible. There is a jack in the back of most AV equipment and it not only fired up when you stuck in a DVD, if you went to make some coffee in the kitchen it would turn on your kitchen TV and feed the video from the DVD there. It uses a link to your bluetooth phone to achieve that.

This is so head and shoulders above Windows MCE it is ridiculous. And it is open source. When you see that, after being microshafted out of many many dollars, your eyes open sometime.

Windows is not the world, pay up Billy Gates.

T



CuriousLord -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/27/2008 10:14:13 PM)

One of the first times the EU's been successful in vengence against MS, so far as I can tell.  Previous attempts were mostly about fixing problems; this one strikes me as more along the lines of retribution.

I do wonder what they'd do if MS decided to impose something of a boycott on Europe in retaliation.  Now that'd be a risky game!



MissMorrigan -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/28/2008 1:33:13 AM)

I also wish the same, Termyn8or. Microsoft have been crafty bastards with regards to their OS's and the various compatability issues surrounding their usage which leads to yet more expense. So much for being user friendly!

Microsoft aren't alone in anti-competitive tactics, BT in the UK does the very same thing (UK's largest phone company). Sure there is a multitude of phone companies that provide services, however, if a person needs a phone line PUT IN it has to be done via BT, who then hold the customer to a year's contract! I'd like to see them heftily fined also.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
But Windows is a big secret. I wish I had cut my teeth on UNIX, moved into Linux.

What does the license for Linux MCE say ? Have you seen the demo ? I was kinda impressed. It interfaces with every device in the house that is compatible. There is a jack in the back of most AV equipment and it not only fired up when you stuck in a DVD, if you went to make some coffee in the kitchen it would turn on your kitchen TV and feed the video from the DVD there. It uses a link to your bluetooth phone to achieve that.

This is so head and shoulders above Windows MCE it is ridiculous. And it is open source. When you see that, after being microshafted out of many many dollars, your eyes open sometime.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/28/2008 2:08:49 AM)

Anyone understand the legal position here?
How can a European jurisdiction fine a US firm?  

To clarify : I mean over issues like in this case "code sharing" where presumably the executive decisions on the matter are not taken in European offices..



luckydog1 -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/28/2008 2:20:53 AM)

Couldn't Microsoft, with  few keystrokes simply deactivate Windows (and all their products, including DOS)  from the EU in less than an hour?   Why would they have to pay this fine?, they don't have to do bussiness there. 



aviinterra -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/28/2008 4:34:56 AM)

quote:

I do wonder what they'd do if MS decided to impose something of a boycott on Europe in retaliation.  Now that'd be a risky game!


hehehe...that would be a risky game, but one that might suddenly open the gates to new smaller companies and unleash the now supressed creative geniuses. Frankly, I am sick of MS's omnipotence and lately nanny-ish habits as to what we can and can't do on our PCs.



kittinSol -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (2/28/2008 4:45:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

One of the first times the EU's been successful in vengeance against MS, so far as I can tell. 

(...)

I do wonder what they'd do if MS decided to impose something of a boycott on Europe in retaliation.  Now that'd be a risky game!



Hahahaha! Why on earth do you think it's about 'vengeance'? Not at all; in a David versus Goliath combat, the EU is trying to fight a virtual monopoly. Microsoft's been muscling out smaller rivals with unfair business practices (yes, even big business has to go by certain rules). The European Commission takes such things seriously (they're not bashed about by corporations as much as, oh, let's say the US Government).

In 2004, the European Commission found the following:

quote:



Microsoft abused its market power by deliberately restricting interoperability between Windows PCs and non-Microsoft work group servers, and by tying its Windows Media Player (WMP), a product where it faced competition, with its ubiquitous Windows operating system.

This illegal conduct has enabled Microsoft to acquire a dominant position in the market for work group server operating systems, which are at the heart of corporate IT networks, and risks eliminating competition altogether in that market. In addition, Microsoft's conduct has significantly weakened competition on the media player market.

The ongoing abuses act as a brake on innovation and harm the competitive process and consumers, who ultimately end up with less choice and facing higher prices.

For these very serious abuses, which have been ongoing for five and a half years, the Commission has imposed a fine of € 497.2 million.

Microsoft abused its virtual monopoly in the computer world to muscle out smaller rivals, especially those that make media players and software for servers. At least, that's the finding of the European Commission's competition watchdog.



Followed a whole list of recommendations which the company, in its superb superiority, decided to ignore. So, the EU Commission went at it again.

Here's the EU Commission Press link: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/04/382&format=HTML&aged=1&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

In the end, Microsoft and other corporations wish to take advantage of a free market economy by disrespecting the laws and regulations of the countries in which they operate.

In this case, the fine's increased from 2004; term is correct in assessing that $1B is fuck all to them. What might make a difference is the bad PR, and the awareness consumers will acquire as a result of the EU's decision. Let's not forget that Oracle, Sun Microsystems, Nokia and others went to the Commission to complain about Microsoft's reluctance to share its software codes (even though it was bound by agreements to do so). This is politically and business motivated.

As for Microsoft 'boycotting' the EU... well, do you really think it's in their interest to do so [sm=biggrin.gif]? They have quite a lot of customers there, you know. Free market and all.

I'm loving it. The EU is also mounting two more antitrust cases against the company. I can't wait! I'm proud of my EU passports [8D] .



Termyn8or -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 9:43:31 AM)

I have to comment on seeks's comment.

Because they do business there. International law is still developing at the moment. As long as products are shipped all over the world, there needs to be something in place to enforce culpability.

The country that is the largest comsumer in the world has the weakest consumer protection laws in the world. Which brings us to this - If this is wrong in the EU why is it not wrong in the US ?

I think the US should fine the companies in China that sold us the toys with lead based paint on them. Whatever treaty or agreement that allows them to sell here, it should include that stipulation. With our poor government it will not happren.

I applaud the EU's action agains uSoft, and the way I see it, if they are going to take away our rights here (well they already did), at least afford us the protections of living under such a system. But they won't.

In Europe they not only have consumer protection laws concerning safety, but in the example of say a TV set, certain requirements as to warranty and support. Not here. Take the case of a buddy of mine, he bought a $2,000 TV in May last year and broke around Thanksgiving. We are talking 2007 here, the part is no longer available and it isn't even out of warranty ! But who do you sue ? At this point the Attorney General is involved because apparently he is not alone, but in my view the laws should already be in place and it should never have happened. They should be REQUIRED to have spare part available, and at a reasonable price. It is ridiculous, a replacement remote control costs more than buying a new DVD player. If you were to go to build something that cost $200 new using all the parts from the manufacturer, if they were available it would cost many thousands of dollars. I can understand the cost of cataloging and boxing these components, but it does not cost that much. If you think it does let me do it.

It has been open season on the American public for a long time and I am sick of it. If we gad an ounce or two of freedom left, a few things still built here and the education to understand what happens to an economy when a country imports literally everything, no such laws would be needed. But if we are going to live in a totalitarian state where we are prevented from protecting ourselves, goddammit protect us then !

Know what, they (uSoft) take advantage of the EU's intellectual rights laws, so why shouldn't they be subject to the body of law of that country as far as the other aspects of them doing business there ?

Tell you this, it does work both ways though. I got a buddy who has Windows 2000 Professional Advanced Server. It is worth more than Wondows XP Professional Corporate edition (which is THE version to have). Funny thing though, his disks do not say Windows 2000 Professional Advanced Server, they say TDK  CD-R.

While I am not telling, that is illegal. The government makes it illegal. Companies enjoy the benefits of government protection, which obviously is not perfect, but is in place and benefits them. And as much as I will maintain the a natural born Citizen here is not compelled to pay taxes, it is wholly true that a corporation must.

I just got an idea, it should be required that any company that manufactures anything that is sold here must maintain an office here, be taxed here and have people who can be arrested here.

If I give you $2,000 for something that is new with a warranty and you can't honor it, you give me my money back or go to jail. How's that ? When the disparity between the rights of corporations vs those of the Citizens is made fair, I'll go and turn in my buddy for his illegal copy of Windows. When they stop sticking it up our ass at every turn, I'll even delete most of my media collection and just keep the things that I actually have purchased. (Would still be quite a bit)

Kudos to the EU.

T



farglebargle -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 9:52:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

One of the first times the EU's been successful in vengence against MS, so far as I can tell.  Previous attempts were mostly about fixing problems; this one strikes me as more along the lines of retribution.

I do wonder what they'd do if MS decided to impose something of a boycott on Europe in retaliation.  Now that'd be a risky game!



How so? There is not ***ONE*** Functional Application which isn't Better available without Microsoft Windows.

There are specific addictions to ***FAVORITE*** Applications, but since the Real Internet doesn't need Windows at all to run, neither does any Computational Application.




farglebargle -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 9:55:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Couldn't Microsoft, with  few keystrokes simply deactivate Windows (and all their products, including DOS)  from the EU in less than an hour?   Why would they have to pay this fine?, they don't have to do bussiness there. 



Since Microsoft subjected themselves to EU Jurisdiction when they chose to conduct business within their territory, they'd have to deal with the lawsuits there for Breach of Contract.

They *sold* the O/S, and the EULA isn't a legal document, so the common rules of trade would apply. Despite Microsofts erroneous belief, they SOLD Windows to those customers.

What happens when someone unlawfully repossesses something they've already sold you? You have a receipt.




faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 9:57:45 AM)

thats like $20 to us regular people compared to one of the if not ...the richest man in world...



farglebargle -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 10:02:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

thats like $20 to us regular people compared to one of the if not ...the richest man in world...


It adds up. 600 Million Euros is a hefty chunk, and since it's a Penalty, it indicates a willingness to CONTINUE FINES unless obeyed.

The *main* reason Bush is whining like a bitch so much about Telecom Immunity is that if added up, the total fines against AT&T exceed their Market Valuation by a generous factor. I.E.: The *criminal* sanctions could literally bankrupt AT&T. That's why everyone's scared shitless.



Sinergy -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 10:06:06 AM)


Microsnot sells you a license to use their software, not the software itself.

The US government forced Microsnot to unbundle IE from Windoze when Microsnot lost their anti-trust suit.

The anti-trust suit was brought when Microsnot tried to put Sun out of business and establish themselves as the defacto controller of "the Internet"

Now Microsnot is discovering that their business practices have even less popularity in Europe, and I am glad they are being slapped down.

Sinergy

p.s.  I am probably going to dual boot this computer so I can go back to using Linux.





BlackKnight -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 10:09:42 AM)

Linux user here!!!!Hate M$ Hate Bill Gates$ hate brokenWindows!



farglebargle -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 10:14:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


Microsnot sells you a license to use their software, not the software itself.


That's THEIR story.

And, perhaps I could be convinced it's correct.

FIRST: They claim it's "Intellectual Property". I need to see the "PROPERTY TAX" receipts for it.

Then we'll have to check with the county registrar to see if there's a lien on the property or anything....

Once they actually establish their claim, we can move along.

But I expect whatever license they provide is actually perpetual and irrecoverable.

I don't dual boot shit, and have used Linux exclusively since 2001. Well we have some Solaris servers at the current gig...




outlier -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 10:24:29 AM)

Fast Reply,

I don't know why nobody ever references  THIS  website
whenever this discussion comes up.  I have been running
Windows without Explorer for years using the free download
avaliable from them. 

Unbundling is a done deal and was when the lawsuit was going on
and Microsoft was claiming it could not be done.

Surprise, the more you take out of Windows, the better it runs.

Outlier



luckydog1 -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 10:32:02 AM)

I still don't see the point, it takes like 4 clicks to set a differnt defualt media player or browser.  Are Europeons not able to figure it out?   You can download several different Media players for free....Or you can go Linux for free.  If I were Microsoft, I would simply turn off every unit of windows in the EU, and say they are no longer doing bussiness there.



Termyn8or -> RE: Microsoft: on the naughty chair. (3/1/2008 12:33:04 PM)

lucky, I get the impression that you are not a CEO or sit on the board of a muli-billion dollar, multi-national corporation. They would never do that. There are so many reasons.

First of all any shred of integrity would prevent it, but I fully agree that we can't count on that. But there are legal ramifications. There is such a thing as international tort law, and even if they pulled completely out, what they did while they were under their agreement does not constitute retroactive law, and there was an agreement. If Microshaft decides to terminate the agreement tomorrow, they still have the money they charged for their product. Therefore if they were to disable their product on purpose they could be held accountable for it, and I would bet they would.

The reason I would bet that is this : Although Windows is not as prevalent in Europe as it is in the US, it is still widely used. I am sure plenty of businesses use it and probably at least a few government agencies. Shutting down all the copies of windows in a given country, if it is a popular OS, could be said to be an act of war. It also meets all of the modern standards of an act of terrorism.

So the bottom line is they are not going to do it. Now if I sat in the big chair I might consider refusing to pay the fine and ceasing to sell the product in the EU, but even that is a big step. Add to that the fact that I do have shareholders. I have to answer to them.

Nope, as much hubris as Microhard has, I am sure they do not see that as a viable option.

T



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