RE: Self Esteem (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message

KatyLied -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 8:12:27 AM)

Sometimes as a parent, you have to work to find the fit for your child.  My eldest is accomplished, easily made the honor roll, usually high honors.  My second struggled with school, always not "working up to his potential", although teachers with master's degrees couldn't seem to help me figure out the problem.  I finally got tired of it all and enrolled him in a less traditional school setting, a tech school and was amazed at the difference.



Jeffff -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 8:16:03 AM)

The point is, if there is a " no cut" policy they don't need to work. So maybe they make the team, but don't play. Well is that good for self esteem? Then there will be mandatory playing time. Competition suffers and there is no reward for achievement.

Jeff



MsBearlee -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 8:29:12 AM)

Good for you Katy!  I’m with you and just don’t think everybody is interested in nor has to be a ‘star’…either in sports or in academics.  Some people enjoy being the worker-bees where they have time to dream, smell the flowers, and just BE.  I don’t think that makes them ‘less than’ in any way.  In fact, I think if more people would do what makes them happy instead of striving to accomplish what they think they ‘should’ do…the world would be a better place.
 
It seems to me we don’t make the time nor the room for people who, for what ever the reason, are not interested in college, or making a team, or owning the biggest house or fastest car.  Often times, in fact, those people are the easiest to be around.
 
I hope the tech school worked out for your kid.  It amazed me that Horticulture Track we all thought was a good idea for my son (he was 20 and never going to live unassisted) insisted he know 50 Latin words (dummied down from the 200 ‘normal’ kids had to learn) and what they meant.  Lordy…we are a weird society!
 
Jeffff, I agree there SHOULD be a ‘cut’…  If the kid obviously doesn’t wanna play…find something else that yanks his chain!  I think we’re on the same page, here.
 
B



KatyLied -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 8:43:34 AM)

quote:

I hope the tech school worked out for your kid.


Well he did graduate.  He tried college, it was sort of dismal, but I didn't have high expectations for him to succeed in, again, a traditional setting.  He's just a different kid in many ways.  I'm hoping he finds his place.  He's working two jobs, so I'm sure he's learning something.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 8:47:11 AM)

When I was a teacher of the learning disabled, I learned to accept that for some kids, straight C's were a sterling accomplishment!  Everyone should be able to find their own level---without being coddled along the way!

My family has never been into sports, and I was baffled at them when in school.  But in those days, very few kids in my area were involved in any kind of organized activity unless they had an aptitude for it.  We played outside!  Imagine!  We played football and tennis without assistance from adults!  Back at school, where we HAD to do stuff?  There were tryouts.  (For we music jocks, auditions.)  And guess what, if we sucked, we didn't make it.  If someone was better than we were, they got the better position.  Were we happy about it?  Maybe, maybe not.  Those that were so motivated, worked harder to get to first chair, or defense, or whatever it was they wanted.

Camille, the bus stop is at the foot of my suburban driveway.  Where the kids are picked up.  EVEN WHEN THE WEATHER IS GOOD.  This absolutely slays me!  I walked to school with my neighbor Mary Ellen until we went to high school, and her mom NEVER picked us up.  "You won't melt!" she would say.  She WOULD want to know what kept us when it took us too long to get back on winter days like this one.  It took us awhile because we had to stop and rest because Mary Ellen HAD to play the frelling FRENCH HORN.  Ever walked  3/4 mile in the snow taking turns carrying a French horn?

Yeah, we were tough in pioneer days!



KatyLied -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 8:55:26 AM)

Okay, are you ready for this.  My house is on the corner of the neighborhood bus stop.  Many people in the neighborhood pick up their kids.  They live one block away.  They drive their cars to the bus stop.  Sheesh, I do not get this.  If they have young kids, okay, walk to the bus stop, unless it's pouring down rain, and even then you will not melt from exposure.  I'm sure they would die if their kid was cut from the team or didn't make it past the first round of try-outs.



carlie310 -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 9:01:45 AM)

If the additional teams are "recreational" in nature, that's one thing.  But kids aren't stupid, they know condescension when they get it.  Don't try to fool them by calling the reading groups "Robins" "Bluebirds"  and "Cardinals"--they'll have them relabeled into "Retards" and "Brains" in no time.  You're right--self-esteem comes from real accomplishments, not being tossed a bone.

When I was in 8th grade, I tried out for cheerleading.  It was a new group, and it was the first time that school had a squad that was non-recreational.  All of the parents were up in arms about the concept of try-outs, but to the girls who were trying out it felt like we were being treated as adults for the first time.  The grown ups trusted us not to make too big an issue out of being cut.  Competition breeds excellence.  Are there times when cooperative attitudes are called for?  Of course.  And there are opportunities for all children to find their strengths and use them.  Drama. Debate. Chess. Science Olympiad.  Certamen. Track. Soccer. The cafeteria, for god's sake.

The parents who make excuses for their kids, rescue them, try to get the teachers to change their grades, defend their child to all comers--their child will never learn that the buck actually does stop with him until they suffer harsher consequences as an adult.  Those usually come in terms of unemployment, credit problems and jail time. 

As the parent of a socially-delayed child, I hate when people lower standards for her.  That gives her a distorted view of how the world will be.  I want people to understand her when she screws up & throws a temper tantrum that would be more appropriate for a child half her age, but she also needs to be accountable for her actions.  If I shielded her from the world and never taught her any lessons, she'd have that same behavior as an adult, and end up in jail.  That's not exactly my dream for her.

I just got home from registering her for school.  She starts Monday.  (Because of her delays with coping, she has been homeschooled for 3 years.)  The administration and staff were completely stunned that a parent would come to school and let them know that their child had problems, not wait for the school to stumble on it when there was a tantrum in the classroom. But I want my child to succeed--and succeed on her own merits.  If she fails, if she wasn't ready for this, then the failure will be on her own weaknesses, and we'll work on those lessons. 

The short story by Vonnegut is "Harrison Bergeron."  I wonder if those high school freshmen will read it (I read it first that year), and if they will recognize the irony.



faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 9:04:18 AM)

self eseteem doesnt exist in me.  i lost in when doc said "you probably wont live past age 20" after my 4th heart surgery at age 14..



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 9:13:57 AM)

My boss and his children are perfect examples of co dependency and raising entitled, spoiled, unable to function in the real world adults- their children are just more trophies for the parents to show off when appropriate, a way to feed their sense of needing to be needed, and thus if anything bad happens to the kids, it's a complete affront to THEM and must be stopped immediately.  Of course "bad" can include things like needing to take a bus to school in their world.

But we should take care not to swing in the other direction- generally I find parents way too caught up in their own lives to sincerely say they understand and work with their kids (no matter what they say or delude themselves about), too busy just trying to make a living at all, and too caught up in being over their own heads so they resort to whatever they were taught as kids (which was often fairly fucked up parenting as well) and repress any actual sense of becoming an independent thinking person.  Most parents really want copies.

Supporting small people to become independent big people is what's important, and that means a parent has to let go of ALL the ego, not just the entitlement part.



SubbieOnWheels -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 9:34:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Ok that brings up an interesting point. If it is good for kids who can't play to make the team? isn't it good for kids who can't sing the make the choir? Or can't play to make the band? Or can't speak well to make the debate team?


Personally, I hate the word "can't".

Playing football, singing, music, and public speaking are learned skills.  Yes, there will be those who are faster afoot, and those who are quicker of wit, and that is natural talent, but in each of the actvities you mention the singular determinant of success is the amount of effort spent in practice and training.

I would not expect a freshman to do any of these activities particularly well.  I would expect him or her to work his or her ass off if given a chance to participate.





When I was about 7 or 8, and my brother was 10 or 11, our parents decided we would take piano lessons. We began at the same time, and had the same teacher. i would struggle through scales and finger exercises; I hated practicing. meanwhile my brother was playing the difficult pieces as though he'd learned in the womb. He might have gone on to be a concert pianist, had he not decided to become a music teacher.

When it came to voice lessons, which my sister had, my parents decided not even to broach the subject with me. Holly studied opera in college, but decided to raise a family instead.

What my parents did was find something I was interested in, good at, and not intimidated by someone else in the family being better at. This happened to be writing, and I was sent to writing seminars and encouraged by compliments on my skill - some of which compliments were probably not really earned. Still, I studied and learned what I loved, and have made it a central part of my career.

The point I'm trying to make in this rambling post is that instead of trying to make a young person feel good about themselves by letting or forcing them to participate in something they don't do well, let them find what they really want to do and help them learn to do it well. Teamwork is a good concept to learn, but for goodness' sake, let them learn it in an area where they can excel.



LaTigresse -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 9:37:39 AM)

As a parent of two grown children whom I love, like and respect.......I can say the absolutely MOST painful, difficult, horrible thing I ever did as a parent was let my children fail.

I am all for being there for them, supporting them emotionally, giving them advice WHEN they ask for it, smacking them (figurative and occasionally literally) upside the head when they need it. BUT, you cannot bail your children out forever. You must allow them to fail and learn the life lessons it entails.

We've become a nation of perfectionists, all wanting instant gratification and expecting our children to be perfect little mirrors of the illusion of perfection we wish to present the world around us. It is a very abusive trend in my opinion.

I pictured my daughter as a lovely stage actress (after being the perfect child in every way of course), using the looks and dramatic abilities that are natural to her. Nope, didn't happen. She was hell as a teen and barely graduated. But the woman she is, far more wonderful than I could have imagined. The joy she brings into her clients lives and ours is more than I could have hoped for.

I pictured my son, a forest ranger, driving around in a jeep with a black lab. OMG, how funny that is now. Another that was so intelligent he was bored to tears in school and barely graduated. Ran like hell at the very idea of college. Yet has multiple certifications in electric motors, hydraulics, welding etc and is being courted by a creator of gambling machines to head their Peru R&D facility. He is a delightful man and a wonderful father. Yet he also had difficult years, entanglements with the law, some time in jail when mom refused to bail him out. There was a time when I loved him but could not stand the human being he was showing the world. I could not trust him further than I could throw the cars he stole. Now, it is the opposite.

Yes, allowing a child to fail, not rescuing them from all their mistakes, not pushing them to be what you think they should be.....at times more agony, more pain than I would wish on my exhusband. Yet, now I see the adults they are and it is all washed away. I see how strong they are, how much they have accomplished, the people they are, and I am so happy to have them in my life.




Alumbrado -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 11:29:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Ok that brings up an interesting point. If it is good for kids who can't play to make the team? isn't it good for kids who can't sing the make the choir? Or can't play to make the band? Or can't speak well to make the debate team?


Personally, I hate the word "can't".

Playing football, singing, music, and public speaking are learned skills.  Yes, there will be those who are faster afoot, and those who are quicker of wit, and that is natural talent, but in each of the actvities you mention the singular determinant of success is the amount of effort spent in practice and training.

I would not expect a freshman to do any of these activities particularly well.  I would expect him or her to work his or her ass off if given a chance to participate.





And the kids already in those activities who are talented, or who have already dumped a ton of work into developing their skill?  They should just go along for the ride?  They should pretend that the trophy for a crappy sounding orchestra means something?   Or should they just find richer parents and transfer to private schools?[;)]

C.M. Kornbluth wrote a couple of great science fiction stories...about a time in the future when everything is so dumbed down that a tiny genius percent of the population is making sure that the incompetent majority can perform brain surgery etc. safely, so that they can enjoy the 'self esteem' of being doctors and so on.

And 'self esteem' is the wagon rolling down that particular hill.

In current usage, it has come to mean 'revere one's self', 'hold above all others', 'delighted self approval'.... code for pretending that the lowest common denominator is the highest achievement, and a crutch for the insecure to revel in denial.

What we should be instilling in children and adults, is 'self regard'... the rational sense of where one stands in relation to the rest of the universe, and the security to enjoy that standing...

Or as Clint Eastwod put it so succinctly, 'A man's got to know his limitations'. We should also be teaching critical thinking, skepticism, logic, and so forth from day one...but instead we use fairy tales, and wishful thinking.

All the children cannot be above average...but that feel good mantra has become the new reality.



sub4hire -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 12:54:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Okay, are you ready for this.  My house is on the corner of the neighborhood bus stop.  Many people in the neighborhood pick up their kids.  They live one block away.  They drive their cars to the bus stop.  Sheesh, I do not get this.  If they have young kids, okay, walk to the bus stop, unless it's pouring down rain, and even then you will not melt from exposure.  I'm sure they would die if their kid was cut from the team or didn't make it past the first round of try-outs.


The only reason I can see for picking up your kid at the bus stop is for reasons like the guy in Missouri who stole the kids and kept them as sex slaves. 
There are predators out there.  Yet at the same time it goes back to being a parent and educating your kids.  If you teach them about predators the less likely they are going to go with someone.
Our bus stop is on the corner..one house away.  Last year the kids walked to it.  This year the bus is driving down the street to each kids house to drop them off.



KatyLied -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 1:03:30 PM)

Yeah, I have no issue with parents escorting/waiting for the bus.  But why not walk a block, instead of getting in your SUV and driving it?  I completely understand parents wanting to be careful because of predators.



Alumbrado -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 1:09:51 PM)

So 'predators' is the excuse for dumbing everything down? 



"Won't somebeody pleeeeeeeze think of the children?"[sm=mrpuffy.gif]



KatyLied -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 1:10:45 PM)

I blame the media for making us too scared to live.



Alumbrado -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 1:15:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I blame the media for making us too scared to live.


That is a big part of the problem.



popeye1250 -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 1:17:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-22-temkinfeb22,1,4054176,print.story

I find this troubling.What happens when these kids hit the real world and mommy and daddy can't help them. Doesn't genuine self esteem come from accomplishment? What about the kid who busts his ass to make the team? Now he won't have to.

Jeff


Jeff, you hit the nail right on the head.
Accomplishment is what creates self esteem not these "feel good" programs that they have in schools these days.
All those programs do is create kids with huge egos who are easily insulted and have a sense of entitlement.
In high school I asked the coach about football but I was 6'0" and 160 pounds, a stringbean.
His reply, "Get out of here you belong on the Track team!"
So, I became a "Cross Country" runner in high school instead. Plus, the girls had a Cross Country running team too![:)] I often found myself "falling behind" the other guys and running with the girls!
But, the other guys caught on quickly and then the Capt got pissed! lol
I'm all for letting kids go out on their own to find out what interests them.
That's what it's all about, finding something that interests you and persuing it!
I was a solid "B" student but, if I really liked a subject I'd put in a little extra effort once in a while and get an "A" just to prove to myself that I could do it.
But that's the thing, I had to really like the subject.



Gwynvyd -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 1:28:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This is more about self esteem for the parents of the kids who get cut. The generation of entitlement believes their children are entitled too.

Meanwhile the kids have to deal with the realities of the sport. The kids who should have been cut is out on a field, in over their head. Maybe the flagrant mockery can be held at bay when coaches are within hearing range, but outside their supervision there will be plenty of opportunities for mockery as result of the resentment; resentment regarding playing time, equipment, and even coaching time. How many times at practice must a ball hit a kid who shouldn't be on the team in the face? How many 'hits' on the practice field must a kid endure who doesn't belong out there? Why would a parent put their kid through this? For their personal self esteem - not their kids.

When everyone gets a trophy the kids know its worthless. Making a team when you know your talent doesn't deserve it doesn't create any self esteem. You can't legislate self esteem or make it a course curriculum. Our schools are generating a generation where homogenized mediocrity is acceptable. No failure, but also no success. Fit only for a similar mediocre society with the expectation of not being allowed to fail there either. And then the reality of the job market is presented. SURPRISE! Well at least in the public sector - for now.

A better lesson to be taught would be how to deal with failure, learn from it, and grow from it. When allowed to fail you'll know and appreciate success. Failure isn't bad. Ironic, in light of this decision, walking away proud of your best attempt that happened to result in failure may result in some temporary tears, but is a much better source of self esteem.


Exactly what he said.

My son would get puverized in Football.. everyone who knows him knows this. We do not try it because he knows he would cry like a girl if someone tackled him.. but soccer is another story. As is Fencing, and Equestrian...

If he fails we let him fail.. we don't let the coaches coddle him. He did his best effort.. and he learns a lesson. Not every one wins. That happens. You learn from what you did inncorrectly, and you make some changes and you try harder next time. That's all. If it isnt for you it isnt. No need in dragging down the rest of the team if you arent suited to it.

So much intitlement and my child couldnt possibly fail BS. We all suck sometimes.. even your sweet little Johnny and Suzie.. we *all* suck at some thing. Get the hell over it. If you havent raised your kids to let it roll off thier back, and you are trying to *live through them* and place so much importance on a sport or activity you want them to do then you are screwed up.

*just shakes her head*

it is like these moms I see who are like a size 0 complaining they are chunky or fat here and there infront of thier 10 or 12 year old girls.. and then these girls get self identity issues with thier bodies thinking they are fat too. *sighs*

Stop forcing your issues on your kids folks.

I was in a shop a while back and this twig of a woman was complaing how fat she was in these pants she was trying. Her daughter in tow.. and her daughter started looking at her self in the mirror, and her face fell.. she told her mom she was too fat too.. her mom said she could start a diet when she was 15... ( the girl was about 12ish. ) I wanted to walk up to her and just back hand her.

Gwyn



slaveluci -> RE: Self Esteem (2/22/2008 7:58:50 PM)

~Fast Reply~

Just wanted to say there seem to be some top-notch parents around here.  Katy and LaTigresse - your posts really touched me.  Your kids are fortunate to have mothers like you.  Happy (early) Mother's Day to you all[sm=flowers.gif]

luci



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
7.897949E-02