RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia

RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/19/2008 11:57:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Here's a serious question for the Americans in the group....What about when this gets used by the American Indians? I bet quite a few will want to change status. I am all in favor of letting them decide. I am relativly sure that most will choose to remain part of America, though many may want to take a status more like Samoa or Puerto Rico than they do now. If they want to renounce thier citizenship, Declare Sovreignity, and make a final payment deal, thats ok too. But I really doubt many would take it. Now the Mexican Sepratists, are going to be a whole differnt problem.... Why would Mexican Sepratists be a different problem? Should they ever be a majority in California or Texas, they would have the same status as the Albians in Kosovo, an ethnic minority in the majority in a province of a unitary country. Kosovo is like California having a majority of Mexicans declaring independence and seceeding form the Union. Of course, international politics is full of hypocrisy and double dealing but a precedence has been set that will give justification to many sepratist movements and the UN and its members (especially the backers of this move) won't be able to deny it. As for the EU in all this. This is a reason why the EU needs to be legitimised with a proper government. The start of this sad affair in the first place was Germany giving Croatia the nod and the wink that it would recognize it if it seceeded from Yugoslavia. Germany then refused troops to help sort out the situation and then Blair had to persuade Clinton to help. I doubt this affair is finished by a long way, too much disagreement amongst Europeans as to the wisdom of what has been sanctioned here.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 9:39:28 AM)
Clinton also tried to tell us that this was "a Nato operation." One problem with that, no "Nato" country was attacked.

luckydog1 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 9:46:19 AM)
Meat cleaver, So millions of Albanians moved to Kosovo illegally creating a majority, like Mexicans into California. Thats interesting, I was not aware of that. Meat, what if if millions of Jews moved in and wanted to create thier own state? You would of course also support that, right? Same thing eh?

meatcleaver -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 11:53:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat cleaver, So millions of Albanians moved to Kosovo illegally creating a majority, like Mexicans into California. Thats interesting, I was not aware of that. Meat, what if if millions of Jews moved in and wanted to create thier own state? You would of course also support that, right? Same thing eh? There isn't millions of of people in Kosovo to start off with, there is 1.5 million I believe. At the beginning of the 19th century it was estimated that 40% of the population was Albanian, by the turn of the 20th century, 50% were Albanian. By the start of the civil war 75% were Albanian and now about 90% are Albanian. So you can see, the rise in the Albanian population has risen dramatically in proportion to the Serb population over the last couple of decades. However, the point is, Kosovo is historically an intergral part of Serbia and according to any international law, treaty or charter you care to call upon, the independence of Kosovo is illegal and the powers that agree to Kosovo's independence obviously don't believe in the rule of law. Tell me again what the US, Britain and the rest of NATO are fighting for in Iraq and Afghanistan? Please refresh my memory if I have got it wrong that the wars there are being fought for the rule of law and civilised values? I'm no lover of Serbia but the demonising of the Serbs by the west to fullfill what it sees as the right policies is exactly what the west has done to the Palestinians. I'm not sure if you are talking about Israel when you mention millions of Jews wanting to create their own state but we have seen what happened in Trans-Jordania with the international community not caring about the rule of law and justice. There has been a conflict for the last 60 years.

Politesub53 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 1:48:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat cleaver, So millions of Albanians moved to Kosovo illegally creating a majority, like Mexicans into California. Thats interesting, I was not aware of that. Meat, what if if millions of Jews moved in and wanted to create thier own state? You would of course also support that, right? Same thing eh? Albanians have made up the largest part of the population for over a hundred years. Theres nothing illegal about it and its not just happened. There is also a large Muslim Serbian population in Kosovo, many having more in common with the Albanians due to a shared religion. Yugoslavia itself granted Kosovo autonomy in 1974.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 2:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat cleaver, So millions of Albanians moved to Kosovo illegally creating a majority, like Mexicans into California. Thats interesting, I was not aware of that. Meat, what if if millions of Jews moved in and wanted to create thier own state? You would of course also support that, right? Same thing eh? There isn't millions of of people in Kosovo to start off with, there is 1.5 million I believe. At the beginning of the 19th century it was estimated that 40% of the population was Albanian, by the turn of the 20th century, 50% were Albanian. By the start of the civil war 75% were Albanian and now about 90% are Albanian. So you can see, the rise in the Albanian population has risen dramatically in proportion to the Serb population over the last couple of decades. However, the point is, Kosovo is historically an intergral part of Serbia and according to any international law, treaty or charter you care to call upon, the independence of Kosovo is illegal and the powers that agree to Kosovo's independence obviously don't believe in the rule of law. Tell me again what the US, Britain and the rest of NATO are fighting for in Iraq and Afghanistan? Please refresh my memory if I have got it wrong that the wars there are being fought for the rule of law and civilised values? I'm no lover of Serbia but the demonising of the Serbs by the west to fullfill what it sees as the right policies is exactly what the west has done to the Palestinians. I'm not sure if you are talking about Israel when you mention millions of Jews wanting to create their own state but we have seen what happened in Trans-Jordania with the international community not caring about the rule of law and justice. There has been a conflict for the last 60 years. Meat, you make some good points. This is exactly why I want my country to start minding it's own business.

luckydog1 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 5:32:51 PM)
The other difference with the idea of Mexican sepratists in the South west, is that they stole the land from the Natives. the Navajo, Ute and others would be the ones with claim, not the Spanish imposed borders.

Owner59 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/20/2008 6:12:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Clinton also tried to tell us that this was "a Nato operation." One problem with that, no "Nato" country was attacked. Popeye, It was a NATO operation b/c NATO and the Europeans said it was. The reason they finally did something was because of the huge pits and mass graves full of dead civilians. Ya know that saying that came after WWII,"never again"?It didn`t apply just to Jews. The Serbs were truly evil and weren`t going to stop until every town was cleansed and every women was systematically raped in the rape camps. Those motherfuckers were spurred on by the lack of action and would have completed a holocaust there had we not stopped them. We did the right thing,Popeye. They also did it for security reasons because there was a danger that the war would spread to other countries. NATO did it for selfish reasons.

meatcleaver -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 1:46:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 The other difference with the idea of Mexican sepratists in the South west, is that they stole the land from the Natives. the Navajo, Ute and others would be the ones with claim, not the Spanish imposed borders. Have you ever been to Mexico? If you have you will notice that around 80% of Mexicans are indigenous to the continent of America and only about 20% (largely affluent Mexicans) are of European desent. I have noticed on my trips to California that most Mexicans there appear to be of indigenous American desent so they have more right to California than European Americans have. However, this isn't the argument, the argument on which the Kosovo decision hinged, was that there is a majority population that wants independence, not whether the population has an historical right to the land. This means in theory, (if the US is consistent) a majority of Mexicans in California would have the right to declare independence! My guess is that most of the people involved are probably ethnically the same people anyway, just cultural differences.

Politesub53 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 2:09:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 We did the right thing,Popeye. They also did it for security reasons because there was a danger that the war would spread to other countries. NATO did it for selfish reasons. Who is "WE" and how do you make out NATO did it for selfish reasons. There had already been the conflict in Bosnia ect and the Washington Declaration of 1999 or there abouts cleared the way for Nato to act in cases of genocide ect.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 3:26:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Clinton also tried to tell us that this was "a Nato operation." One problem with that, no "Nato" country was attacked. Popeye, It was a NATO operation b/c NATO and the Europeans said it was. The reason they finally did something was because of the huge pits and mass graves full of dead civilians. Ya know that saying that came after WWII,"never again"?It didn`t apply just to Jews. The Serbs were truly evil and weren`t going to stop until every town was cleansed and every women was systematically raped in the rape camps. Those motherfuckers were spurred on by the lack of action and would have completed a holocaust there had we not stopped them. We did the right thing,Popeye. They also did it for security reasons because there was a danger that the war would spread to other countries. NATO did it for selfish reasons. Be careful where you are going for this.... Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein killed more civilians in genocide than Milosevic and the Serbs.

Owner59 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 8:12:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 We did the right thing,Popeye. They also did it for security reasons because there was a danger that the war would spread to other countries. NATO did it for selfish reasons. Who is "WE" and how do you make out NATO did it for selfish reasons. There had already been the conflict in Bosnia ect and the Washington Declaration of 1999 or there abouts cleared the way for Nato to act in cases of genocide ect. Who is "WE" and how do you make out NATO did it for selfish reasons. "We" refers to NATO ,including the US.I also meant it in the general way,as in we the(more) civilized world. Our selfish reasons were the best and most positive type of selfishness.Regional peace and stopping that (near) genocide was in the selfish best interests of Europe.Aside of the fact that intervening in that slaughter was the right thing to do. Those mass graves were filled with people that looked like they could have come from Cincinnati,Santa Cruz ,or Pittsburgh,.......it was heartbreaking. Knowing that each town would have it`s own mass pit if we didn`t stop them was grim,and what finally got "Us" motivated to do something. We gave those motherfuckers every chance to stop.We let them destroy Sarajevo.That beautiful Olympic city,just torn in half.The Serbs set up anti-air craft guns on a near by hillside and just shot into the city for years,un-molested. The (Serb)motherfuckers held the arsenal and air-force after the Soviets pulled out,and used it to great affect against men armed with only rifles and RPGs. They would have ethically cleansed every town,systematically raped every woman and stolen everything they didn`t burn up/down. ~~~~~~~~~ It came to a head for me one day at a customer`s house. I had heard about the rape camps on c-span from a crazy,very entertaining right-winger from California named Bob Dornan.He was speaking on the floor,railing about the camps with truly sincere outrage asking why don`t we do something. By this time,those camps and areas where young women were gathered, held and released only after being raped were known fact and confirmed. My customer explained that the Serbs were using rape to destroy and ruin them as Muslim women.The Serbs were using wholesale rape as a weapon of war,that it was planned and very methodical.Very grim.A very nasty bunch. When I heard that NATO jets were destroying their armor,tanks and APCs,I was overjoyed. We did the right thing.Don`t get me going on how neo-cons say we didn`t do the right thing.But that`s for another day,another thread.

Owner59 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 8:29:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Clinton also tried to tell us that this was "a Nato operation." One problem with that, no "Nato" country was attacked. Popeye, It was a NATO operation b/c NATO and the Europeans said it was. The reason they finally did something was because of the huge pits and mass graves full of dead civilians. Ya know that saying that came after WWII,"never again"?It didn`t apply just to Jews. The Serbs were truly evil and weren`t going to stop until every town was cleansed and every women was systematically raped in the rape camps. Those motherfuckers were spurred on by the lack of action and would have completed a holocaust there had we not stopped them. We did the right thing,Popeye. They also did it for security reasons because there was a danger that the war would spread to other countries. NATO did it for selfish reasons. Be careful where you are going for this.... Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein killed more civilians in genocide than Milosevic and the Serbs. If SH had played ball with us and not invaded Kuwait,he would still be shaking hands with Donald Rumsfeld. We didn`t invade Iraq to stop a genocide.(note: talking points are not necessarily interchangeable) With over a half million Iraqi civilian deaths(so far),you ought`a be careful where you`re going with(for) this,...

Politesub53 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 8:54:57 AM)
Owner thanks for clarifying. Its one of the few things Blair got right and full credit to him for acting when he did.

luckydog1 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 9:25:35 AM)
But meatcleaver the majority of people in Isreal are Jews....

meatcleaver -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 9:28:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 But meatcleaver the majority of people in Isreal are Jews.... Well they are now since the zionists ethnically cleansed the region and then created a state. That is why many Arabs question Israel's right toi exist. It was set up through violence and not agreement. I know many cite the Balfour declaration in regard to Israel's right to exist but Balfour was a religious nut and anyway, the zionists ignored the most important parts of the Balfour Declaration even isf it had some validity so I guess which ever way you look at it, the Balfour Declaration is irrelevent. Serbia isnot questioning the majority rule as they see Kosovo as an integral part of Serbia, they are questioning the right of a majority in a province (who are a minority in the country) breaking away from the unitary state.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 9:45:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 The other difference with the idea of Mexican sepratists in the South west, is that they stole the land from the Natives. the Navajo, Ute and others would be the ones with claim, not the Spanish imposed borders. Have you ever been to Mexico? If you have you will notice that around 80% of Mexicans are indigenous to the continent of America and only about 20% (largely affluent Mexicans) are of European desent. I have noticed on my trips to California that most Mexicans there appear to be of indigenous American desent so they have more right to California than European Americans have. However, this isn't the argument, the argument on which the Kosovo decision hinged, was that there is a majority population that wants independence, not whether the population has an historical right to the land. This means in theory, (if the US is consistent) a majority of Mexicans in California would have the right to declare independence! My guess is that most of the people involved are probably ethnically the same people anyway, just cultural differences. Meat, yes, they're "indiginous" alright but they're descended from Mayan and Aztec Indians who were "indiginous" to Mexico and Central America. The Navajos and Apaches are "indiginous" to the Southwest U.S. and were as we know very territorial.

luckydog1 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 9:51:56 AM)
Popeye, lots of people don't think like that, they are just Indians, it's usually an intregal part of thier world view. Spain, Ukraine, same place, just Europeons you know... Tibet, Cambodia, just Asians.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 10:14:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Popeye, lots of people don't think like that, they are just Indians, it's usually an intregal part of thier world view. Spain, Ukraine, same place, just Europeons you know... Tibet, Cambodia, just Asians. Luckydog, oh sure, we're all "brothers and sisters" when it comes to immigration to the U.S. or Europe or Australia! But somehow that isn't the case at all if it involves immigration from India to Afganistan or Africa. Seems it's only the case if it involves immigration to "Western" countries. Gee, I wonder why that is?

meatcleaver -> RE: Bush recognizes independence of Kosovo from Serbia (2/21/2008 11:23:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 The other difference with the idea of Mexican sepratists in the South west, is that they stole the land from the Natives. the Navajo, Ute and others would be the ones with claim, not the Spanish imposed borders. Have you ever been to Mexico? If you have you will notice that around 80% of Mexicans are indigenous to the continent of America and only about 20% (largely affluent Mexicans) are of European desent. I have noticed on my trips to California that most Mexicans there appear to be of indigenous American desent so they have more right to California than European Americans have. However, this isn't the argument, the argument on which the Kosovo decision hinged, was that there is a majority population that wants independence, not whether the population has an historical right to the land. This means in theory, (if the US is consistent) a majority of Mexicans in California would have the right to declare independence! My guess is that most of the people involved are probably ethnically the same people anyway, just cultural differences. Meat, yes, they're "indiginous" alright but they're descended from Mayan and Aztec Indians who were "indiginous" to Mexico and Central America. The Navajos and Apaches are "indiginous" to the Southwest U.S. and were as we know very territorial. Didn't you kill, desperse and put them all into concentration camps, oops, I mean reservations? My point still stands, Mexicans are indigenous to the Americas, Europeans aren't so that gives them more moral right than Europeans and anyway, didn't you steal California from Mexico?[8\|]

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