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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 12:59:57 PM

LadyHathor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I was thinking (always dangerous)

If waterboarding is acceptable as a means of interrogation, and the confessions and testimony forthcoming is valid - then given that there is sufficient evidence for at least some inconsistencies in the accounts provided publicly which give rise to suspicion of government involvement.......... would the President and his administration submit themselves to such a method of questioning, so that our minds may be put to rest?

E

My teen is hoping that the groups that want Bush arrested after he leaves office will succeed--yet sadly LadyEllen, this things will die and we never know---torture has been around since time began and we are kept in the dark---

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 1:04:55 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bob!!! You're back!

I called him first. But I'm in socialist mode. So I'll share. I s'pose I can't be selfish ALL the time.

Grumble, grumble.

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 1:05:30 PM

kdsub

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You’ve a lot of courage LadyEllen in wanting to dunk the Devil. Anyway… why not start in your own country first…was there not collusion between Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush? Start with Blair… then you could tell if Bush was lying or not.

Hey…I’ve another idea…why not volunteer to let al-Qaeda capture you… then show the world that it was all a lie when they cut the heads of their prisoners off. You could prove it really didn't happen... it was all a plot by the Bush administration to discredit them.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/13/2008 1:10:38 PM >

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 1:09:29 PM

kittinSol

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Well in all fairness, Bushy started it. Blair wasn't much more than Bushy's lapdog. Back then! Because now, you'll find Blair is out of office - there was a general election in the United Kingdom, a little while back.

Baby B, on the other hand, is still around... and it is the CIA that is at the center of the current splashy splashy scandal. Isn't it?

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 1:12:59 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Well in all fairness, Bushy started it. Blair wasn't much more than Bushy's lapdog. Back then! Because now, you'll find Blair is out of office - there was a general election in the United Kingdom, a little while back.

Baby B, on the other hand, is still around... and it is the CIA that is at the center of the current splashy splashy scandal. Isn't it?

Sadly we had no election, and Blairs sidekick is still in office. Its okay though, i can wait.

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 1:13:54 PM

kittinSol

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Shit you're right. Blair just stood down.

That's what happens when you live far, far away from the real world

!

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 1:15:12 PM

Politesub53

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Ouch....

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 2:09:54 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You’ve a lot of courage LadyEllen in wanting to dunk the Devil. Anyway… why not start in your own country first…was there not collusion between Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush? Start with Blair… then you could tell if Bush was lying or not.

Hey…I’ve another idea…why not volunteer to let al-Qaeda capture you… then show the world that it was all a lie when they cut the heads of their prisoners off. You could prove it really didn't happen... it was all a plot by the Bush administration to discredit them.

Butch

Hey - I'm debating a principle here using a certain example, not endorsing or suggesting the use of coercive methods.....

Not really sure what you mean by the second comment? Care to elaborate, or is it dunking time again?

E

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 2:35:57 PM

luckydog1

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LE, I suppose the question really boils down to the level of reason to suspect complicity. There are several international groups that wanted Zawahiri et al, before 911 occured. They were not grabbed at random with no cause, then waterboarded, then confessed. In thier trials the confession under durress, will not be the only evidence. In fact it probably won't be relevant. As people have already noted, the information we got was used to hunt down others, some with missles.

I see the political angel of putting them on trial, and don't think it should happen. Yeah, it will help elect Republicans, but it's strategically bad for the Nation. They should as per Geneva be held incommunicado untill such time as they are no longer a Security threat.

As for George and 911, there is no evidence of complcity, except in the minds of a very few people. You are a smart woman and if you would like to send me what you think is the strongest evidence in e-mail, I will explain to you why it in't real. Doing it on the boards produces such a predictable hijack result, e-mail would be preferable.

If there was some real evidence, I would say let the dunking start tomorow. Ball Gag transport, dark cool room, annoying music, public execution, the whole 9 yards. Without a doubt.

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 2:45:32 PM

LadyEllen

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Luckydog - I have no evidence of wrongdoing by anyone in the administration; I was making a hypothetical point, regarding the suspicions of some about complicity and the validity of the techniques commended by the administration to elicit valuable testimony. Personally I believe any possible complicity is a moot point in that it will never come to anything.

Your point about Zawahiri though is important I think, as it relates to the wider issues;

if there was sufficient evidence for conviction prior to the use of coercive techniques, then there was no need for the use of those techniques

if there was not sufficient evidence for conviction prior to the use of coercive techniques, then there was no justification for the use of those techniques, or indeed for his apprehension in the first place

the first instance indicates that the techniques were used as ordinary torture - designed to humiliate and psychologically injure

the second instance indicates something more dangerous - that anyone, anywhere can be apprehended and evidence produced for their guilt by way of their coerced testimony, whether they are actually guilty or not.

E

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/13/2008 8:59:08 PM

luckydog1

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LE, like I said before, I doubt any coerced testimony would be used in a trial. It's not needed. He was questioned under duress to find out millitary information to be used in the fight against Al-queda. Not for civilian prosecution. The only reason I could see for that sort of evidence to be brought into court, would be to have a segment of the Democrats demanding they be let go, and given compensation durring the election. thats the only reason I can imagine this happening at all.

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RE: not another 911 thread - 2/15/2008 12:32:05 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Luckydog - I have no evidence of wrongdoing by anyone in the administration; I was making a hypothetical point, regarding the suspicions of some about complicity and the validity of the techniques commended by the administration to elicit valuable testimony.

LE; with certain posters when they desire to see evidence what they are referring to is Bush standing up in public and publically admitting such things.   Then after doing so beating them into unconsciousness with it.

FYI:

Q: This is a question that's been asked by many Americans, but especially by the widows of September 11th. How were we so asleep at the switch? How did a war targeting civilians arrive on our homeland with seemingly no warning?

Rumsfeld: There were lots of warnings. The intelligence information that we get, it sometimes runs into the hundreds of alerts or pieces of intelligence a week. One looks at the worldwide, it's thousands. And the task is to sort through it and see what you can find. And as you find things, the law enforcement officials who have the responsibility to deal with that type of thing -- the FBI at the federal level, and although it is not, it's an investigative service as opposed to a police force, it's not a federal police force, as you know. But the state and local law enforcement officials have the responsibility for dealing with those kinds of issues. They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them.

So of course people who actually listen to what these guys say pick up on little things like "missles" being used and someone like rummy admitting it.

Who ever said there is no way so many people could be involved and keep it a secret, well, apparently they are correct after all.

I would suggest this is how the people get the truth in this country. The rest is the blue pill.
Oh and the source is really unreliable too.

U.S. Department of Defense Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
News Transcript

The bottom line is that you cannot believe a damn thing any government says nor those who apologize and in the final analysis defend the government.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/15/2008 1:00:27 PM >

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