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Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 10:33:48 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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I have to begin by saying that I seldom start discussions and I have never started one in Off Topic.  So please be kind!
I have seen this a few times in some of the political discussion lately, and I have heard it often from friends and acquaintances in real time. 
What does this mean?  Everytime I ask, and even when I read the expression the same examples are always given.
A fiscal conservative/social liberal is one who usually immediately states that they are Pro-Choice for Women and support the idea of gay marriage.  The end...
Frankly, I am not Pro-Choice, but that is a personal stance.  I am less opposed to someone having the right to make the decision (it is none of My business) and more opposed to the fact that some of this is supported with tax dollars.  That makes it somewhat My business. 
I am also opposed to gay "marriage".  Please note that I use the term marriage, since I equate it with the original meaning of the word which included the fact that it was a covenant made in the site of God as well as man.  I have truly no opposition to civil unions (even for hets who marry in a civil ceremony) and reserving the term marriage for the more traditional church ceremony.  In the end it really makes no difference and I have no problem with a legal recognition of a union in the eyes of the state which would automatically bestow the same rights as the traditionally married het couple.  Yet I am automatically put into a category of "hates gays".

So then we come to everything else.  I keep wondering, other than the tax dollars used to support something that is morally repugnant to Me (The Pro-Choice thing) how can someone be fiscally conservative, but socially liberal?  All the social programs you would seemingly support will cost more money that we don't have unless we add another tax.   And that is not being fiscally conservative. 
Do you mean that you wish the money that is being taxed was spent in a more efficient manner?   What would you cut and what would you add?  How would you change things so that you could be fiscally wise yet generous with those who are deserving of a hand up?   How much of a say do you think the Federal Governemnt should have in our every day lives?   And can this ever be achieved with the current state of politics today? 
We all have shades of gray and it is wrong to jump to some of the conclusions I see on this board.  Yet the moment anyone says thay are for so and so, they are also <fill in your sterotype of choice!>
So what does it mean to be a Fiscal Conservative but a Social Liberal?  Or how do you not fit into all the automatic pockets into which we are placed when we are candid about various issues?  

**Note that I hope that this does not deteriorate into a screaming match about Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice or Gay Marriage vs. No Gay Marriage.  That is not what this is supposed to be about.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 2/2/2008 10:36:51 PM >


_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 10:48:45 PM   
Stephann


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Hi,

I fit that term to a T, and have used it for years.

I believe in social freedom, or liberty.  Anyone should be free to do anything they want, so long as it doesn't infringe on the benefits of their fellow citizens.  Wanna dance naked on your head while being buggered by a dozen midgets?  Go for it.  Like peeing in a litterbox instead of the toilet?  Help yourself.  Wanna trim my hedges?  BZZZZZZZZZZZZ sorry, buddy, those are my hedges to maim how I like.  It means your liberty ends where mine starts, and vice versa.  I believe a good number of social engineering laws should be taken off the books, and ALL forms of tax breaks repealed; our current system of class warfare through taxation (tax rich people a ton...except for their million and one exemptions, tax the poor nothing...except their 19% social security taxes?  No go for me.)

But I'm fiscally conservative.  I believe in minimal taxes for EVERYONE.  Not just the rich, not just the poor.  Flat taxes are the way for me; everyone has to get the same sized wet bite of their ham sandwich taken by Uncle Sam, whether they bought it at a bistro for $80 or from a vendor on the street for $0.80.  And taxes should be low; bloated military, bloated social security, bloated federal programs, and Uncle Sam employing more people than any other entity on this continent.

Essentially, I'm normally branded a 'moderate' for this.  Republicans are traditionally (supposedly) fiscally conservatives, while Democrats are socially liberal.  I don't fit in either camp, because I don't believe in the government telling me who I can marry or why, nor do I think I should be paying for a government grant to fund the artificial insemination for the lesbian couple next door.  I'm anything but moderate in my views, but because I don't align with any traditional party I have to be lumped in the derisively snarled at "Independent" class.  Typically, I vote Republican slightly more often though; if for no other reason, than the current court system has traditionally supported more freedoms and works as a nice balance against congress.  This isn't to say I like the Status Quo; only that I find Republicans to be, generally, more focused on cutting taxes and programs than Democrats.  I'm finding that change in recent years, mind you, with Bush and his damned War.

That about sums it up.  Questions?


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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 10:58:36 PM   
TheHeretic


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       These are terms that could be applied to me very easily, GDG.  My social liberalism goes well beyond supporting the right of choice.  As far as I'm concerned, gay marriage is a jobs program for divorce lawyers, but I'll support it, or a civil-unions package that deals with some pretty nasty injustices.

       Where I differ on the typical list of Liberal/bleeding heart causes is not in seeing the problem, but in the solution.  I don't think government is the answer.  I'd much rather see the tasks of elevating people in the hands of other people, rather than a beaurocracy.

      I'd like to end poverty, hunger, illiteracy, the various hateful "ism's," but I disagree strongly with the social/fiscal liberals on how to do it.

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 11:23:01 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
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From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Hi,

I fit that term to a T, and have used it for years.

I believe in social freedom, or liberty.  Anyone should be free to do anything they want, so long as it doesn't infringe on the benefits of their fellow citizens.  Wanna dance naked on your head while being buggered by a dozen midgets?  Go for it.  Like peeing in a litterbox instead of the toilet?  Help yourself.  Wanna trim my hedges?  BZZZZZZZZZZZZ sorry, buddy, those are my hedges to maim how I like.  It means your liberty ends where mine starts, and vice versa.  I believe a good number of social engineering laws should be taken off the books, and ALL forms of tax breaks repealed; our current system of class warfare through taxation (tax rich people a ton...except for their million and one exemptions, tax the poor nothing...except their 19% social security taxes?  No go for me.)

But I'm fiscally conservative.  I believe in minimal taxes for EVERYONE.  Not just the rich, not just the poor.  Flat taxes are the way for me; everyone has to get the same sized wet bite of their ham sandwich taken by Uncle Sam, whether they bought it at a bistro for $80 or from a vendor on the street for $0.80.  And taxes should be low; bloated military, bloated social security, bloated federal programs, and Uncle Sam employing more people than any other entity on this continent.

Essentially, I'm normally branded a 'moderate' for this.  Republicans are traditionally (supposedly) fiscally conservatives, while Democrats are socially liberal.  I don't fit in either camp, because I don't believe in the government telling me who I can marry or why, nor do I think I should be paying for a government grant to fund the artificial insemination for the lesbian couple next door.  I'm anything but moderate in my views, but because I don't align with any traditional party I have to be lumped in the derisively snarled at "Independent" class.  Typically, I vote Republican slightly more often though; if for no other reason, than the current court system has traditionally supported more freedoms and works as a nice balance against congress.  This isn't to say I like the Status Quo; only that I find Republicans to be, generally, more focused on cutting taxes and programs than Democrats.  I'm finding that change in recent years, mind you, with Bush and his damned War.

That about sums it up.  Questions?


 
*laffing*  A few questions:
 
What social engineering laws would you think should come off the books? 
When you say social liberal, you seem to be referring to your freedoms as opposed to the "social liberalism" I usually hear about, which is "We need to take care of all these poor people (I don't mean financially poor when I use that word, but disadvantaged in some way, i.e. handicapped, gay, black, hispanic, illegal, etc.)  So please correct Me if I am misunderstanding.
How do we strike the balance?  With your lower taxes, do you feel that the money can be re-appropriated to a more efficient and morally good use as opposed to what we have now?  Bloat!  A good word that I use often.
I am one of those oft maligned "independants" also.  But I too have had a tendency in the past to vote Repub due to the fiscal and more (to Me) logical approach.  I am no longer there, of course.  In full agreement with the out of control spending.  I have no major party candidate (that will end up with the nomination) that I can even come close to.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 11:33:30 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      These are terms that could be applied to me very easily, GDG.  My social liberalism goes well beyond supporting the right of choice.  As far as I'm concerned, gay marriage is a jobs program for divorce lawyers, but I'll support it, or a civil-unions package that deals with some pretty nasty injustices.

      Where I differ on the typical list of Liberal/bleeding heart causes is not in seeing the problem, but in the solution.  I don't think government is the answer.  I'd much rather see the tasks of elevating people in the hands of other people, rather than a beaurocracy.

     I'd like to end poverty, hunger, illiteracy, the various hateful "ism's," but I disagree strongly with the social/fiscal liberals on how to do it.


Bold emphasis Mine.
 
Exactly.  Frankly what I see is an enabling by the governement so that people are now caught between a rock and a hard place.  It is scary to face the necessary reform, so maintaining the status quo and accepting the inevitable power exchange (isn't that a funny concept?) becomes second nature.  More power to the governement, less freedom for the people.  But they think they are safe.
One of the reasons I enjoyed reading Michael Crighton's State of Fear was not that he made good points about the global warming theory in the storyline, but that he honed in on the fact that governments (especially large ones like the USA) find it necessary as well as successful to keep us all in a state of fear in order to maintain control.  It does seem to work!  There will always be something conjured up to make people afraid and then they step in to make it better.  It gets served up all the time, and people eat it up. 
Whoever buys the governement is in charge.  And we know who is buying the government.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 11:36:17 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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I'm a fiscal conservative and social liberal. But I also think there is a necessary interplay between the two.

I support choice. I figure paying for it is a public good if it means we don't have unwanted children being raised as wards of the state for their first 18 years. And no thanks to crack babies, I say we should practically force abort the unborn fetuses of addicts.

I support gay marriage. Rights have to be the same for everyone so if non-gays get a civil marriage then so do gay people. If we stop calling it marriage and call it "civil union" instead, then no problem. I just can't get behind separate but equal, that doesn't work and isn't fair.

We are wastefully championing dead energy sources like coal and oil when we should be throwing money behind all kinds of alternate sources of energy. The government shouldn't play favorites that way.

But most corporate welfare should end.

I believe in free education as long as someone keeps their marks high. If the marks slip, then out they go into the working world. While school is free I support programs like personal fitness, swimming, tennis, track, football, soccer, basketball, music, art, literature, rhetoric/debate, drama, metal and wood shop, auto mechanics, etc. The works.

I believe in short patent and copyrights as stated in the U.S. Constitution originally. Maybe even shorter limits rather than longer ones (as has been the trend instead). I support the use and reuse of ideas in the creative marketplace, but I support those rights for everyone and not just a few corporate hogs like Disney.

I believe in rehabilitating and re-socializing people after misadventure. Punishment doesn't work nor do private labor forces like Unicor. People need to be supported in becoming productive members of society. I oppose the death penalty because the state shouldn't have a collective right we don't have as individuals to take another's life away from him.

I support universal healthcare because all it would really take is one nasty-ass pandemic to teach us all a very harsh lesson in selectively administrating benefits only to those that can afford it. Chew on that one...

I believe in a solid infrastructure for communications and transportation. I don't favor too many private corporations being involved because it just leads to redundancy and reduced effectiveness over vasts areas of land and water.

I support NASA and the sciences generally. I think we often learn more by accident than is discovered intentionally.

I believe in taxing earnings over certain amounts very heavily because ultimately:
"Behind every great fortune there is a crime." - Honore de Balzac

I could go on...




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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 11:45:26 PM   
popeye1250


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Stephann, we're very close on that!
That's why I like Mitt Romney, he pledged to Audit the govt. from "top to bottom!"
He'll definately cut out some "pork".
I don't think my govt. should be spending "our" money on things like "foreign aid", debt forgivness which is just bailing out big banks who made bad loans to third world countries.
Also, why should U.S. Citizens be paying for "pensions" for foreign diplomats and personel in the "U.N." and Nato and a few others?
Shouldn't their *own countries* be paying for their pensions?
Was it "Screw the U.S. Taxpayers Week" when they did that?
We have probably a million people working for the govt with BS, BA, and Master's degrees who could be replaced by secretaries at 1/2 what we're paying these bloated layabouts. You don't need a "degree" to shuffle paperwork!
And we could save a Buttload of money by getting our Troops out of more than 130 countries! MAJOR savings there that could go towards our national debt and Mitt Romney will do it!
Want War with Iran? Vote for McCain. He'd be twice as bad as Bush!
And he's got an "uncontrollable" temper, a huge ego, years of heavy alchohol abuse (one of Kennedy's drinking buddies) and for sure he would get us into some MAJOR serious trouble. And I'm a career military veteran telling you that.
He's one of Bush's "Capo de Regimes." Do you want that lunatic in the White House? Not me, I don't like Nuclear Bombs!
Far too much money is being spent outside the U.S. and that's not counting Afganistan and Iraq.
I believe in Freedom and I'm a Populist too, "for the people".
I believe in minor govt interfereance in our affairs.
*OUR* govt is supposed to be there to *SERVE* us not to DICTATE to us like what is happening now.
I think Presidents should only be on the tv maybe twice a year and they should be concerned about what "THE PEOPLE" think and not try to tell us what "they" think.
I don't give a rat's ass what a President thinks, just get the job done.
Clinton was like a moth to the kleig lights! It was disgusting.
You'd turn on the t.v. and he'd be talking to the press 8, 10, 12 times a day!
And if they're going to take a "trip" over water it better be the Missisippi River.
They need to stay out of the problems of foreign countries!
They're there to take care of *OUR* country not foreign countries!
That's the main problem with our govt, *they're doing a lot of things that they just shouldn't be doing!*
Between Bush and Clinton I've had it with govt. I want them to STFU and do what the People TELL them to do!
With the pork and *absolute corruption* we pay for we could have decent healthcare for all citizens!
Now, like Stephann said, if you want to go out in the back yard and fuck a goat please do it at night so the neighbors don't see.
Want to have a "Civil Union Ceremony" with two guys or two women, go right ahead and if you're having Roast Beef or Prime Rib at the party afterwards by all means please include *me* in your invitation list!
Want to smoke a j-bar like Willie Nelson? Go right ahead! Just don't get behind the wheel afterwards!
It's called "Live and let live."


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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/2/2008 11:56:03 PM   
CuriousLord


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Back in Sociology 101, one of the things we studied is that upper-class individuals tended to be more socially liberal while more fiscally convservative.  People with less money often were the reverse: socially convservative and fiscally liberal.  Afterall, it's people in the upper classes who mostly want extra rights and people in the lower classes who want extra money.  Of course, these are just generalizations though ones which have apparently been scientifically arrived at.

Myself?  Yeah, I sorta fall into the social-liberal/fiscal-conservative tag.  Gay unions, sure.  Gay marriage.. whatever the churches say; religious institutions are always going to be harbringers of ignorance, and this right is allowed to them under the current common interpretation of the Constitution.

I'm heavily pro-life.  I do not see it as a personal choice but a crime; it's my business in the same way that a man raping a woman in a back alley is my business.. that man's harming another human being.

In general?  I'm anything-flies-as-long-as-it-doesn't-hurt-others.  Least of evils when necessary.

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 12:12:19 AM   
carlie310


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FR~~

I'm pro-choice, pro-civil union, pro-gun control, but on at least 2 websites that tell you who you are supposed to vote for, I came up a social conservative.  I'm not sure how that happens, but I think that my wish for someone to attempt enforcing our immigration laws did the trick.  For whatever reason, I'm pretty sure that 20 years ago my same answers would have put me out on the left somewhere. 

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 12:22:55 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlie310

FR~~

I'm pro-choice, pro-civil union, pro-gun control, but on at least 2 websites that tell you who you are supposed to vote for, I came up a social conservative.  I'm not sure how that happens, but I think that my wish for someone to attempt enforcing our immigration laws did the trick.  For whatever reason, I'm pretty sure that 20 years ago my same answers would have put me out on the left somewhere. 


Carlie, that "enforcing our immigration laws" stuff befuddles me when I see candidates for public office "discussing" it like it's "ok" either way.
Since *when* did enforcing our laws become "optional?"
If they're not willing to enforce our laws that are "on the books" now should they be running for office in the first place?
It's "part of the job."

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 6:26:32 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

And no thanks to crack babies, I say we should practically force abort the unborn fetuses of addicts.



Would you also support the forcible sterilization of crack mothers?

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 6:43:17 AM   
Sanity


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"force abort"?

I could foresee that going a whole lot of places


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

And no thanks to crack babies, I say we should practically force abort the unborn fetuses of addicts.



Would you also support the forcible sterilization of crack mothers?


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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 6:50:15 AM   
Foititis


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To me they really go hand in hand. I mean I'm pro-choice, pro gay marriage and all for saving the whales I just don't think we need to spend millions of dollars on funds to save the whales when NPOs already do that. To me being a social liberal and a fiscal conservative leads to social change for the better yet maintains a stable economy.

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 6:57:25 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

"force abort"?

I could foresee that going a whole lot of places


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

And no thanks to crack babies, I say we should practically force abort the unborn fetuses of addicts.



Would you also support the forcible sterilization of crack mothers?



Indeed!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 7:02:40 AM   
Leatherist


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1. Make it a felony to pay anyone wages under the table for more than 50 hours a year. You get caught hiring an illegal-you go to jail for a year.

Audit the federal government and appraise the workers on a merit system. Cut out deadwood unproductive workers and programs.

Use the prison population for industrial labor-to pay for thoer incareration. I really don't feel like paying thieves and crack heads to sit around watching tv. Use the labor along with schooling to teach them useful skills-and only let employers use the system who will offer redeemed convicts jobs OUTSIDE of the system after they do thier time. That includes getting them set up in halfway houses where they can be monitored for recidivism as part of thoier parole. Do not send them back to the places where they did thier crimes.

No more borrowing. If you cannot pay your bills, then you do without.

Make political corruption a death penalty issue. Payola gets you a needle.

Full public disclosure. Websites track the voting records of evey house and senate measure-including all of the pork barrel amandments thay go after.

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 7:31:59 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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I said "practically."



Actually, what I really favor is a one child limit per person. Overpopulation is a bigger issue.


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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 9:06:49 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Hi,

I fit that term to a T, and have used it for years.

I believe in social freedom, or liberty.  Anyone should be free to do anything they want, so long as it doesn't infringe on the benefits of their fellow citizens.  Wanna dance naked on your head while being buggered by a dozen midgets?  Go for it.  Like peeing in a litterbox instead of the toilet?  Help yourself.  Wanna trim my hedges?  BZZZZZZZZZZZZ sorry, buddy, those are my hedges to maim how I like.  It means your liberty ends where mine starts, and vice versa.  I believe a good number of social engineering laws should be taken off the books, and ALL forms of tax breaks repealed; our current system of class warfare through taxation (tax rich people a ton...except for their million and one exemptions, tax the poor nothing...except their 19% social security taxes?  No go for me.)

But I'm fiscally conservative.  I believe in minimal taxes for EVERYONE.  Not just the rich, not just the poor.  Flat taxes are the way for me; everyone has to get the same sized wet bite of their ham sandwich taken by Uncle Sam, whether they bought it at a bistro for $80 or from a vendor on the street for $0.80.  And taxes should be low; bloated military, bloated social security, bloated federal programs, and Uncle Sam employing more people than any other entity on this continent.

Essentially, I'm normally branded a 'moderate' for this.  Republicans are traditionally (supposedly) fiscally conservatives, while Democrats are socially liberal.  I don't fit in either camp, because I don't believe in the government telling me who I can marry or why, nor do I think I should be paying for a government grant to fund the artificial insemination for the lesbian couple next door.  I'm anything but moderate in my views, but because I don't align with any traditional party I have to be lumped in the derisively snarled at "Independent" class.  Typically, I vote Republican slightly more often though; if for no other reason, than the current court system has traditionally supported more freedoms and works as a nice balance against congress.  This isn't to say I like the Status Quo; only that I find Republicans to be, generally, more focused on cutting taxes and programs than Democrats.  I'm finding that change in recent years, mind you, with Bush and his damned War.

That about sums it up.  Questions?


 
You expressed my views better than I could have myself.

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RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 11:12:48 AM   
Stephann


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ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

*laffing*  A few questions:
 
What social engineering laws would you think should come off the books? 

All of them.  It's not the government's business to determine right from wrong beyond the very limited scope of what I already mentioned (i.e. I'm free to do whatever I want, so long as I don't infringe on others in the process.)  This means most of the social no-no's stay on the books; murder, rape, drunk driving, etc.  There are situations that fall into a grey area; I believe gay couples should be allowed to adopt just as heterosexual couples, for example, but only if they are held to the same standards as heterosexual couples.  I believe I should be allowed to own guns, any type of guns (after all, it's a constitutional amendment) but not, say, large quantities of explosives.  I'm against most form of drug laws; if people wish to kill themselves in their own homes, that's their business.  In removing the nanny-state restrictions, people are free to make their lives as great or pathetic as they wish; I believe it is the death of the concept of personal responsibility that has caused the most damage to this country.

When you say social liberal, you seem to be referring to your freedoms as opposed to the "social liberalism" I usually hear about, which is "We need to take care of all these poor people (I don't mean financially poor when I use that word, but disadvantaged in some way, i.e. handicapped, gay, black, hispanic, illegal, etc.)  So please correct Me if I am misunderstanding.

No, that's about right.  A social liberal is one who believes in personal freedoms.  I've not heard the term social liberalism particularly, though I abhor the concept that other people should be empowered through a socialist model.  This is social engineering at it's worst; creation of religious, recreational, or educational activities that promote the agendas of government officials.  The worst thing you can do for any segment of the population is 'take care of them.'  It creates an entitlement system that hurts everybody; from the family who 'needs' ten years of welfare, to the society that doesn't benefit from the children of that family, since they grow up learning that they don't have to work since drugs and gambling are more profitable.

How do we strike the balance?  With your lower taxes, do you feel that the money can be re-appropriated to a more efficient and morally good use as opposed to what we have now? 

No question it can.  I strongly believe the same thing Bush pretends; that tax money belongs in the hands of the people who use it best; the taxpayers.  Instead of taking money from people who can least afford to spend it (remember, your Social Security taxes don't go towards a fund you'll make any real use of; it buys tanks, bombs, pays for corporate and agricultural subsidies, private jets for senators, etc etc) that money should remain in the pockets of the taxpayer.  The money we spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could have, literally, purchased both countries outright.  Or, it could have been spent on research and development of an alternate energy system.  Or it could have simply stayed in our pockets and allowed us to do what we want with our money. 

I don't argue that there should be no taxes; I'm arguing that we elect piss poor representatives who have a stake in the corporations that benefit from the misuse of those taxes.  By drastically reducing what the government currently does, it stands a much better job of doing the job it's supposed to do; namely, create laws, enforce laws, and maintain a defensive military.

Bloat!  A good word that I use often.

I am one of those oft maligned "independants" also.  But I too have had a tendency in the past to vote Repub due to the fiscal and more (to Me) logical approach.  I am no longer there, of course.  In full agreement with the out of control spending.  I have no major party candidate (that will end up with the nomination) that I can even come close to.

Me either.  I'm voting for Ron Paul anyway; not because he'll win, but because I hope my single vote carries whatever tiny message it can to say that I'm sick of paying for the vultures to get rich on our fat sweaty asses lying in the sun.

Stephan



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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

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(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 11:58:09 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I said "practically."



Actually, what I really favor is a one child limit per person. Overpopulation is a bigger issue.




See, I disagree here.  Skilled human labor is one of the greatest resources our economy has.  Each working, contributing adult is a walking, talking consumer.  He needs shoes, housing, medical care, education, recreational activities.  In exchange, he has the opportunity to contribute to the society he lives in, either as a productive worker, or a business owner.  Reducing the number of future humans doesn't mean those future humans will be better; only that they will simply be reduced in number.  Dropping demand for housing, in fact, is one of the quickest ways to trigger a recession, and reduced population results in a diminished tax base with which to cover our asses when the budget deficit comes due.  The bass ackwards manner in which we approach Social Security only adds gasoline to the fire.

Stephan

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Social Liberal but Fiscal Conservative? - 2/3/2008 12:11:46 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline
And yet, these labels really mean nothing. Bush was supposedly a fiscal conservative. Yet he's doubled the national debt, and put the US in hock to China for half a trillion.

Meanwhile, Bill Clinton, a supposed fiscal liberal, presided over one of the best economies we've had since WWII...

Of course, the GOP wonks love to say... "Oh, well, it's actually the administration that came before the one in power that should be thanked for an upturn in the economy."

Total bullshit, frankly. Even before "Junior" sleazed his way into the oval office, he was talking about an approaching recession. This caused nervousness on Wall Street trading, and became a self fulfilling prophecy. Now, thanks to his "ownership society" policies, (encouraging lenders to dole out the loans to people who couldn't handle them) we're in the sub prime housing mess we're in today. A mess that threatens, along with high gas prices, to drag us and the world into a finacial pit.


(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 20
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