UK skills shortage (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 3:56:34 AM)

Another interesting piece on This Week last night (BBC1 after QT)

Pete Waterman (yes, he of the manufactured pop) was on, talking about the skills shortage he's up against in one of his side businesses - a steam railway, and the wider skills shortage that UK businesses are struggling with; for instance the recent overrun of maintenance work on the main railways was down to there not being enough skilled workers to get it done on time.

Pete left school at 14 apparently, unable to read or write. But he had skills that were valuable and which allowed him to get on. He said that really he was no different then than a lot of the "hoodies" are today, but that the difference is that back then he didnt need a whole lot of certificates and so on to get a job which required skills, whereas nowadays one has to have bits of paper to certify that one knows one end of a spanner from the other, literally.

Pete argued that this was ridiculous. He has to recruit 100 skilled workers in the next 12 months, but he struggles because the very people for whom this work would be ideal, dont have the academic bent to be able to get the requisite certificates - yet they could do the job without any problem. He said that whilst these kids are deemed "unemployable" in the market, if you give them a car or a motorbike to fix, they can fix it - so obviously they have skills and the interest - for jobs which are now being "insourced" to qualified and experienced immigrants.

The verdict was that in the UK we place (and always have placed) far too much value on academic achievement, and belittled the skilled trades. To overcome this we have taken an academic approach of providing academic courses to get skills which puts off the very people for whom a skilled trade would be ideal. And even for those who take up these courses, the courses are not providing a viable skill at the end because theyre far too academically based with not enough actual experience. The result is that those who pass the courses are unable to compete for work with immigrants who have real qualifications and real experience in actually doing the job.

I totally agreed with the whole sentiment. The only problem, as Pete pointed out, is that to provide a proper apprenticeship costs around £80k - which few companies, let alone the one man bands and small companies who comprise the skilled trades sector, can afford.

E



RCdc -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 4:01:20 AM)

I watched that last night and I agreed with the senitment as well.  Like he said, stick a car or bike in a young personas hands, and they can fix it without even thinking about it.  Our boiler broke down before christmas -  it took over three weeks before we could get a plumber to even look at it, and another two before he had time to replace it.  Skilled trades are in demand, but there is no support for it.
 
the.dark.



Aneirin -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 4:29:53 AM)

I also saw the programme, or rather listened to it whilst I was on here. I also agree with what Mr Waterman said. I was one of those people who could repair 'anything' mechanical and a lot of electrical. I was always employed as a repair man, be it aircraft,construction, plant or household appliances and my last position cranes and other lifting equiptment including man riding lifting equiptment.

All of it, very much where public safety is paramount, any of it has the potential to kill if not repaired correctly.The hours were long and in all weathers and sometimes at any time including night time in the winter in the rain.

I do not do that anymore, I have quit.

Why?

The pay is lousy, I never even came close to the so called average wage.

The hours were too long and it was too physically demanding.

It was plain dangerous, conditions of work being unhealthy, fumes, dust, solvents, fuels and oil

And worst of all, no prospect of moving to a management position other than workshop manager, why, because though I was highly skilled, I lacked the academic qualifications necessary in modern industry.

Now I have said I have quit, I am now studying for a degree in applied art with a view to starting my own business as an artist metalsmith. Something I am doing wholly on my own, the training this that and the other, help, funding etc is purely not available for someone my age.

So, I am not surprised we have a skills shortage in this country, skilled and semi skilled people are seen as grunts and there entitled to a low standing and there pay and prospects.

I do think young people know this, true they also are good at repairing things and all have talents which could be put to good use, but they know their prospects and if academically challenged, they perhaps think

'why bother'




meatcleaver -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 5:19:46 AM)

I know plenty and have met plenty of British craftsmen and engineers while living in Europe and most are here because they couldn't get work back home. I started life as a mechanical technician (between a craftsman and a graduate) and left Britain because of lack of work. I went back to Britain and ended up working for the probation service because engineering companies said I was basically too old to learn new tricks. Then I said fuck it and came back over here and became a full time artist I always wanted to be. I often run into British craftsmen over here who are here because they were deemed too old in Britain.

I'm not surprised there is a lack of craftsmen in Britain. Both the Tories and Labour are to blame, the Tories destroyed much industry and Labour destroyed a lot of further education, saying old fashioned apprenticeships are not required for the future and shut most courses down. If there is a genuine shortage of skilled workers in Britain it is self inflicted but I bet there is also a lot of skilled over fifty year olds that companies refuse to employ and are now doing menial jobs.



KenDckey -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 5:36:56 AM)

Way to much importance is placed upon academic credentials in my opinion.   I do have a national certification.   My peers have Masters Degrees (for themost part) and I have a HS educaiton.   And even tho I had to pass the same testing requiremnts and prove way more experience, because I wasn't taught theory in college I am still not considered as credible in many circles.   Can I do the job?   Yes   

So what is more important.   The skill to do the job or the knowledge of the theory to do the job?



LadyEllen -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 5:43:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
So, I am not surprised we have a skills shortage in this country, skilled and semi skilled people are seen as grunts and there entitled to a low standing and there pay and prospects.

I do think young people know this, true they also are good at repairing things and all have talents which could be put to good use, but they know their prospects and if academically challenged, they perhaps think

'why bother'




Thats exactly it. But you know, when the car breaks down or the washing machine is pissing water all over the house, or the railway is closed - these "grunts" dont half suddenly become important people.

But its a cultural thing I think, to hold that those who keep everything running are somehow "the servant class"; the very existence of the term "tradesmens' entrance" (no giggling, I mean the original form) says it all. Not good enough to mix with their supposed betters and to be reminded of it at all times.

So much for our cool Britannia classless society. One in which someone with a degree in Klingon language and culture counts for more than someone who can wire a house.

It would be interesting to hear from MC on whether this is a cultural thing not found in other countries of Europe - I see he's posted and waiting approval.

Its all resolvable though - it has to be or we're in for trouble.

E 



Aneirin -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 5:58:43 AM)

So my plan is, my own forge for the black smithing, but I will continue to offer machinery repair services when time allows either way.

I am also skilled and hold the relevant certification for the P.A.T test, about a grand for a testing machine and then I will go for it. This can be lucrative in that as you know, all businesses and places where the public use have to have their portable electrical appliances tested every year.(you know, those little green labels on everything at work saying it has passed, what was it I used to charge, £5 an item).

But the workplace as it was, that I am finished with, I will line my own pockets in future.



LadyEllen -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 6:16:15 AM)

Aneirin - if you can work for yourself then you should; it sure as heck beats working for anyone else!

I keep telling one of my friends to retrain or redirect his skills. He's a proper Black Country trained mechanical engineer, started as an apprentice back in the days when such things were still available, then went to the army and became a gunsmith too.

When he came out of the army, the world had changed - it was 14 years he was in, from 1980 to the mid 90s. There were no jobs left for his skills, but there was still Quality Assurance work he could do, so he went into that, also in engineering. The nuts and bolts and bits were coming from overseas into the company he worked for then, but the UK still retained the quality checking and servicing and some assembly and installation work. He lost that job about a year ago - everything was stopped apart from the maintenance aspects; everything else was now done by the German supplier who had taken over the manufacturing a few years before.

Now he's working in aerospace, but he knows the writing is on the wall already. His job will be exported sometime in the next two years to somewhere else. Its ludicrous. His long term choices seem to be to go and work at Tesco or go on the dole - what a waste.

Now, I get the government policy that we need to be innovative and produce wealth for ourselves based on that - but if we dont have the people with the know how to innovate, how are we going to do that exactly? Because to innovate in the first place, one has to know the state of the art as it is and understand how the state of the art works. One cannot invent the cart, if one doesnt know what a wheel is. And having a theoretical knowledge based on academic study isnt enough either - yes, you can come up with ideas on that basis, but if you dont have a sound practical understanding its just theory.

E



RealityLicks -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 6:39:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

He has to recruit 100 skilled workers in the next 12 months, but he struggles because the very people for whom this work would be ideal, dont have the academic bent to be able to get the requisite certificates - yet they could do the job without any problem. He said that whilst these kids are deemed "unemployable" in the market, if you give them a car or a motorbike to fix, they can fix it - so obviously they have skills and the interest - for jobs which are now being "insourced" to qualified and experienced immigrants.

E


I don't understand, why can't he just hire whoever he considers competent and have their work checked by a suitably qualified supervisor? He doesn't have to insist on certificates if he believes in them, does he?

Just for example, someone like your ex-Army friend, can get certified (I think at present, costs are partly met by Gov't and partly by someone like Waterman) as an NVQ Examiner and certify the kids as they work and earn a living.

Am missing something? I honestly don't know!



LadyEllen -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 6:48:07 AM)

He didnt go into the ins and outs of it RL, but obviously it cant be that simple or he wouldnt have the problem? I wouldnt mind guessing it might have something to do with Regulations or the requirements of an insurance company or a combination of those two.

It would be interesting to know - did anyone who saw/heard it pick up on what the reason for his difficulty is?

E



Aneirin -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 7:02:31 AM)

The trouble is with NVQ, from my experience as far as an employer is concerned NVQ stands for Not Very Qualified, and employers do know NVQ's can be obtained solely by turning up for a course or job, rather than having to study, if you do not study, then you do not learn.

An NVQ to some is still regarded as a complimentary qualification, basically just something to give someone so they do not feel totally hopeless and is still for the semi skilled/skilled people.

I have some NVQ's, I forget how many and what they are about, as I see them as a worthless qualification to proffer in front of a prospective employer.

It used to be City and Guilds qualifications that were the worst, but now NVQ has taken that place.

Personally, I have a couple of OND's in both Aerospace engineering and Civil Engineering, but again though they be a better qualification, HND's are generally required as a minimum to be considered for senior management positions.

I have come across people who are so highly skilled, that they should be in a better position, but they lack what industry now demands and so despite their aged years, near retirement age, they are forced to work manually in much the same conditions as I worked in prior to me seeing the light so to speak and I know of one who died on the job, lifting a weight which stressed his heart leading to a heart attack and it was not an unmanageable weight, just too much for his years.

This apparent disregard for semi skilled and skilled people will be this country's undoing, things even this country invented and manufactured will become alien to us as to their repair.

And yes, having someone of the correct qualification indicates they have had the correct training for insurance purposes.



RealityLicks -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 7:25:25 AM)

Thanks Aneirin. Still, seems as if an employer has the discretion to adopt a relaxed position on qual's for an entry-level type job. I can fully see where for management jobs, they'd maybe insist on HNDs or BTECs but its crazy if they want everyone to have degrees.

I thought this was about those entry-level positions though... anyway, lots more schools start kids on BTECs now at about 15-16 (I think..?) and you can rise through the levels as you get your first job etc - at least, that's the plan but as has been made clear, that isn't working out.

BTW, I know someone who has had a really similar work trajectory to you who is also going out on his own and he's never looked back, so go for it.



seeksfemslave -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 7:55:36 AM)

Tho' many posting appear to think that its not too difficult to "fix" things as evidenced by the youths who "think" they can do it  IMO  the first statement is false and probably the second one is too.
A modern car engine for example is almost impossible to "get at" and not easy to know what is the problem when the engine warning light comes on.

The disdain for manufacture has been the UK's undoing and is at root obviously class based discrimination emphasised by the discriminatory education system that operates here.

I remain
cheerful as always ........seeks
grease monkey and general jack of all trades extraordinaire.
Just did a bit of plastering which is drying as I speak. Not brilliant but not bad.

Just to add an incontestable truth that I have posted before the majority of non technical academic achievers need taxpayer support to create/sustain their jobs.



Aneirin -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 8:02:28 AM)

Thankyou RL, your thought is appreciated.

The other problem of course with the up and coming 'hopefull ' workforce is attitude. Many who are in a position to employ feel youngsters do not want to work, as they are wrapped up in other activities which may bring an income, which of course could be benefits supplemented with whatever, or doting parents with deep pockets to keep them out of the way.Hey, even benefits are reasonably good if you live with mummy and there not have the pressures everyone else has.

Then there is the youth themselves, they see no point in slogging their guts out for a wage, which they know will not fit in with their wants.

This is a, ' I want it now' ,society, even industry itself is this way, quick profits and sod the future, no one is prepared to build for the future.

And then there is the toys, the electronics and gadgets, things that cost the earth, but it would seem everybody has got to have them whether they can afford them or not. The plethora of electronic this that and the other, the must haves, the youth want, a peanut wage as an apprentice or trainee is not going to get them what they want.

And so we remain as we are. Perhaps rid the stupidity of the must have at all costs idea, and maybe we will start moving in the right direction.

There is also a possibility that trainees could also run the risk of being laid off due to cost cutting exercises, they being as a trainee, not as useful as a skilled person would to me, be the first to go.I wonder if that is the case. If it is, then to be laid off would surely provide the negativity a young person needs for them not to bother.



Moloch -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 10:36:12 AM)

I know several self made millionares and 2 of them never finished highschool and never went to college.
There is a saying in Russia: "If you are so smart how come you are so poor"



popeye1250 -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 10:51:01 AM)

LadyE, whatever happened to "OJT?" On the job training?
Gee, now THERE's something that* really works* so let's get rid of it?
We have almost the opposite problem in the Federal government here in the U.S.
Over the last 30 years or so someone decided that to be a "paper shuffler" you need a "degree" of some sort!
Nevermind that all those jobs were done very well by *Secretaries* for decades.
Now, to fill out forms, and do Secretarial work you need B.A.s and Master's degrees!
I mean what changed? Are the forms now in Latin or something?
So now we have millions of overpaid, overqualified people doing secretarial work in the U.S. govt.
We could hire secretaties to replace all this deadwood at half what we're paying these payroll patriots!



Politesub53 -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 11:15:07 AM)

Lady E the recent problem with the railways wasnt so much that they didnt have enough manpower. More that the men that had agreed to work didnt turn up, i read a figure that it was half the specified workforce.

Self employment is partly the very reason we are in this situation. Back in the 70s and 80s firms tried to switch people into working as contractors, to reduce overheads. Many guys jumped at this because of the tax breaks and higher wages. Once a high percentage were self employed, they no longer had union bargaining power for a collective wage rise. Customs also changed the rules as to what you could and couldnt claim tax rebates for. Firms also stopped employing apprectices and decided if someone was needed to fetch and carry then it was cheaper to employ a labourer. One man firms cant afford to train youngsters, and even employing someone has been wrapped up in so much health and safety that its become farcical.




Feric -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 12:22:39 PM)

Very true, Lady Ellen. The problem is that to be taken seriously today, "credentials" are required rather than an actual demonstration that you can do the work. Part of this is due to the prevalence of unskilled workers in the workplac,e part is due to the bureaucrats controlling the workplace, and there are dozens of secondary causes as well.

One of the biggest problems, though, is the emphasis on college educations for most people, and the overriding emphasis on white-collar work; the idea that to be "in trade" is somehow dirty or bad. All work is noble, but very few people seem to embrace that idea. Denigrations seem to be applied to those who bake the bread, crush the wine, sweep the streets, or drive the lorries. Society as a whole needs to be reoriented so that those who do work--any work--need to be praised, not just those who make wear a necktie and push papers in a mega-corporation.



Politesub53 -> RE: UK skills shortage (2/1/2008 12:43:02 PM)

This has to be tackled in schools. If 25%  of school levers cant read or write properly, what chance do they have of passing any sort of training involving an exam.



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