quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because 1500 troops even with a few CIA B-26's could not hope to defeat the entire Cuban army. The CIA knew it that is why they faked the B-25 damage on Captain Zuniga's plane.

Furthermore Castro had had plenty of warning about the coming invasion, loose talk by cuban exiles in Miami, and had rounded up over a gundred thousand people suspected of having anti Castro leanings. With those people held under guard there weren't any Cubans to rise up in rebellion which the exiles and the CIA were counting on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

My premise assumes that in reality, the Bay of Pigs. . .was a failure, for which JFK should be blamed, not revered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because 1500 troops even with a few CIA B-26's could not hope to defeat the entire Cuban army. The CIA knew it that is why they faked the B-25 damage on Captain Zuniga's plane.

Furthermore Castro had had plenty of warning about the coming invasion, loose talk by cuban exiles in Miami, and had rounded up over a gundred thousand people suspected of having anti Castro leanings. With those people held under guard there weren't any Cubans to rise up in rebellion which the exiles and the CIA were counting on.

DomKen:
Your account of this event is a bit sketchy.  Here is a link that is well documented.  Perhaps you might want to peruse it at your leisure and reacquaint yourself with the particulars of this event.
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs.htm
If you would take the time to read it in its entirety you will,I hope, attain a fuller understanding of the scope of the perfidy involved.  I am not referring here to a breaking of faith with the insurgents whom we paid,trained and equipped but rather the subversion of the values of the United States of America and the lies told to us and the world by our president.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

My premise assumes that in reality, the Bay of Pigs (and subsequent 'isolation' of Cuba) was a failure, for which JFK should be blamed, not revered.


I have no idea what you believe the outcome was in fantasyland.

And wtf reveres JFK on this issue? Not sure why you`re whining.

The fantasy-land I refer to,is what the super patriots/cold warriors imagine,if JFK had given air support.

Even if JFK had done that,it still didn`t mean that that anti-Castro Cubans would have succeeded.

That success is only someone`s fantasy.

This whole anti-Cuba thing is a bunch of bullshit.

Btw,by attempting to assassinate Castro(multiple times),the US drove him right into the hands of the Soviets.

A monumental blunder.

quote:

The Eisenhower administration did most of the planning and recruiting. The CIA did not get people who could keep their mouths shut. Castro rounded up in excess of a hundred thousand people suspected of being sympathetic to the exiles in the last weeks of March and early April of 61 because he knew the invasion was coming. Without those people free to join the exile forces the land campaign could not hope to succeed without more aircraft than we had provided the exiles and more than 1500 troops.

Kennedy did order the moving of the landing site, because the planned site location had leaked and for the US to have any deniability in the operation that site could not be used. McGeorge Bundy ordered no more air strikes after the first sortie because UN ambassador Stevenson was confronted with proof that it was US aircraft and not cuban exile aircraft doing the bombing. Kennedy had approved the continued bombing and why Bundy's order took effect is not clear. This should have halted the invasion as the CIA plan called for the FAR to be completely wiped out before the landing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

My premise assumes that in reality, the Bay of Pigs (and subsequent 'isolation' of Cuba) was a failure, for which JFK should be blamed, not revered.


I have no idea what you believe the outcome was in fantasyland.

And wtf reveres JFK on this issue? Not sure why you`re whining.

The fantasy-land I refer to,is what the super patriots/cold warriors imagine,if JFK had given air support.

Even if JFK had done that,it still didn`t mean that that anti-Castro Cubans would have succeeded.

That success is only someone`s fantasy.

This whole anti-Cuba thing is a bunch of bullshit.

Btw,by attempting to assassinate Castro(multiple times),the US drove him right into the hands of the Soviets.

A monumental blunder.

Helluva tap dance (but not up to your usual blind zealot standards) to avoid admitting you were wrong when you agreed with DK that Kennedy did not 'hand Cuba to Castro on a silver platter'..... first by attempting a clearly doomed invasion against all competent advice, thereby leaving Castro an even bigger hero in the eyes of the Cuban people, and then with isolationist policies that drove Cuba right into the Soviet camp.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

He asked for our help and instead he got assignation attempts.

Had Kennedy set up an assignation between Fidel and Marylin instead of the CIA then perhaps the course of history might have been different.


That`s why he went against us.

Castro's commitment to socialism was well known before Kennedy came to office.  Please read the link I posted for a little background.


And it had to do more with sugar,fruit ,the ruling class and the mafia,then it did with freedom or right/left politics.

I should think it had more to do with Cuba being a sovereign nation and their revulsion with the Platt amendment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

The Eisenhower administration did most of the planning and recruiting. The CIA did not get people who could keep their mouths shut. Castro rounded up in excess of a hundred thousand people suspected of being sympathetic to the exiles in the last weeks of March and early April of 61 because he knew the invasion was coming. Without those people free to join the exile forces the land campaign could not hope to succeed without more aircraft than we had provided the exiles and more than 1500 troops.

Kennedy did order the moving of the landing site, because the planned site location had leaked and for the US to have any deniability in the operation that site could not be used. McGeorge Bundy ordered no more air strikes after the first sortie because UN ambassador Stevenson was confronted with proof that it was US aircraft and not cuban exile aircraft doing the bombing. Kennedy had approved the continued bombing and why Bundy's order took effect is not clear. This should have halted the invasion as the CIA plan called for the FAR to be completely wiped out before the landing.

And knowing all of this, against good advice, Kennedy ordered his obviously guaranteed to fail version to go ahead.

Spin it all you like, Kennedy handed Cuba to Castro on a silver platter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

To Thompsonx you may not realize this but I do have work to do between these little moments I spend on here and do not have time to read web sites on material I already know and have top references within reach. I repeat what lies are you accusing Kennedy of?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Wow just wow.

You're absolutely unable or unwilling to say which statements you claim Kennedy lied in but want me to read a website that is a rehash of material I've already studied? Sorry bud big colored fonts do not make you right and do not alleviate the need to actually make specific claims that others can research. In this case unless this website says "this is when he subverted the values of the US" and "This is where he lied to the world and to the american people" how am I supposed to know what you're refering to? Give me the specifics so I can look it up in the actual historical record.

quote:

So really it was the Eisenhower administration who hatched a plot certain to give Cuba to Castro.

Why didn't Kennedy cancel the operation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Wow just wow.

You're absolutely unable or unwilling to say which statements you claim Kennedy lied in but want me to read a website that is a rehash of material I've already studied? Sorry bud big colored fonts do not make you right and do not alleviate the need to actually make specific claims that others can research. In this case unless this website says "this is when he subverted the values of the US" and "This is where he lied to the world and to the american people" how am I supposed to know what you're refering to? Give me the specifics so I can look it up in the actual historical record.

DomKen:
That is what I have been trying so unsuccessfully to tell you.
The link I posted states exactly where he lied and to whom and gives validation for its statements.
How is it that you have time to tell me you have no time to read what you disagree with but you do not have time to read what you disagree with?
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Wow just wow.

You're absolutely unable or unwilling to say which statements you claim Kennedy lied in but want me to read a website that is a rehash of material I've already studied? Sorry bud big colored fonts do not make you right and do not alleviate the need to actually make specific claims that others can research. In this case unless this website says "this is when he subverted the values of the US" and "This is where he lied to the world and to the american people" how am I supposed to know what you're refering to? Give me the specifics so I can look it up in the actual historical record.

DomKen:
That is what I have been trying so unsuccessfully to tell you.
The link I posted states exactly where he lied and to whom and gives validation for its statements.
How is it that you have time to tell me you have no time to read what you disagree with but you do not have time to read what you disagree with?
thompson

Just searched every page of your link. The wors lie, lies or lied occurs exactly once in the document in the introduction while discussing american views of communism not anything to do with kennedy. I then read the entire aftermath and victory and defeat pages which should have covered the dates when we know Kennedy told lies about US involvement in the operation. While Kennedy made several such statements the web page mentions only the one to the newspaper editors.on April 20th. All other statements were in the same time frame. Which was well before it became clear the covert operation could not remain covert. Are you actually condemning Kennedy for telling lies to protect a covert operation?  

quote:

the subversion of the values of the United States of America and the lies told to us and the world by our president.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. I'm telling you that Kennedy telling lies about US involvement in the Bay of Pigs was to be expected and to not condemn him for doing the right thing, if only Rove et al had had the same reserve about discussing covert operations and personnel.

Now as to violating treaties and subverting a sovereign nation, Kennedy isn't innocent but it sure looked like here:

quote:

the subversion of the values of the United States of America and the lies told to us and the world by our president.

you were talking about stuff new to Kennedy. Do you condemn Eisenhower? The CIA actually did replace a government during his presidency. What about all the earlier presidents who authorized occupations under the auspices of the Monroe Doctrine? It's awfully hard to claim Kennedy subverted american values when he comes at the tail end of a long line of presidents who did the same as you blame him for. Or is this a little partisan dig hoping I wouldn't know history?

quote:


If you would take the time to read it in its entirety you will,I hope, attain a fuller understanding of the scope of the perfidy involved.  I am not referring here to a breaking of faith with the insurgents whom we paid,trained and equipped but rather the subversion of the values of the United States of America and the lies told to us and the world by our president.