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morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 6:43:51 PM   
fluffyswitch


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okay so i'm presenting this paper on bondage porn and the social acceptance of sexual minorities in march (essentially the paper is about how commodified images of sexual minorities can and will impact the acceptance of those minorities,especially if it's such a closeted/ignored sexuality that those images are the only ones being seen by mainstream society). anyway i'm reading this article that is articulating the position (which i agree with) that no sexual act is in and of itself immoral--that certain sex acts are immoral because society says that they are which is why some acts are okay in some sub cultures but not in others.

my question is (simply because i'm bored and happen to have writers block) why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?


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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 6:53:32 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

my question is (simply because i'm bored and happen to have writers block) why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?



Are you cleverly asking us to help you write your article  ?

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 6:55:12 PM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

my question is (simply because i'm bored and happen to have writers block) why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?



Are you cleverly asking us to help you write your article  ?

not really lol. i just like discussing things and i know what i want to write i'm just sitting here trying to figure out how to say it. besides i couldn't use it anyway. stupid IRB and the ethics rules lol.


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“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 6:57:07 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

okay so i'm presenting this paper on bondage porn and the social acceptance of sexual minorities in march (essentially the paper is about how commodified images of sexual minorities can and will impact the acceptance of those minorities,especially if it's such a closeted/ignored sexuality that those images are the only ones being seen by mainstream society). anyway i'm reading this article that is articulating the position (which i agree with) that no sexual act is in and of itself immoral--that certain sex acts are immoral because society says that they are which is why some acts are okay in some sub cultures but not in others.

my question is (simply because i'm bored and happen to have writers block) why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?



I apologize...but I can't read.

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:01:43 PM   
MrKite


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Wow, thats a loaded question.  
I used to be the IT manager in a company. There was a man there that professed the immorality of Clintons behaivor and homosexuality almost everyday, and he did so very loudly.  He also declared himself a christian conservative. One day while I was working on the server and monitoring useage I noticed that there were a number of hits for a gay web site.  Not just any gay web site but one catering to quick and annoymous meetings.  Naturally I investigated further and found that the user was this particular man.  Not only was he using that web site, he was actually arranging meetings with strange men to use the glory hole in his barn.   Everybody was also joking about his afternoon breaks to run out and get coffee, but I was the only one that knew what was going on. 
This is not the first time I've seen something like this and many have agreed with me that some anti gay people do protest too much.  I think the better question is how can someone use religous teachings and morals contrary to thier sexual nature.  Is it less moral to lie than to be an in the closet gay? 
To answer your question directly.  I think some people need a cover story and the church is a place to hide.

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:05:41 PM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

Is it less moral to lie than to be an in the closet gay? 



now there's an interesting question. why are *some* people fully comfortable with someone falsifying their sexuality but not with them being honest about it?


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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:06:28 PM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?


One reason (among many, having done way too much reading on how morality develops) is the ability to empathize with other people.  If we picture ourselves doing something vicariously thru someone else, and it is an act that we would not considering actually doing ourselves, we tend to decide that it is immoral... the degree of that immorality a correlation to how far outside of our accepted norm that particular act happens to be.

Cali


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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:08:23 PM   
Stephann


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We tend to fear activities and people that we do not understand.  Often, this has a lot to do with making the leap from natural curiosity (associated with innocence) to becoming jaded and hurt.  Someone who has never seen fire before, isn't likely to be afraid of it when they see it until they've been burned.  Then they're likely to become afraid of things that look like fire, unless they learn how better to control fire.  One could say the same thing about power lines, too.

Obviously, certain activities carry an inherent harm to society and thus are considered immoral and are illegal (people underage, those who dont' consent, etc.)  In these cases, it's not so much a question of if the activity is deviant, sexually, but rather because it can damage the framework that allows other people to have happy, healthy lives.

Stephan



, and people who do things we don't 

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:11:37 PM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Obviously, certain activities carry an inherent harm to society and thus are considered immoral and are illegal (people underage, those who dont' consent, etc.)  In these cases, it's not so much a question of if the activity is deviant, sexually, but rather because it can damage the framework that allows other people to have happy, healthy lives.

Stephan



, and people who do things we don't 




while i agree with you personally, there are theorists that argue that that's not a good enough answer, because there are societies where those activities are fully acceptable. and if it were a matter of social stability then it shouldn't be acceptable in any developed society, since it would damage its structure. and further, to take age of consent just as an example--if an immigrant moves from a country where age of consent is much lower, do they automatically become immoral if they try to maintain the norms they are most familiar with?


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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:13:13 PM   
PrizedPosession


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In one of my parent's case they felt they had to hide it because the other one was a conservative and would use their new found sexuality against them, but this summer they came out (even though everyone suspected it and my little sisters homophobia scared them from coming out to the two of us). But now they are happier than before because it is out there and they don't feel like like a weight is on their shoulder anymore.

i think it can come to the upbringing or maybe a past incident that makes them hide it. Yet again that is only for some and obviously not all people hide it for that reason. But maybe they themselves feel uncomfortable with themselves for any reason under the sun.

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:49:34 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

Wow, thats a loaded question.  
I used to be the IT manager in a company. There was a man there that professed the immorality of Clintons behaivor and homosexuality almost everyday, and he did so very loudly.  He also declared himself a christian conservative. One day while I was working on the server and monitoring useage I noticed that there were a number of hits for a gay web site.  Not just any gay web site but one catering to quick and annoymous meetings.  Naturally I investigated further and found that the user was this particular man.  Not only was he using that web site, he was actually arranging meetings with strange men to use the glory hole in his barn.   Everybody was also joking about his afternoon breaks to run out and get coffee, but I was the only one that knew what was going on. 
This is not the first time I've seen something like this and many have agreed with me that some anti gay people do protest too much.  I think the better question is how can someone use religous teachings and morals contrary to thier sexual nature.  Is it less moral to lie than to be an in the closet gay? 
To answer your question directly.  I think some people need a cover story and the church is a place to hide.

MrKite, this is much more than people needing a cover and hiding behind the church. The church is the problem. I understand where your co-worker is coming from. I posted this on another thread so I'll cross-post here for those who didn't read it the first time (and so I don't have to repeat it, and fluffyswitch, I promise you won't be able to use any of it in your paper):
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1548242
Although when I wrote it the intent was slightly tongue-in-cheek, I swear that every word of it is true. For some people, especially fundamentalists, the teachings of the church when it comes to sexual morality is very powerful and tantamount to brainwashing. I don't ridicule people like this when they appear to be hypocritical. I feel bad for them and can empathize with just how tortured they must really be inside. It's not about hiding behind the church, being bigoted, or fearful of change. It's about truly believing with all your soul that your behavior is sinful and displeasing to God and you face eternal damnation. The guilt and shame these people live with every day is what drives bigotry and intolerance. This type of religious brainwashing is to me, the root of all evil.

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:52:10 PM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

(and so I don't have to repeat it, and fluffyswitch, I promise you won't be able to use any of it in your paper):



don't worry. that's not an issue. to use anything i need to go in front of the internal review board and go through a three month process before they're happy and then i have to type up my questions and an intent form and an online privacy form and sigh...lol. besides it's a conflict of interest since i've been active on these boards.

oh and i forgot...my paper's on social acceptance and not morality anyway...i just read this in an article (again) and it intrigued me.


< Message edited by fluffyswitch -- 1/27/2008 7:54:43 PM >


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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:54:52 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

(and so I don't have to repeat it, and fluffyswitch, I promise you won't be able to use any of it in your paper):



don't worry. that's not an issue. to use anything i need to go in front of the internal review board and go through a three month process before they're happy and then i have to type up my questions and an intent form and an online privacy form and sigh...lol. besides it's a conflict of interest since i've been active on these boards.


No, I meant it's far too crass and vulgar for you to repeat. Otherwise, I would say knock yourself out.

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 7:56:46 PM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

(and so I don't have to repeat it, and fluffyswitch, I promise you won't be able to use any of it in your paper):



don't worry. that's not an issue. to use anything i need to go in front of the internal review board and go through a three month process before they're happy and then i have to type up my questions and an intent form and an online privacy form and sigh...lol. besides it's a conflict of interest since i've been active on these boards.


No, I meant it's far too crass and vulgar for you to repeat. Otherwise, I would say knock yourself out.


oh okay lol. you;d be surprised. one of the articles i'm using as a three paragraph discussion of fistf*cking, using that term. academnia's a strange place lol.


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“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/27/2008 11:13:56 PM   
Stephann


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ORIGINAL: fluffyswitchz

while i agree with you personally, there are theorists that argue that that's not a good enough answer, because there are societies where those activities are fully acceptable. and if it were a matter of social stability then it shouldn't be acceptable in any developed society, since it would damage its structure. and further, to take age of consent just as an example--if an immigrant moves from a country where age of consent is much lower, do they automatically become immoral if they try to maintain the norms they are most familiar with?

Good question,

Are they immoral people?  No.  This doesn't relieve them of responsibility for violating the norms of their adopted society, though.

Different societies have different needs and expectations; a society where war, hunger, or environmental conditions mean the average life expectancy of humans to be 28 would, obviously, require a much lower age of majority than a society where expectancy stretches to over 80 years old and no other necessity for early reproduction.  Thus I believe that it truly is a question of different needs for different societies.  Still, most societies tend to share similar basic expectations (i.e. don't murder, don't rape, don't cannibilize, etc.)

In any society, it is those who seek to join's responsibility to adapt and integrate if they wish to enjoy the full privileges of their newly adopted home.  When in Rome....

Stephan



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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/28/2008 12:14:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

okay so i'm presenting this paper on bondage porn and the social acceptance of sexual minorities in march (essentially the paper is about how commodified images of sexual minorities can and will impact the acceptance of those minorities,especially if it's such a closeted/ignored sexuality that those images are the only ones being seen by mainstream society). anyway i'm reading this article that is articulating the position (which i agree with) that no sexual act is in and of itself immoral--that certain sex acts are immoral because society says that they are which is why some acts are okay in some sub cultures but not in others.

my question is (simply because i'm bored and happen to have writers block) why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?



The west's puritanical moral hypocrisy and guilt over sex comes directly from the bible. The difficulty the early church had in imposing their moral vision is well recorded. These morals were both intepreted from the bible and invented by the church as a way of imposing its political will over the population. It is noticeable that societies that converted much later to christianity than others, namely Scandinavia, have much less guilt associated with sex than societies that converted earlier. The suppression of women was also imported into northern Europe by the church. Most information has been lost, mainly through cultural vandalism by the church but it is well recorded that in Germanic and Celtic tribes of northern Europe women had their own property rights and kept them through marriage and should they divorce, could walk away with what was theirs. Women also fought. This suggests that whatever the sexual culture was, there was some sort of equality between men and women. But one just has to look at art, sexual iconography started to disappear from view after conversion to Christianity. Why particular acts were banned could well be arbitary as much as anything else, a disgust for the material world, which many early christians had.

Homosexuality in the west has a later origin. In Elizabethan England there wasn't a word for it so it wasn't an issue and same sex sex was apparently not uncommon. In fact some scholars claim many of Shakespeare's sonnets are written for a male lover. A lot changes with the reformation though there was plenty of pornography and rampant sex going on after the Restoration. The problem with studying this is that most recorded history is about elites where making sure a first born son really is the son of his father which is another reason restrictions were imposed on women. There is some evidence but much is circumstantial evidence, that people who didn't have property didn't worry about such things and had far more laxed morals because there was no wealth tied up in a liason. In fact the 18th, early 19th century was one of debauchery. Pornography and sex were used as a way of mocking and undermining the French monarchy.  At the end of the day, the church has been the moral arbiter of sexual morality though they rarely practiced what they preached which is why the reformation happened. In the ruins of a monastary near where I grew up, skeletons of babies were found buried. These were believed to be the offspring of the monks.

Why particular acts were banned or frowned on, you'd probably find it all in the bible.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/28/2008 12:17:02 AM >


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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/28/2008 5:31:12 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

okay so i'm presenting this paper on bondage porn and the social acceptance of sexual minorities in march (essentially the paper is about how commodified images of sexual minorities can and will impact the acceptance of those minorities,especially if it's such a closeted/ignored sexuality that those images are the only ones being seen by mainstream society). anyway i'm reading this article that is articulating the position (which i agree with) that no sexual act is in and of itself immoral--that certain sex acts are immoral because society says that they are which is why some acts are okay in some sub cultures but not in others.

my question is (simply because i'm bored and happen to have writers block) why do YOU think that some acts are perfectly acceptable to some but not to others?



I'm assuming youre talking about our cultural and sociological time and place? Because to start getting into historical and cross cultural areas is going to get very complicated! Well, perhaps historical areas within the context of our culture might be useful?

Certainly in the Christian past, all that we get up to now was occurring - and all of it was frowned upon wherever it deviated from acts of heterosexual sex between married couples conducted with the aim of procreating children to the greater glory of God. A clear social context, derived from an enforced religious perspective, whereby sexuality and morality were clearly defined. And the penalties - both in terms of being ostracised socially and punished criminally for any deviation are there to be researched.

Prior to Christianity there is little information available, but it would seem that sexuality and in particular female sexuality was subject to far less stringent limitations of social acceptability. For instance, there are records remaining which indicate that homosexuality and transgender behaviours were known (resulting in "ergi" a sort of disgrace in Viking culture), records which indicate that the worship of the Goddess had at least some elements which are found in modern Femdom, records which show that a far more earthy attitude was taken towards sexuality and clear indications that priests of the Goddess were required to join the ranks of what must have been a respectable form of transgenderism by way of auto castration and thereafter living as women. Sadly however, the Church saw to it in its misogyny that as much as possible of female sexuality was curtailed and as many records of it as possible were destroyed. Again though, within our own original culture, social norms determined the view on sexuality and morality.

Our more modern culture though is one which I would say is based on the rights of the individual than any religious perspective. I would venture to say that this movement began long before today in the move towards the end of slavery - a system within which the owned were regularly subject to whatever whim of the owner, including the satisfaction of the owner's sexuality despite the otherwise strict Christian context in which he lived, or perhaps because of it, and despite the owner's justification of his ownership and acts in that the owned were not seen as human and yet not as an animal either.

So, as a 21st century westerner, its my view that the measure of acceptability of a form of sexuality is entirely down to the rights and abilities of individuals to make an informed decision according to their own morals and interests and then to give or withhold consent accordingly. And by individuals I would also include animals, who like children and unwitting or perhaps even intended witnesses have no opportunity to make an informed decision or give or withhold consent. So, I guess anything goes as long as those involved know what theyre doing and agree to take part.

At the same time though we also live within another cultural framework - that of the law. Given that it is derived for the most part from Christian ideals it has some very outdated limitations, but given that it is also more and more affected by our more modern attitudes towards the rights of individuals and the protection of those rights it yet limits us in the modern context. Whether one hits someone in a bar or with their consent whips them, an assault has been committed in law - and very many if not all bdsm activities are illegal in law because to protect us we have enacted laws which prevent the ability to consent to an offence or to solicit an offence.

Now if we were to follow the law, it would render bdsm impossible, yet the interest and drive to engage in it is such that it will be conducted regardless. So it has come to be, and rightly in my opinion that it is governed by a strong regard for safety and sanity - no permanent injury being intended whatever is done. This is a crucial difference between the abuse which the law is intended to limit and the fun and games we get up to - yet the law sees no difference, and this principle is one which we have ourselves developed to govern our sexuality within the context of our culture. We are having regard for the intention of the law, not the letter.

As for wider society, and your initial question - of course, the wider society by its own lack of interest and its fear of transgressing what remains of the former Christian social norms, will know little or nothing of what we get up to, and by those two factors will know only so much as it comes across by accident or incident. If what it comes across is the sort of commodified images of bdsm used for marketing and for sensationalist reporting, then this will be a very strong influence indeed - perhaps the only influence it has, in forming its view on us and thus the acceptability of bdsm in whole or part.

E

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/28/2008 6:55:57 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Fluffyswitch
..anyway i'm reading this article that is articulating the position (which i agree with) that no sexual act is in and of itself immoral--that certain sex acts are immoral because society says that they are which is why some acts are okay in some sub cultures but not in others.


Since morality is a human construct, that behaviour which is considered to be immoral is immoral to those that consider it so.
Why the variance, because human beings are complicated and make different value judgements about similar things.
I do not believe that all sexual behaviour is free of immorality. Thus underhand promiscuity in a "trusting" relationship is immoral IMO or carrying a disease knowing it and still being sexually active.

Dont forget also that a specific sexual activity that causes outrage today has been acceptable in the past.Even to name it is probably forbidden.

I would say that Sadism is probably immoral especially when inflicting serious suffering on unwilling victims. Torturers come to mind. After all a real Sadist wont derive much pleasure from a compliant Masochist.

No sexual act being immoral is a silly position which IMO could only be put in a secular society that believes itself quite mistakenly to be rational.
Ancient religious philosophers were well aware of the damage that unbridled human emotion can do.
We have ignored the wisdoms of the past and are now experiencing the consequences. For example what arrangement best suits the bringing up children ? or lets not pass judgment on anyone , excuses can always be found for the most horrendous behaviour, especially by mental health so called professionals.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/28/2008 7:36:22 AM >

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/28/2008 6:57:39 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

Wow, thats a loaded question.  
I used to be the IT manager in a company. There was a man there that professed the immorality of Clintons behaivor and homosexuality almost everyday, and he did so very loudly.  He also declared himself a christian conservative. One day while I was working on the server and monitoring useage I noticed that there were a number of hits for a gay web site.  Not just any gay web site but one catering to quick and annoymous meetings.  Naturally I investigated further and found that the user was this particular man.  Not only was he using that web site, he was actually arranging meetings with strange men to use the glory hole in his barn.   Everybody was also joking about his afternoon breaks to run out and get coffee, but I was the only one that knew what was going on. 
This is not the first time I've seen something like this and many have agreed with me that some anti gay people do protest too much.  I think the better question is how can someone use religous teachings and morals contrary to thier sexual nature.  Is it less moral to lie than to be an in the closet gay? 
To answer your question directly.  I think some people need a cover story and the church is a place to hide.


This is quite commen.  It is hard to know what came 1st the chicken or the egg.  I find that people at peace with them self or who figure each to their own- has no opinion one way or the other- to be quite comfortable wth their own self.
Most people dont get too involved in others lives unless it effects them. 

On the one hand there is a time and place for ?gay discussion.  -this type of hypicrate is phoney and in a way that jeopadizes others... it is not fair to self- the tricks- or his lady. often said doesnt get STD tested.

tho- my brother- he can tell me about his heterosexual. smutty details- if i mention any details per my thing- it quickly gets shot down. at the same time when I see flamers and he is there- i get so embarrassed- be who you are- but in public try not to overdo it.  it invited unwelcomed attention.

my sister on the otehr hand enjoys my war stories..... she ends up laughing ....  she is so busy with famil work and school that she is mentally gone another year.

like most things in life it is about balance.  try not to do things that shortchange others.  if it is an hopnest mistake thats fine..people are human.

in general- i see no good in being bitter in life.  thats harder to do when one hits 40.

< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 1/28/2008 7:00:11 AM >

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RE: morality and sexuality - 1/28/2008 7:51:49 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

anyway i'm reading this article that is articulating the position (which i agree with) that no sexual act is in and of itself immoral--that certain sex acts are immoral because society says that they are


What definiton of moral/immoral are you using?  Last I checked it was based on societal acceptance or lack thereof.

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