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South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 1:30:18 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Very interesting programme on Channel 4 (UK) this evening, regarding the lowest caste in Indian society - those previously known as "untouchables".

Now the Indian government long since passed legislation forbidding discrimination against this group in all aspects of life - the problem though is that those charged with enforcing these laws are from the castes above and the laws dont get enforced. If an "untouchable" does make a complaint, he/she or his/her whole family is subject to a good beating to deter them taking it any further. They are treated worse than animals, and told so to their face that this is how they are regarded, even their little children at school by the teachers, of all people - teachers again, who are drawn from the higher castes. 16% of government and municipal employment is reserved for them - yet they are allocated the lowest, most menial, poorly paid work which is unacceptable to higher castes - clearing out human excrement from toilets (not the flushing kind) and sewers for instance - by hand. Even though this practice of manual removal is outlawed, it is a common employment for "untouchables" - when the local administration was questioned over it - after a man died doing the job down a blocked sewer, it denied that any such form of employment or work existed. Meanwhile, "untouchables" are forcibly segregated from the higher castes in terms of where they may live - a beating awaits them if they stray into the wrong part of town (unless theyre cleaning toilets by hand, of course); as active a form of apartheid as any that has existed based on a person's origins.

Now India of course is a booming economy - made so to no small extent by all the outsourcing we in the west have made there; particularly our financial institutions but all manner of industries have chosen to relocate employment to India where salaries are much cheaper. The "untouchables" of course see none of this wealth, held down by those higher up the caste system.

The question then, is should we not enforce the same sort of embargo on Indian products and services and indeed on western companies who outsource from there, as we formerly did against South Africa in the days of their apartheid, until this dreadful and unjust situation is rectified?

Or do we take the approach that this is a "cultural difference" we must respect for fear of being thought racist?

E

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 1:37:33 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Of course we should take action but of course we won't. How long has the west studiously avoided noticing the treatment of the Ainu people and burakumin, eta, caste in Japan?

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 1:39:02 PM   
CrimsonMoan


Posts: 2652
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Portland, Me via Las Vegas Nv
Status: offline 		Its not just limited to India unfortunately. The other day a man was charged with 3-4 counts of murder because he set fire the apt of his daughter her husband and their children. The son in law was from a lower caste. Now mind you the father's family is saying that this was not the motivating factor. The father said he'd had an argument with the son in law and in a fit of anger spread gasoline around and set the fire while they were awake.

However none of the family got out like the others in the complex did. It was determined they were likely all asleep when the fire started and thus unable to escape. Now unlike SA its not as 'black and white' as one race over another instead of being inner turmoil of the Hindis. This is somewhat simliar to people's veiw or muslim women and burkas. We're dealing with many centuries worth of tradition and that is not somethign easily shaken


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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:02:21 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		LadyE, how would that be "racist?"
I have a solution, how's about they switch the "untouchable" ranking around every few years so that the upper and middle castes have to take a turn at being "untouchable?"
Now that would be fun!
You could have American tourists like me going to India and treating the formerly wealthy castes who are now "untouchables" like shit.
"Shine my shoes by hand you filthy bastard!"
"Here, pick the dingleberrys out of my ass you fuckin' wretch!"
"Lick that toe-jam out "Mr. Brahman!"
Then they could have public garbage troughs for them to eat out of with no forks and knives!
You know, mix it up, have some fun with it!

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:30:58 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I believe a poster named seeksfemsomething or other has posted many times of the murderous vicious oppressive prejudice existing between the different religious groups and caste strata of Indian society. He/she has  never given much detail but pointed out that the problem exists
Murder one another they do, and often. Treat lower castes and poor people abominably to the point that one of the main railway stations, Calcutta I think, is literally a human cesspit.

Of course UK PC liberals never  mention these facts when explaining how lacking are race relations in the UK.

In other words we are dealing with a universal problem, something old seekswotisname has mentioned before, but just as some animals are more equal than others so some societies are treated  more equally than others .
In this case India is more equal than the UK. Who could believe that ?

It follows that we should apply efforts to solving the problems present in the less equal of the two societies first. NO?  Giving special weight and notice to  opinion from the immigrant population from the more equal society. Note these people are hopelessly divided amongst themselves but best not to mention that minor detail.
Though in fact it will prove impossible to solve the problems many will be lucratively employed  and feel especially good about themselves in so trying and whats even better enthusiastically endorse policies designed to make the less equal society more culturally diverse so that it may more closely approximate the more equal society.
Am I right.?
I think I will mail seekswho isit and see what she thinks.

adding:I'm shocked seeksknowitall has just mailed me and said I am too ferkin' clever for my own good.
What does she know? She's a bitch

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/25/2008 2:40:24 PM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:36:37 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Seeks, just because India is bad doesn't mean that the UK may not have problems with race relations, from my visits it is clear it does although not as bad as the US. It would be possible for bigots like you to reform and improve the situation in the UK just as easily as it would be for the bigots in India to change their thinking. Although since there are likely fewer bigots in the UK that might be an easier place to start. Have you considered playing in traffic?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:42:30 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LadyE, how would that be "racist?"


Put it this way Popeye. We had a report on another Channel 4 documentary/news show tonight about female genital mutilation - female circumcision as some describe it, something common in African cultures and brought to the UK by African immigrants, particularly Somalis.

This is outlawed in the UK - yet its going on all the time. Child protection services, the police et al do nothing about it - and this is from the African woman running a specialist charity dealing with the aftermath and prevention - because they feel that to do so would be construed as racist for meddling with "cultural differences". In her words, "the UK is far too sensitive about these things".

The way its all organised - and remember I see the crime figures for this area in relation to "hate crime" including race based incidents and how they are followed up, the UK seems to regard only white people intervening or commenting on other ethnicities as racist - thus for us to criticise apartheid in South Africa is fine because being white, the oppressors can be described as racist, but for us to criticise a similar (indeed, worse) regime in India would be wrong and merely evidence of our racism.

E

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:49:27 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Seeks, just because India is bad doesn't mean that the UK may not have problems with race relations, from my visits it is clear it does although not as bad as the US. It would be possible for bigots like you to reform and improve the situation in the UK just as easily as it would be for the bigots in India to change their thinking. Although since there are likely fewer bigots in the UK that might be an easier place to start. Have you considered playing in traffic?


Yes we have our problems - though some will deny it no doubt. But its not oneway traffic and most importantly we do not have any official or customary regime of treating anyone like shit because of their origins. Even gypsies - regarded as a proper PITA (pain in the arse) are nowadays only treated adversely when they do make a pain in the arse of themselves.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:54:46 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

LadyE
....the UK seems to regard only white people intervening or commenting on other ethnicities as racist - thus for us to criticise apartheid in South Africa is fine because being white, the oppressors can be described as racist, but for us to criticise a similar (indeed, worse) regime in India would be wrong and merely evidence of our racism


DomKen seems to think that way too. he he he he he he.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 2:59:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

LadyE
....the UK seems to regard only white people intervening or commenting on other ethnicities as racist - thus for us to criticise apartheid in South Africa is fine because being white, the oppressors can be described as racist, but for us to criticise a similar (indeed, worse) regime in India would be wrong and merely evidence of our racism


DomKen seems to think that way too. he he he he he he.

Where did I say anything like that? If you don't agree with someone that is fine but what makes you feel entitled to tell lies about others?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:01:21 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Fair enough point Ken - though you did suggest Seeks should go play in traffic, which was a bit naughty!

E

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:14:23 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

LadyE
.... but for us to criticise a similar (indeed, worse) regime in India would be wrong and merely evidence of our racism

quote:

Seeks
DomKen seem to think that way too

quote:

DomKen
Where did I say anything like that? If you don't agree with someone that is fine but what makes you feel entitled to tell lies about others?

quote:

Seeks
Referring to me after I had criticised India.
DomKen said It would be possible for bigots like you  


This post is too convoluted but it shows clearly that DomKen doesnt seem to understand what he is actully saying lol 
Cleaned it up a bit with my magic fingers.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/25/2008 3:59:51 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:20:54 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LadyE, how would that be "racist?"


Put it this way Popeye. We had a report on another Channel 4 documentary/news show tonight about female genital mutilation - female circumcision as some describe it, something common in African cultures and brought to the UK by African immigrants, particularly Somalis.

This is outlawed in the UK - yet its going on all the time. Child protection services, the police et al do nothing about it - and this is from the African woman running a specialist charity dealing with the aftermath and prevention - because they feel that to do so would be construed as racist for meddling with "cultural differences". In her words, "the UK is far too sensitive about these things".

The way its all organised - and remember I see the crime figures for this area in relation to "hate crime" including race based incidents and how they are followed up, the UK seems to regard only white people intervening or commenting on other ethnicities as racist - thus for us to criticise apartheid in South Africa is fine because being white, the oppressors can be described as racist, but for us to criticise a similar (indeed, worse) regime in India would be wrong and merely evidence of our racism.

E


LadyE, it would? So who cares? That's an easy one, send them back if they do that kind of shit.
And you guys need to have a little "chat" with your MOP's there and tell them to knock off the bullshit.
And WTF are you doing letting in people from Somalia? They're fuckin savages!

_____________________________

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:25:36 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I believe a poster named seeksfemsomething or other has posted many times of the murderous vicious oppressive prejudice existing between the different religious groups and caste strata of Indian society. He/she has  never given much detail but pointed out that the problem exists
Murder one another they do, and often. Treat lower castes and poor people abominably to the point that one of the main railway stations, Calcutta I think, is literally a human cesspit.

Of course UK PC liberals never  mention these facts when explaining how lacking are race relations in the UK.

In other words we are dealing with a universal problem, something old seekswotisname has mentioned before, but just as some animals are more equal than others so some societies are treated  more equally than others .
In this case India is more equal than the UK. Who could believe that ?

It follows that we should apply efforts to solving the problems present in the less equal of the two societies first. NO?  Giving special weight and notice to  opinion from the immigrant population from the more equal society. Note these people are hopelessly divided amongst themselves but best not to mention that minor detail.
Though in fact it will prove impossible to solve the problems many will be lucratively employed  and feel especially good about themselves in so trying and whats even better enthusiastically endorse policies designed to make the less equal society more culturally diverse so that it may more closely approximate the more equal society.
Am I right.?
I think I will mail seekswho isit and see what she thinks.

adding:I'm shocked seeksknowitall has just mailed me and said I am too ferkin' clever for my own good.
What does she know? She's a bitch


Seeks, you nailed it!
DomKen's probably singing "Cum-Bay-Ah".
Fuck these countries!
What are we supposed to be in the West, the "Great White Bwana?"
Keep the "foreign aid" checks comming but we're going to lecture you?
Fuck em up the ass sideways!
Cut the checks off then we'll hear "The Drums!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:29:47 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LadyE, it would? So who cares? That's an easy one, send them back if they do that kind of shit.
And you guys need to have a little "chat" with your MOP's there and tell them to knock off the bullshit.
And WTF are you doing letting in people from Somalia? They're fuckin savages!


We're not in the habit of returning people to countries where they might face danger Popeye, and we get a lot of people fleeing here, many of whom recently are Somalis. No problem to give anyone sanctuary from genuine danger, but big problem if they insist on bringing customs and practices with them which are not acceptable - except we're not allowed to say that sort of thing, and we're not fussy about who we're taking in and what theyre fleeing from - for instance, when France kicked out all the North African Islamic radicals causing trouble there, we gave them asylum and the run of the place to indoctrinate and radicalise young Muslims here.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:34:02 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		By the way IMO the correct solution to Apartheid in South Africa should have been to try to dismantle the apparatus and mindest of Arpartheid not take political control from those who built South Africa and hand it to those who didnt.

This is even more true of Zimbabwe and notice that because it is smaller the inevitable disaster has come quicker.
South Africa is sliding down the slippery slope.  Increasing discontent because living standards for the majority have not improved as was expected and promised.Farm land  redistribution/confiscation in favour of blacks and oh yes  major law and order problems. ie large increases in the volume of violent crime.

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:34:19 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LadyE, it would? So who cares? That's an easy one, send them back if they do that kind of shit.
And you guys need to have a little "chat" with your MOP's there and tell them to knock off the bullshit.
And WTF are you doing letting in people from Somalia? They're fuckin savages!


We're not in the habit of returning people to countries where they might face danger Popeye, and we get a lot of people fleeing here, many of whom recently are Somalis. No problem to give anyone sanctuary from genuine danger, but big problem if they insist on bringing customs and practices with them which are not acceptable - except we're not allowed to say that sort of thing, and we're not fussy about who we're taking in and what theyre fleeing from - for instance, when France kicked out all the North African Islamic radicals causing trouble there, we gave them asylum and the run of the place to indoctrinate and radicalise young Muslims here.

E


LadyE, then you're bringing it on yourselves.
That's what you need to be talking with your representatives in the Parliment about!
Tell them to stop making you a dumping ground or a luxury rest home for the third world.
You guys need to start making some NOISE over there.

_____________________________

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:41:20 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Absolutely Popeye

Sadly though we're constrained by the EU and the UN in how we deal with such matters, and of course those whom we elect are only interested at election time and only for so long as it takes to elect them. Plus which we have a strong sense of fair play in this country, which sadly is recognised and taken advantage of by some.

And I wouldnt call it a life of luxury for these people by the way - all we're providing them is the basics (though sometimes in preference to those in need who were already here) but this whole thing will end in disaster because they are excluded - not integrated, and self excluding from the society at large. Dispossessed and rejected people experience discontent and that will lead us to enormous problems in the future.

E

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:43:58 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

DomKen
It would be possible for bigots like you  ie me
in response to my criticism of Indian politics/society.
Do you actually understand what you are posting ?

No. My calling you a bigot is from reading your bigoted comments oiver the last year and half or so.
see:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1181582/mpage_19/key_race/tm.htm#1192668 actually that whole thread shows you to be a bigot quite convincely.

Also just because I stated a fact, that you are a bigot, does not mean I said that only whites can be racists or bigots. which is the lie you tried to tell about me.

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RE: South Africa, Apartheid, Outsourcing - and India - 1/25/2008 3:58:25 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

DomKen
It would be possible for bigots like you  ie me
in response to my criticism of Indian politics/society.
Do you actually understand what you are posting ?

No. My calling you a bigot is from reading your bigoted comments oiver the last year and half or so.
see:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1181582/mpage_19/key_race/tm.htm#1192668 actually that whole thread shows you to be a bigot quite convincely.

Also just because I stated a fact, that you are a bigot, does not mean I said that only whites can be racists or bigots. which is the lie you tried to tell about me.


Seeks, when someone calls me a "bigot" I know that they're pissed because they're losing the argument.

"Cum-Bay-Ah, Cum-bay-ah."
LadyE, you're not "constrained" by the "U.N."
They have no authority to tell *any* country to do anything.
Boy, wait till Prince Charles gets in office, he'll be kicking ass and taking names!

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 20
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