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CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/21/2008 10:45:01 AM

pahunkboy

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http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,141564-pg,1/article.html [outside US, extortion]

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/21/2008 3:29:58 PM

Zensee

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The system of centralised generation and distribution only benefits the utility seller by controlling access. It doesn't do much for the end user. It is wasteful and disfigures the landscape AND it is highly insecure. Remember the big black on the east coast half a decade or so back? North America is only a few hours from savagery without our electricity.

The grid should be the backup and redistribution system, not the primary source. Localised generation should be the rule, especially for emergency services. Hospitals, schools, malls, large highrise structures, even condominiums and private homes should ultimately be self sufficient and contributing.

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/21/2008 4:04:59 PM

luckydog1

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All right, I agree 100% with Zensee. That is some James Bond/Dr Evil stuff though, welcome to the future....

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 10:04:18 AM

Feric

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Are we so sure that it's hackers and not the CIA itself?

< Message edited by Feric -- 1/22/2008 10:06:35 AM >

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 10:14:05 AM

pahunkboy

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im sure. countries try to take down grids and webs as a matter of routine. some of it is harmless- but it goes on 24-7.

if you can paralize a city- you can plunder it.

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 11:25:13 AM

FirmhandKY

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Criminals have launched online attacks that disrupted power equipment in several regions outside of the U.S., he said, without identifying the countries affected.

Interesting, but not in the US. I'd like to know if the attacks were in first world, or third world countries.

Firm

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 1:19:02 PM

Termyn8or

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Zen, a few hours away ? Next summer come on down to Cleveland and I'll give you a tour. There are areas where even in the persence of electicity, there are no signs of intelligent life. We will have to watch each other's back, and guns are highly recommended.

Not to hijack though, about the power. That big blackout is a bit of a mystery to me. We have two power companies here, and their power is not even in sync. I know that for a fact because when I had my business, both companies fed the building.

Since the two sources are not in phase, I don't quite understand how they can be interdependent. They cannot be added unless they are in phase. One company has a nuclear plant in Perry OH and the other mainly buys power from PASNY.

Somehow they botched the design of the "grid" system and it worked against us rather than for us.

Zensee is right though, we are very dependent on power, civilized or not. On my way home from work that day I was unaware of the scale of the blackout, and learned a few things about it's scope. Why the traffic jam ? People ran out of gas. Gas is pumped into your tank by an electirc pump, something that hadn't really occurred to most people until that day.

I went to the store and got enough beer and cigs for two days, I had to grab some cash because it was obvious a credit card isn't going to work. The owner of the store is standing there with a gun. Alarm systems do not work either.

I also noticed a distinct lack of people who know that when you see a traffic light that is not lit you treat it as a stop sign.

Having a cell phone is now one of my hard limits, so I don't know if they worked, but I would imagine at least some of them didn't. I think the regular phone did, and after that we made sure to have some wired phones in the house.

The only source of news was the car radio, and you don't want to run the battery down and you don't want to run it to charge the battery because you can't get gas.

I was a bit lucky because at the time I had a pretty long haul to work so I usually had a full tank of gas.

In the dowstairs suite is an old gravity furnace. It is not going anywhere. We have considered augmenting it with a modern unit, possibly with AC, but the original will stay, why ? Because it is thermopile operated and requires no electricity at all. It generates it's own. Even if natural gas is pumped by electric pumps, it could concievably run off propane. Actually I have a plan for a sort of EGR system to make it unnessecary to rejet it for propane. That old workhorse would probably run just fine off propane though, the heat exchanger is cast. That little idea got back burnered, but at the time it was on my mind.

A little half the countrywide almost, blackout will remind people just how dependent we are on electricity.

Another thing that defies my logic is why it is such a secret which countries were affected by the hackers. Why would something like that need to be kept secret ? What possible threat to the nation would be caused by revealing that information ?

I think they just love the cloak and dagger stuff so much that they'll apply it to anything.

T

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 1:51:34 PM

ottRopesandKnots

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Perhaps the first order of business is to disconnect the computer networks of the power stations from the Internet. Why anyone would want a mission critical system connected to the internet is beyond me.

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 1:58:59 PM

popeye1250

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Gee, if the power grid went down we'd have to do what they did in the old days, actually talk to our friends and neighbors *in person.*
To think, I'd have a captive audience for my jokes and fiddle playing.

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 2:16:00 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ottRopesandKnots

Perhaps the first order of business is to disconnect the computer networks of the power stations from the Internet. Why anyone would want a mission critical system connected to the internet is beyond me.

Bingo!

there we have it folks.. have a self contained system that is not linked to the bloody internet. It can be on an Intranet.. but not the www.

Not all Power companys are made equaly. FPL ( Florida Power and Light) have been tested in the fire. We have Huricanes every time we bloody turn around, and outages like nuts. They have cycling the power down to a fine science here. What with our thunder storms and usage spikes in summers with all those AC units. They know how to work it. We simply do not have the brown outs, or black outs other systems have. Gods knows we pay enough to ensure we dont.

When you get into other systems they may not have had that trial by fire each year.. and thier infrastructure is not conducive to allowing the power surges, and rolls to pass down the line correctly with out effecting the customers. Maybe they do not have enough substations or repeaters? The infactructure or Plant is only as good as what you put into it, and how you maintain and manage it. We pay extra in taxes to ensure our stuff is right.

We all know what it is like to go a week, or three with out electricity. We live in Florida... We all have a weather Radio, Emegrancy cash, non perishable food, bottled water, flash lights, batteries, a full gas can of gas for the car, outdoor cook stoves, propane and coolers. We simply know how to survive if the shit goes down. I dont see why on earth other states do not ask thier citizens to do the same. We have yearly saftey meetings reminding the goobers that at a stop light that the lights have gone out you treat it as a 4 way stop sign. Do not touch downed power lines, or any downed lines. ( basic stuff)

Mind you I am not against weeding out the gene pool... esp of some dumbasses who would touch a downed line.. but why dont other communites do this stuff?

One of my loves is a County Emergency Planner. Each and every county has to have one.. they all have to have plans, and meetings. Why not get involved in your town's plans and ask them why they havent done any of this.. esp. with the terrorist crap going on. Heck.. incase of natural disaster.

Just a thought...

Infatructure is expensive and more complicated then every one should have thier own... that simply is not feasiable. But Proper planning..... that is quite possible.

Gwyn

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 1/22/2008 2:18:55 PM >

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RE: CIA Says Hackers Have Cut Power Grid - 1/22/2008 2:31:14 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gee, if the power grid went down we'd have to do what they did in the old days, actually talk to our friends and neighbors *in person.*
To think, I'd have a captive audience for my jokes and fiddle playing.

Yeehaaaaw! Well shit fire, save matches! The wee'ens would have to disconnect from the playsation and read or somethin' the horrors!

Except for the heat, and the ice cold ( which isnt too bad except for at night) showers.. and the skeeters.... it isnt horrific when all the power goes out.. folks being idiots is the worst, and the unholy mess of trying to get new supplies at Wal-mart ( the only place that actualy restocks durring hurricanes) is a bloody nightmare. Imagine a couple thousand people looking for bags of ice and gas. Not pretty. Hell it aint pretty before the huricanes come. But it is a sight better then shoveling snow all damn winter. LOL

Gwyn,
It was a balmy 81 F today.

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