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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/21/2008 9:25:50 AM

UtopianRanger

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Joy.......

No offense....but you took his post entirely wrong. He wasn't being disrespectful at all ----He was just stating the obvious.

And I'm sure he has something contrary but extremely positive to say about globalism / outsourcing -- But that's only because he wants us to fall to the level of the EU with him

- R

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/21/2008 10:05:19 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

This is only one reason why we need to get out of these "Outsourcing" deals disguised as "Trade Deals."
People need to be able to work in this country and make a good week's pay.
That's *one* reason I didn't vote for John McCain yesterday, anyone who says, "those jobs are gone forever" doesn't belong in the White House.
We don't need someone in the W.H. with a negative attitude.
All it takes is one stroke of the legislative pen and we can be free of "NAFTA", "CAFTA" and "GATT."
And instead of spending money overseas we need to be spending that money here in the U.S.
On things like rebuilding infra-structure that's crumbling and put these veterans to work at good paying jobs.
Whatever these guys need the V.A. should supply it to them.
I'd even support a tax increase for that.

Popeye:
Before you read the rest of this sit down and take a deep breath. The world has not come to an end and hell has not frozen over.

I agree with you completely.
thompson

Popeye.....

I agree with Thompson and will go a little further and say that this is one your finest posts.

We have an old saying in the bar and grocery business: '' Twenty percent of something is better than fifty percent of nothing. ''

As for the outsourcing......They've either read Greenspan's shity book or, someone told these people and they are parroting the fact that we're in a '' global'' economy and outsourcing is necessary evil.

I challenge anyone to show me where it's written or where there's a law that says the United States of America has to be part of this ''race to bottom'', ''greater separation of classes mentality'' that globalism and false free trade impose on us.

Globalism/false-free trade and a uni-polar government isn't part of a progressive evolutionary cycle; it's a diametrical plan to gain more wealth and control.

- R

Ranger, our own government keeps dictating to us that we're in a "global competitive economy."
But, it seems that the only people who have to "compete" are working class people in this country.
As I said before, if we had 1 million lawyers comming to this country from India lowering the billable hour rate for lawyers in the U.S. they'd put a stop to that immediately!
How can we be "competing" against all those countries and at the same time be giving them loans that never get payed back, "forgiving third world debt" and "foreign aid" for the last 40 years?
That's not "competing" that's global socialism at the U.S. Taxpayer's expense to make business conditions more favorable for big corporations.
Big corporations shouldn't be involved in writing legislation that is favorable to big corporations, immigration lawyers shouldn't be involved in writing immigration legislation that will increase their incomes at Taxpayer expense and lobbyists should be outlawed.
What we're seeing in Washington now is *total corruption*.
As for the V.A. I get medical attention there and it's been nothing but the best.
The problem is that they need a lot more money, facilities and personel to do the job these days.

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/21/2008 10:43:09 AM

girlygurl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feric

As usual, there is enough money and resources to kill people, but not enough to take care of them.

I agree.

IMO They'll sign the youngsters up right out of highschool, send them to war and "IF" they come home, well, they're on their own. I resent the fact that the government wants our men and women to fight and put their lives on the line, yet when they come home they're forgotten, and/or not given support they deserve and need.

And while I'm at it, what about the families that are left behind? I'm interested in knowing what the statistics are on family members that are offered support during the deployment and afterward. How can we expect our people to come home to a life they have left and expect them to be the ones to adjust, everyone needs to adjust... don't they?

Mind you, I'm by far no expert on the matter, and I'm speaking from my heart (cause that's just what i do), but if we want our troops to come home and be successful in life, shouldn't we all jump in and take an active roll to ensure they and their family members get the appropriate assistance?

btw, thank you for the thread Level.

girly

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/21/2008 11:16:58 AM

popeye1250

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Yeah, what ever happened to all those "Hire a Vet" programs?
Local, state and fed govts used to hire them all the time.

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/21/2008 11:57:25 AM

PanthersMom

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ohio is known nationally as one of the worst states to get VA treatment in because of the large number of vets here. before you go chewing ppl out who are actually experiencing the problems, maybe you should take into account the fact that not all VA hospitals are the same. waiting over two years for an appointment in neurology for better treatment of a spinal cord injury is not excellent treatment. having to go to another state to have a test done because they're too damn backed up here is absurd! only those who have been patients of the system and their families see this, nobody else gives a damn. just because you get decent treatment there does not mean it happens everywhere. my father refuses to go back to the VA hospital for treatment of his service connected problems because they treat him so poorly. it's not just my hubby; my dad, the neighbor around the corner, the other patients in the ward where hubby stayed for a week, it's everywhere here. you're lucky to live where you can get such wonderful care. all vets should receive the same.

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/21/2008 12:01:34 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yeah, what ever happened to all those "Hire a Vet" programs?
Local, state and fed govts used to hire them all the time.

popeye:
Why hire a vet when you can send the job to China,India or Taiwan?
Why hire a vet when you can hire an illegal for a fourth of what a citizen will work for?
Why hire a vet who will drop you like a hot rock for locking him in the store after hours or fudging his time card?
Why hire a vet when for a dollar you can get a bumper sticker made in China that says "support the troops"?
It's not personal....it's just "good business"
Lets all go to Wall Mart and Harbor Freight and buy the crap that will insure that vets wont have a job tomorrow.
thompson

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/22/2008 4:19:38 PM

slavegirljoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It is the US government that is treating them like cheap disposable items not me and history shows young men what to expect.

When you say "them", i hope you are referring to the women, as well as the "young men", who are serving and have served in the U.S. military during every armed conflict since the American Revolution. For that would be highly disrespectful of you to ignore the 1.7 million female veterans out of the 24.5 million total military veterans, as of 2004. (source: US Census, http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/007611.html), which, includes me.

And, again, i say that your statement is a lie and you are slandering my country's government by saying that. i served in the military for 12 years and, as i stated in my earlier response to you, i have never been treated as a "cheap disposable" commodity by my government, either while i was wearing the uniform of an American soldier or afterward, as an Army veteran. Your comments are insulting to me and to my sense of honor, for having served my country as an United States soldier for all those years. You offer no facts to support your criticism and, therefor, have no right to make that sort of smear against the government which i served.

quote:

Not that the US government is unique in this, it is typical of most governments to ignore the needs of their ex-soldiers once the fighting is done, especially if they are physically or psychologically damaged and are costing the tax payer money.

You make blanket statements without anything to support them but, i have my own, firsthand experience as an American "ex-soldier" and i have never been "ignored" by my government. And, nor, has any veteran i have known ever been ignored by our government. This country has fulfilled every promise it ever made to me and then some. They paid for my college education, with my G.I. Bill, allowed me the ability to buy a house, at a low interest rate, with my V.A. Guarantee Home Loan, the V.A. continues to give me the best medical care i have ever received, free of charge, provided me with a monthly disability pension for life, provided me with job placement assistance, mental health counseling, and other help. So, again, i say that your remarks are unfounded and nothing more than a filthy smear against the country that i pledge my allegiance to, every day.

quote:

As for fighting for their country, the last time US soldiers were fighting for their country was in WWII, all the fighting since has been on imperial jollies for the military-industrial complex.

That's your opinion. That's not the opinion of this American Army veteran, who served during the Vietnam War, and it's not the opinion of the men and women who have volunteered to serve in the U.S. military during the current struggle for peace and security.

By the way, here are some facts about how my government takes care of the men and women who have served honorably in this nation's military:

**VA's fiscal year 2007 spending is projected to be over $80 billion.

**President Bush sought $87 billion in the fiscal year 2008 budget for VA, a 77% increase during his presidency.

**In fiscal year 2006, VA provided $34.4 billion in disability compensation, death compensation and pension to 3.6 million people.

** In addition, about 533,000 spouses, children and parents of deceased veterans received VA benefits. About 232 children and widows of Spanish-American War veterans still receive VA compensation or pensions, 156,320 survivors of Vietnam-era veterans and 250,432 survivors of World War II veterans, and three children of Civil War veterans still draw VA benefits.

**More than 21.8 million veterans, service members and family members have received $75.6 billion in GI Bill benefits for education and training.

**VA also has assisted in the education of more than 775,000 dependents of veterans whose deaths or total disabilities were service-connected.

**VA operates more than 1,400 sites of care, including 872 ambulatory care and community-based outpatient clinics, 135 nursing homes, 45 residential rehabilitation treatment programs, 209 Veterans Centers and 108 comprehensive home-care programs.

**VA’s outpatient clinics registered over 60 million visits in fiscal year 2006.

** The number of patients treated increased by 29 percent from 4.2 million in 2001 to nearly 5.5 million in 2006.

**Veterans with service-connected disabilities receive priority access to care for hospitalization and outpatient care.

**VA provides health care and benefits to more than 100,000 homeless veterans each year.

**VA has helped more than 18 million veterans purchase homes through the VA home loan guaranties, with a total value of $911 billion.

**VA is a leader in hiring veterans. About 60 percent of all male employees are veterans and has 17,346 women employees who served in the U.S. armed forces.
(http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/vafacts.asp)

Now, where are your facts to back-up your statement that my country's government ignores it's veterans? If you have none, then you have nothing to base your remarks on. If you want to say that it's your opinion that the US government treats it's "ex-soldiers" like "cheap disposable commodities", then that's what you should say. But, to make that statement as though it is a statement of fact, when you have nothing to back it up with, makes it a lie.

joy
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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/22/2008 4:42:47 PM

slavegirljoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

ohio is known nationally as one of the worst states to get VA treatment in because of the large number of vets here. before you go chewing ppl out who are actually experiencing the problems, maybe you should take into account the fact that not all VA hospitals are the same.

Then you should say that from your experience and/or the experience of the people you know, there is a problem with the V.A. healthcare facility(ies) in Ohio. But, to make this blanket statement that our government treats veterans, such as myself and my Master and every other veteran i know, like "crap" and "dirt", is an absolute lie.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

the government treats the vets like shit, especially disabled vets. if you didn't lose a limb in combat they treat you like crap. if you lost a limb, they "only" treat you like dirt.

i lost a limb, not due to my military service, and i have never been treated like "dirt" by anyone at any of the 8 V.A. hospitals i have been seen at.

quote:

waiting over two years for an appointment in neurology for better treatment of a spinal cord injury is not excellent treatment. having to go to another state to have a test done because they're too damn backed up here is absurd! only those who have been patients of the system and their families see this, nobody else gives a damn. just because you get decent treatment there does not mean it happens everywhere. my father refuses to go back to the VA hospital for treatment of his service connected problems because they treat him so poorly. it's not just my hubby; my dad, the neighbor around the corner, the other patients in the ward where hubby stayed for a week, it's everywhere here. you're lucky to live where you can get such wonderful care. all vets should receive the same.

As i said before, i have been seen in 8 V.A. hospitals in 5 different states, from Georgia to Vermont, and every single one of them gave me, not only excellent care in a very professional and considerate manner, they did it the same day that i walked in off the street, without an appointment. And, not only did they treat the physical injury or illness i was there for, they also spent the time talking with me to find out what other problems i was having and gave me help for them, as well. i have always been stunned and amazed by how good i have been treated by the people at the V.A. and they never stop amazing me.

If your father, husband, neighbor, etc. has a problem with getting the service they need and deserve from the V.A., then they need to make their concerns known. Every V.A. hospital has a Patient Advocate to help veterans get the care they need. They can also call the main number for the V.A. in D.C., 1-800-827-1000 or, they can contact their elected officials to complain.

joy
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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/22/2008 8:44:50 PM

slavegirljoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Joy.......

No offense....but you took his post entirely wrong. He wasn't being disrespectful at all ----

No offense taken and i stand by my responses to his comments. In my opinion, as a veteran of the U.S. Army, i do find his comments to be extremely disrespectful to my government, to myself and to every outstanding man and woman i had the honor to serve with in the Army and every veteran that i have known since leaving the military.

quote:

He was just stating the obvious.

Stating the obvious? Obvious to who? To you, maybe, if you want to believe the absurd, unfounded and very disrespectful statements that "the US government treats them like cheap disposable items" and, "it is typical of most governments to ignore the needs of their ex-soldiers once the fighting is done, especially if they are physically or psychologically damaged and are costing the tax payer money."

Offering absolutely nothing to support these claims and, with much more verifiable information, along with the firsthand accounts of veterans, like me, that show the opposite is true, the only thing obvious about his comments is that they are nothing more than total bull shit. And, as an American Army veteran, i find it highly offensive for him to make such a statement without anything to back it up.

i have supported my rebuttal to his claims with verifiable facts. Where are the facts to support his "obvious" claims that the US government ignores "the needs of their ex-soldiers" and "treats them like cheap disposable items"?

joy
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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/22/2008 8:53:26 PM

Gwynvyd

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We just discussed this not too long ago. http://www.collarchat.com/m_1396617/mpage_1/tm.htm

I still think the same so I am not going to

.

Gwyn

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/22/2008 9:12:59 PM

slavegirljoy

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You're right, Gwyn, and i still stand by my post on that thread, as well. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1398051

joy
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quote:

ORIGINAL:Gwynvyd

We just discussed this not too long ago. http://www.collarchat.com/m_1396617/mpage_1/tm.htm

I still think the same so I am not going to .

Gwyn

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/22/2008 9:33:11 PM

lablancsecret

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As someone with many family members who were in the military, I have to say that by and large, treatment of vets depends on branch of service, with marines and army generally ending up on the worse side of the scale and air force on the top.

Many of my family members joined because of ROTC in college, and became career officers and made big differences in their units and with the people they worked with or for. Saying that the military is always a "last choice" is unfair honestly.

I can understand and do agree with the fact that vest are treated poorly, but not just by the branches of service they left, but also by members of the general public. They get hassled by anti-war people, are stared at by children who are scared of their injuries, mocked by kids as emotional or physical cripples.

You want to stop the poor treatment of vets? Start by respecting them, the jobs they do, and the fact that they, and many times their families, suffer heavily for you and for others.

As a child, I had to have parents a world apart from me for a good chunk of my formative years. I was lonely, I missed them, and who knows what impact that had on them or me? Imagine the more extreme side of that, having family members in war, and worrying everyday for their safty, and when they come back, the stress still exists.

So I urge each and everyone of you to improve the care of vets in your own way. Send flowers to vet hospitals, or visit sick or elderly or injured vets in the hospital, treasure your vet family members, and last but not least, don't mock or belittle the men and women who served. You may not agree with the reasons they serve, but they pay dearly for what they do.

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/23/2008 12:17:01 AM

Muttling

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Being in the military does not mean that you are putting your life on the line. Remember it takes ten people to support one infantryman.

That is generally true in a symetrical battlefield. We are fighting on an asymetrical battlefield with no front lines. EVERYONE who deploys is targeted by the enemy and the support personnel running convoy are at the greatest risk (not the infantryman.)

That said, there have been a lot of really good comments made here. I just want to add one item with respect to the OP and trade agreements. The individual described as struggling in the OP is not being hurt by trade agreements. He is being hurt by an inability to function. Everything described has nothing to do with the availability of jobs, it is a description of an emotional state that prevents him from holding down a job.

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RE: New generation of homeless vets - 1/23/2008 2:20:16 PM

slavegirljoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

We are fighting on an asymetrical battlefield with no front lines. EVERYONE who deploys is targeted by the enemy and the support personnel running convoy are at the greatest risk (not the infantryman.)

Very true. Destruction of or, seizing of the supply lines, depots, arsenals, communications centers, and other "combat support" and "combat service support" units (and the soldiers within them - male and female), that are crucial to sustaining the military effort of the "combat arms" units is and has been a main objective of the opposing force in most wars, at least as far back as the Civil War.

quote:

That said, there have been a lot of really good comments made here. I just want to add one item with respect to the OP and trade agreements. The individual described as struggling in the OP is not being hurt by trade agreements. He is being hurt by an inability to function. Everything described has nothing to do with the availability of jobs, it is a description of an emotional state that prevents him from holding down a job.

i was wondering the same thing, as i read through this thread, and had to check to make sure i didn't accidentally switch to the thread on the 'global economy' or 'outsourcing'.

Furthermore, it seems to me that to continue to focus only on homeless veterans, which by most estimates, make up about 25% of all homeless persons in the U.S., ignores the other 75% of homeless people, including the approximately 30% who are Families with Children. And, ignores the fact that 42% of the homeless are African-American, that 26% are substance abusers, that 16% are considered mentally ill, and that 13% are employed.

But, those figures don't seem to get the news media's attention so much. i wonder why it is that there seems to be a never ending supply of articles about homeless veterans, lately, but, few, if any, regarding the mutlitudes of homeless who are not veterans, including the homeless children.....hmm...

Could it be that continually running stories about homeless veterans, is a way of playing to the country's current 'patriotic spirit' of supporting the troops, while at the same time, bashing the Bush Administration by showing that the government doesn't care about our military veterans? That, and it makes it sound like serving in the military, especially in combat, will increase your likelihood of becoming homeless, after leaving the service, when, actually, the opposite seems to be the case, according to the National Coalition for the Homeless (NCH):

However, there is some evidence that veteran status reduces vulnerability to homelessness among Black Americans. Black veterans, are 1.4 times more likely to be homeless than white veterans, compared to Black non-veterans, who are 2.9 times more likely to be homeless than white non-veterans.(Rosenheck, 1996). The reduced risk of homelessness among Black American veterans is most likely the result of educational and other benefits to which veterans are entitled, and thereby provides indirect evidence of the ability of government assistance to reduce homelessness.

The U.S. Department of Veterans’ Affairs (VA) administers two special programs for homeless veterans: the Domiciliary Care for Homeless Veterans program (DCHV) and the Health Care for Homeless Veterans program (HCHV). http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts.html

While people are busy criticizing the government for not taking care of our military veterans (which is untrue), they are turning a blind eye to the needs of the many men, women, and children, who are not former military but, who are, for various reasons, unable to maintain for themselves and their families a "fixed, regular, and adequate nighttime residence" (Federal definition of homeless http://www.hud.gov/homeless/definition.cfm).

Something seems terribly wrong, to me, about doing that.

joy
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