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Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 4:03:01 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN1551870320080115?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&sp=true

$6000.00 incease to to new fuel efficeincy; for your already over priced so called cars- gag me.   You flatter yourself.  Inda will sell me a Tata for $2500.00!

How dare you kill the EV1.

Detroit is a wasteland.   Pity those who wont save energy. Hydrogen is a faud too-
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 4:27:23 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		What I think is sad is the fact that most U.S. vehicles can't be sold in China because they don't meet Chinese environmental standards.....

http://pdf.wri.org/china_the_high_road.pdf

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 4:45:35 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		You're right about the death of the EV1. For once we had a viable alternative, and they pull their advance because CA wimps out on their ZES legislation.

(in reply to Muttling)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 5:35:04 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I wonder how I could buy a Tata.  i seen a website- tho the number is strnage

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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 5:44:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		GM made the EV1 to fail. They never intended for it to actually be functional. That's why they only leased them and made getting one such a nightmare. They were positively eager to reclaim them when the leases expired and simply destroyed the cars rather than sellthem to the lessees or on the used market.

What is surprising is that Toyota has broken ranks with the other auto makers and allowed their ZEV the RAV4 EV to remain on the road.

(in reply to bipolarber)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 5:48:47 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		want a car that will last? get a dodge.... just ask al bundy..he has one with 1 million miles on it!!!

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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 6:43:21 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://www.ev1.org/

- it is all a scam....

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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 8:21:08 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		PA Hunk-You wouldn't fit in a Tata- and none of your friends could say it's name with a straight face.

I suspect the reasons behind GMs actions have more to do with the legal profession than anything else.  Want to find a reason behind something really stupid?  Look for a lawyer....

In GMs case- I'm betting it was the lead acid batteries that they had to use.  The EPA has been mandating strict cleanups where lead acids are being used in solar cell installations as battery backup systems- I suspect the writing was on the wall back in the EV1's day.  In other words- some lawyer was going to claim that the EV1 was a rolling toxic waste dump- hence GM destroyed the evidence.  That the rest of the world would suffer is not a problem for most lawyers.  Plus GM is a bit schizophrenic- the guys that developed the EV1 weren't in tune with the rest of the company, so when a different CEO took over- kill the program was his first call.

Think I'm nuts about the lawyer issue and destroying the cars?  Here's an example where I have first hand (well, second hand) knowledge.  The Coast Guard Academy gets rid of its college boats on a periodic basis.  Most schools just sell them off, but the CGA, worried that they're more of a target, orders the older boats (but still perfectly serviceable and would make a wonderful donation to less well endowed colleges or high schools) sawed in half with chain saws and thrown out- lest someone get injured in a used boat and sue the Coast Guard.

GM made an intelligent bet with the EV1.  They gambled that NiMH battery development would move forward smartly with the market for these cars staring them in the face.  The gamble failed- the batteries took another decade and half (well maybe a bit less) before they were ready- but it really wasn't a bad bet. GM thought it could be done- they just didn't do it themselves.  When the NiMHs proved problematic, they had to go to plan B which was lead acids- which they knew would be a problem- plus there's something of a disposal issue.  If GM had the batteries available then that we have now, I'll lay long odds the EV1 would be a different story.  It's a shame- they really did some beautiful engineering on that car.

Sam

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 10:14:37 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Seems like mass production of Electric cars in California would have made the energy crisis worse there also

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/17/2008 11:03:23 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
I wonder how I could buy a Tata...


I'm with you. I'd like to get my hands on a ta ta right now!

Bob

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(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 12:11:37 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Most Ev1 had NiMH batteries.

Also the energy crisis in Cali also would have interfered with gas vehicle fueling as well since gas pumps and cash registers require current. Of course if the GOP supported scum who created the crisis in order to sell power at higher prices had been properly monitored by the Bush administration Cali wouldn't have had any crisis.

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 6:23:30 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		DomKen

Not from what I've heard from GM folks.  The car was designed for NiMHs, but they didn't do well in service- hence they went to lead acids, dropping the cars range significantly.  What surprised GM was that people liked the car even with the lead acids....

Sam

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 7:46:43 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		As usual GM's folks lied about the Ev1.

About 660 lead acid Ev1 were made but recalled after 3 years. Roughly 200 were eventually returned to the lessor's two years later.

About 460  NiMH Ev1 were also manufactured and remained on the road until each ones lease expired and GM took them from the lease holders and destroyed all but a handful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ev1
http://www.cleanup-gm.com/ev1.html
http://www.ev1.org/ (scroll down a ways for the history of the Ev1)

Also of note is that Toyota RAV4 EV's and Honda EV Plus both used NiMH very successfully. In excess of 300 RAV4 EV's, all that Toyota was willing to sell rather than lease, remain on the road after 10 years.

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 8:03:38 AM   
latexbarbiets


Posts: 93
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		What cars are made in detroit anymore, ford and chevy are based in canada and mexico now. And Chrysler is soon to be made in china. You want to buy a good AMERICAN made car? Buy a Toyota!!!!!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 12:04:26 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: latexbarbiets

What cars are made in detroit anymore, ford and chevy are based in canada and mexico now. And Chrysler is soon to be made in china. You want to buy a good AMERICAN made car? Buy a Toyota!!!!!

American made is a very outdated term, most parts are made outside of North America  the correct term is American assembled.

And the majority of Toyota vehicle are made here  in Ontario, Canada at the Cambridge plant. this summer the RAV4 operations will be moved to the new plant in  Woodstock this summer and plans are already getting under for them to move the Lexus to and second plant to be built here in Woodstock.  I work at an autoplant only 18 miles away which is jointly owned by Suzuki and GM.

Would I want a Tata??  absolutely not  I can tell you it won't come with a 5 garantee, you would be lucky to have 6 months,  do I want a car with only 3 brakes especially in an area that has slippery road conditions?NO,  the parts going in will be of the lowest quality so within 1 year it will cost big bucks to replace  parts like tires, ball joints and other suspension parts, brakes.  I have seen the effects when cheaper grades of steel is stamped out,  severe pits in the metal, splitting , warping and paint not adhereing, early rusting and welds not taking or burning through,  to acheive at that price they have to make cuts in put in the vehicles that will mean things like crash beams will be eliminated, they will lack pollution control devices  so safety and intergrity of the vehicle will be effected a lot inorder to produce,  these vehicles are meant only for inter city driving. I would much rather buy a $2500 used car  and have something safer that will last longer.  If everyone  decided to buy , the north american economy would collapse, 1 autoworker job provides 50 sub jobs below from autopart  to waitressing.,  cities where autoplants closed were devastated , 2 cities here are still trying to recover some 20 years later.  If GM  worked on indirect cost cutting they could produce a vehicle to meet the goals without increase cost and lower the cost on regular vehicles


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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 12:11:16 PM   
Feric


Posts: 227
Joined: 1/9/2008
From: San Francisco
Status: offline 		California's energy crisis was created by the folks at Enron. For further details see the video, Enron - Smartest Guys in the Room. Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zMakN-EMLg

Other telling scenes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dm61gVae-I&feature=related 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7psHeproCJo&feature=related





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A figure of startling and unexpected nobility...

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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 1:11:17 PM   
MasterRenegade77


Posts: 1852
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
Status: offline
In My not so humble opinion on the matter is that we need to get people to stop buying new cars for six months, all the while demanding that they produce cars that run on water as we know they are capable of & GM has already produced...

Check out the following links..

Top Gear - Water Car.

Water Car Inventor Murdered

Water Car

Water Car ... Daniel Dingel




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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 1:50:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Hy Wire is just a real fancy H fuel cell car. Never going to be produced. Hydrogen is too hard to handle and fuel cells are too expensive. BTW it doesn't run on water but on hydrogen which may have been obtaned by cracking water but it has a fuel tank of pressurized hydrogen not water onboard. Does anybody really like the idea of switching fuel source to a cryogenic gas that is explosive rather than good old flammable gasoline? Give me a functional BEV. Get the NiMH technology that works today from Chevron, they own the patent for the NiMH batteries that went into the various california EV's that worked well and in the case of the RAV4 EV's continues to work today 10 years later.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 3:56:48 PM   
tigerlilly34


Posts: 70
Status: offline 		hell im still driving my 88 trans am looks like she was in a  war zone but with just under 200,000 miles she still runs very well. my old red one got over 215,000 miles before i parked it. the tata while fuel efficient god forbid you get hit by a big profile vehicle or anyother car for that matter your toast.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Dear GM, BLOW me! CAFE standards - 1/18/2008 4:06:50 PM   
tigerlilly34


Posts: 70
Status: offline 		with the cost associated with getting a more efficient car ill be driving mine till it literaly is deamed a health threat. i cant justify putting myself into more debt.

(in reply to tigerlilly34)
Profile   Post #: 20
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