RE: Bigots (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Bigots (1/10/2008 12:51:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If there is not a biggest than two will gang up on the third. They will NEVER share equally. It is just built into us to act this way.



This sounds like your man John Nash..."people will always act out of self-interest"......problem being that his own experiments designed to prove this, actually suggested the opposite...Prisoners Dilemma?


Hi NorthernGent

I decided for the sake of argument to look up John Nash and the prison Dilemma... this is what I found....A strategy profile [image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/3/8/7380165af120cbfc5d8c8a03c18dfee9.png[/image] is a Nash equilibrium (NE) if no unilateral deviation in strategy by any single player is profitable, that is

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/8/9/7894edbb04257e642caa37f16119cc38.png[/image] ...
The Prisoner's Dilemma has the same payoff matrix as depicted for the Coordination Game, but now C > A > D > B. Because C > A and D > B, each player improves his situation by switching from strategy #1 to strategy #2, no matter what the other player decides. The Prisoner's Dilemma thus has a single Nash Equilibrium: both players choosing strategy #2 ("betraying"). What has long made this an interesting case to study is the fact that D < A ("both betray") is globally inferior to "both remain loyal". The globally optimal strategy is unstable; it is not an equilibrium.
As Ian Stewart put it, "sometimes rational decisions aren't sensible!".[citation needed]


WHAT!!!!!!...[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m27.gif[/image]

I like the Three Monkeys and a bananna better... it may be wrong...although in my experience it has been true... but at least us mere mortals can understand the idea.
 
Butch



Alumbrado -> RE: Bigots (1/10/2008 12:59:51 PM)

Game  theory is only meant to be understood by the 'special ones'...[:D] 



kdsub -> RE: Bigots (1/10/2008 1:04:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Game  theory is only meant to be understood by the 'special ones'...[:D] 


Hi Alumbrado

The special ones must be the other two monkeys that want my bananna...[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]

Butch



Alumbrado -> RE: Bigots (1/10/2008 1:05:34 PM)

No, just the blue one.[;)]



FirmhandKY -> RE: Bigots (1/10/2008 1:12:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Prisoner's Dilemma thus has a single Nash Equilibrium: both players choosing strategy #2 ("betraying"). What has long made this an interesting case to study is the fact that D < A ("both betray") is globally inferior to "both remain loyal". The globally optimal strategy is unstable; it is not an equilibrium.


Butch,

Northern Gent has a limited understanding of the Prisoner's Delimma and Game Theory, based on a leftist leaning BBC TV show he once watched, which tried to tie all the ills of the free market system into it. He and I have had this discussion before.

Game Theory isn't really "Nash's" theory.

Nor, in real situations, is the "Nash equilibrium" the best nor optimum strategy for players in a system. Rather, a "tit for tat with forgiveness" strategy works best.

Earlier posts about these issues.

Firm



NorthernGent -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 3:50:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Northern Gent has a limited understanding of the Prisoner's Delimma and Game Theory,



100% correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

based on a leftist leaning BBC TV show he once watched, which tried to tie all the ills of the free market system into it.



Incorrect - one out of two ain't bad, Firmhand.

What about your man Nash's comments on television regarding his own theory that man will always act out of self-interest - the comments where he claimed his theory was suspect, by virtue of being a result of the age in which he lived and his personal paranoid delusions?

Going back to Butch's comments to the effect that people will always gang up on one another, this is a minority view in the West. Americans seem to go for it, other Western nations do not. It's like a throwback to Thomas Hobbes and Machiavelli pseudo-religious doctrine, where people "see" "evil" everywhere, but fail to understand that this is an opinion based on personal experience.



bipolarber -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 6:43:09 AM)

Lady Ellen, I was responding to the OP, not to your post.

On the subject of racisim: I find that there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike someone on an individual basis, without having to stoop to something as superficial as their skin color, religion, or sexual orientation. Besides, when you decide to hate (or love) an entire group, certain that they are all the same, you will almost certainly be proven wrong. There are wonderful individuals, and assholes, in all groups of people.

editied for spelling and clarity.



Aswad -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 6:45:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

There are wonderful people, and assholes, in all groups of people.


All except one, then, if my memory serves. [;)]

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 6:52:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Game  theory is only meant to be understood by the 'special ones'...[:D] 


Nah, not really. As for a summary for "mere mortals," it goes something like this:

John and Jane are being interrogated in connection with some crime, and are being offered a deal if they rat the other out. If either John or Jane 'fesses up, they lose. If either one rats on the other, they have provided evidence against themselves by admitting to knowledge of the crime, while the other person still denies it and thus can't be tied to it. If both rat on each other, both have been provided evidence against. If both shut up, they both walk, since there is nothing to tie either one of them to the crime being investigated.

Thus, the superior strategy is to shut up, regardless of what the other person is doing.

Health,
al-Aswad.



bipolarber -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 7:14:04 AM)

Asswad,
If you're referring to my stance against Gor, I'd just like to remind you that it's the cultish "philosophy" itself I am against, and NOT the people stupid enough to become involved with it. I just have this "thing" against ritualized misogyny, intolerance of other people's lifestyles, their revisionist history, and the whole "holier than thou" attitude they cop.

I used to consider Goreans as the "Trekkies" of BDSM... silly, strange and harmless.
Now I consider Goreans to be the Taliban/ Al Queida of BDSM.



Aswad -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 7:15:59 AM)

QED.

Now you know how racism works.

Health,
al-Aswad.



bipolarber -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 7:21:43 AM)

No, racisim is the UNTHINKING, automatic hatred of a particular race of people. Goreans aren't a race. They're a movement. Like the American Nazi party, or Scientology, or the Heaven's Gate Cult. They are a wrong turn in the philosophical evolution of mankind. A giant step backward, in my researched, informed, humble opinion.



DrDoo -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 7:56:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I read an encouraging story from England where this goes on all the time.


pray do tell what goes on all the time here England?....bigotry? racism? queer bashing?



kdsub -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 8:01:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Going back to Butch's comments to the effect that people will always gang up on one another, this is a minority view in the West. Americans seem to go for it, other Western nations do not. It's like a throwback to Thomas Hobbes and Machiavelli pseudo-religious doctrine, where people "see" "evil" everywhere, but fail to understand that this is an opinion based on personal experience.


Hi NorthernGent

Yes I may be a throwback... and as stated it is an opinion... but I do understand it is based on personal experience. In the end what other experience is important or matters beside a personal one? We all go thru life reacting to personal experiences and the total of personal acts make up the whole of mankind. The whole may not be right but it makes no difference. Over the history of mankind the whole makes reality... not truth or reason.

Butch

PS…  For your own good please be aware there is evil everywhere.



Griswold -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 9:27:42 AM)

I need to go pee...and I'm jealous of those who can hold it longer than me.




NorthernGent -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 10:17:35 AM)

Watch you don't trip over your socks on the way......



NorthernGent -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 10:20:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

PS…  For your own good please be aware there is evil everywhere.



Sounds like an excerpt from US foreign policy documents.....

We must fight evil, we must tame evil, we must laminate evil, we must wear evil around our necks at the backstage party in paradise.......find the evil ones, Lord Vader.



Alumbrado -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 10:29:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

No, racisim is the UNTHINKING, automatic hatred of a particular race of people. Goreans aren't a race. They're a movement. Like the American Nazi party, or Scientology, or the Heaven's Gate Cult. They are a wrong turn in the philosophical evolution of mankind. A giant step backward, in my researched, informed, humble opinion.



Whereas we Gwareans, represent the twue advance of sentient life in the universe.[:D]




kdsub -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 11:01:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

PS…  For your own good please be aware there is evil everywhere.



Sounds like an excerpt from US foreign policy documents.....

We must fight evil, we must tame evil, we must laminate evil, we must wear evil around our necks at the backstage party in paradise.......find the evil ones, Lord Vader.

I knew it  I knew it!!!!...You are evil...we, as in Pres Bush and I, will need to add you personally to the evil empire list.



NorthernGent -> RE: Bigots (1/13/2008 11:17:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

PS…  For your own good please be aware there is evil everywhere.



Sounds like an excerpt from US foreign policy documents.....

We must fight evil, we must tame evil, we must laminate evil, we must wear evil around our necks at the backstage party in paradise.......find the evil ones, Lord Vader.

I knew it  I knew it!!!!...You are evil...we, as in Pres Bush and I, will need to add you personally to the evil empire list.


The updated axis of evil - North Korea/Iran/USSR...or is it Iraq/China/Nicaragua....I dunno, so much evil in the world........let's go for Fiji/Wales/Luxembourg/Northern Gent/anyone who hasn't sent the United States a christmas card in the last 25 years - the new axis of evil. 



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