NorthernGent
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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
not majority rules (which is a PC way of saying mob rule).
Democracy comes complete with flaws, as with any system, but the underlying premise is that the majority are far less likely to make an irrational decision (in comparison with interest groups - such as today's kings in the market society).
What exactly do you mean by "mob rule"?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
And there are some legitimate uses for taxation. They are outlined in the US Constitution.
Wasn't the US constitution deliberately left open for amendment? thus that which was deemed to be "legitimate use of taxation", was open for change.
Presumably there are various opinions on taxation, how do you decide as a group on the way forward? Will of the majority, or something else?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
There are also other ways of doing works such as roads - usage fees, tolls, etc. Wouldn't that be more equitable? Charge for using the roads, schools, etc rather than just making everyone pay for it, regardless of how they use it? I'm not against all taxation. I'm against unnecessary taxation and income taxes.
We have a system of charges and tolls in England, and I'd agree with you that this is the more equitable method in relation to road use - no argument from me there. Applying this to schools in England wouldn't work because of the relative lack of social mobility in our society (by all accounts, the US and the UK have the greatest wealth gaps in the developed world - the irony eh - the nation that was founded in response to corruption and privilege, has become the greatest proponent of the aforementioned ills).
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
I said that opportunity exists for all, some more than others, true, but that is true in life. Every opportunity I had is available to probably most. Public school - check. Got a job at Wendy's and paid for a car - check. Joined the army - check. Paid for college with a job and student loans - check.
Human behaviour isn't as simplisitic as saying "I've paid for everything, why can't everyone else". People live different lives, with different personal experiences, and the mind is a strange thing - you never know when yours might fuck up and when you'll need help. There all sorts of good reasons why people need a hand in guiding them back into employment, e.g. people who have suffered with depression and lost all confidence through being out of work for years, the disabled who struggle to compete for obvious reasons, but given a helping hand can contribute to the economy and society, there are other reasons but I'll give you an example of what I mean, and how taxation can help people seriously in need:
I'm currently working on a project designed for abused children. A particular girl was gang raped and so traumatised that she couldn't speak to anyone for about 8 months. Some of our female staff have managed to help persuade this girl to accept a training post in one of our projects - the training is nurturing abused horses - that way she isn't forced to speak to people (particularly men). She's improving, her confidence is still very shaky indeed, but she's steadily making progress. There are hundreds of thousands of people like this in England (I'm guessing it's the same in the US) who need help to give them a chance in life, and it all costs money.
The world isn't as straightforward as everyone gets a fair crack of the whip - it ain't - so, you can either abandon the marginalised, or you can help them.
By the way, who was funding your student loan? and, presumably, you couldn't have gone to college without that loan?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
What you are after is for the government to make sure that all things are equal, and that is not possible, probable, or even advisable.
No, I'm not after equal outcome at all. You're reducing human behaviour to the cold, hard, science of "an eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth" - it ain't like that - life is complex. I'm after a system which helps the marginalised get back into work and generally have a chance in life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
Hospitals are commonly built by private corporations, churches, etc.
A private corporation will want a return on its investment - the highest return possible - when it comes down to health v proifts, there will only be one winner and that is profits.
This is why a public administration body has the edge - it has a duty to the public's well-being, whereas a corporation has a duty to its shareholders wealth.
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ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
Education is where I am a little torn - I recognize the good schools provide to society,
Education/health/housing/parental upbringing etc are simply components of a much wider picture - a chance in life. All of these fill a need in society. Are you torn on education because you've experienced the benefits of schooling? Will you be torn if you suffer from depression in later life and need some help, just like you needed help with your schooling?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
Because my parents put money into the system, and rightly expected something in return.
Agreed, a return is a fair call. Then again, the vast majority of people put money into the system, and if you can guide those struggling for various reasons, then so will they, and thus reduce the burden on the system.
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ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
Quite simply, you are a socialist from the tone of your posts.
You'll find that you're incorrect, but it's not important to this discussion, and I've better things to do with my time than go through the ins and outs of Socialism and Liberalism to someone who quite clearly throws labels around, but doesn't take the time to understand them.
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ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
You believe that the world's social ills can be solved by taxing the rich and giving to the poor.
The cold, hard science eh.
In fact, I believe the wealthy have made their money on the back of society, and thus are indebted to society; they can go a long way to repaying their debt by freeing up a small portion of their fortune, earned on the back of society, for helping those who are struggling with life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia
That is a system bound to lose in the end, because in total, you are taxing (punishing) the producers and rewarding the consumers. This is not an economically sound system and will fail.
Not at all. There's an economic benefit as well as a social one; where you can guide people back into work, they earn a return on their labour to further economic growth, and they don't act as a drain on taxpayers funds.
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RE: taxes - 
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