National ID-invasvie (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 5:39:06 AM)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=FWNUFJIWHJMXJQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/opinion/2008/01/01/do0101.xml



farglebargle -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 5:41:45 AM)

Papers are what slaves need to show they are "Permitted" to do something or be somewhere.




pahunkboy -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 5:50:32 AM)

maybe tooth fillings should have RFIDs chips in them.



thornhappy -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 7:51:00 AM)

Not enough room.

thornhappy



NorthernGent -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 11:06:14 AM)

The article is from a newspaper known here as "The Torygraph".

There's no mention of who started this ball rolling, i.e. the Tories, for whom it was fine to spy on union leaders, and it was fine to install CCTV in town centres largely populated by working class types on a Friday and Saturday night, and it was fine to send the police into left wing demonstrations without any crime being committed. The Torygraph is now up in arms because these particular measures will touch on the rural Middle Classes of Dorset and the like, and the Tories can't have that happening to their own - protectors of civil liberties? jokers more like. 

Fortunately, the Liberal Democrat Party genuinely do place great store in civil liberties - as implied in the article - so there's a spot of light at the end of the tunnel, perhaps.

Edited to add: it's going to take some serious determination to haul back this runaway horse, though.



kdsub -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 1:15:38 PM)

Hmmm In America I fail to see the difference from a national ID and a social security card…or a drivers license for that matter. Other than making identity theft easier I don’t see a down side to a National ID.  

We are already surrounded by personal ID’s from bank and credit cards to Internet access.

To me it is a non-issue blown out of proportion by privacy fanatics… As if any information about you is private now.
Butch



NorthernGent -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 1:36:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

To me it is a non-issue blown out of proportion by privacy fanatics… As if any information about you is private now.
Butch



As it happens, the opposite is the problem, here. The establishment aren't interested in what you do within the four walls of your home; you're no threat to them from that position.

Consider this, though:

1) You're on the streets demonstrating against government policy, peacefully I may add.
2) There is CCTV all over the show, so the police have the ability to home in on the ringleaders.
3) Presumably, with an ID card system, there'll be a copy on someone's PC in an office in Whitehall.
4) CCTV coupled with an ID card system will give them the power to put a face to a name and address.
5) They'll be round the home of known, commited protestors in no time - "is this really worth it, sir?"....."would your wife and children appreciate you being banged up at her majesty's pleasure?"..."do yourself a favour, pal, fall into line and you, your wife and children can go about your lives hassle free".
6) Once the ringleaders are backed off, the less committed will lose heart, too.

The Poll Tax riots are a good example of where an ID card system would have allowed the police control over the situation. The Poll Tax was a tax that broke the back of pensioners and those on low incomes; left-wingers did something about it and rioted in London. The tax was subsequently knocked on the head.

For those with no wish to protest, presumably they're not stray dogs who need a collar 'round their necks with name and address in the event they get lost.



kdsub -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 4:38:06 PM)

Old J Edgar had little trouble keeping track of, to him, subversives without a national ID and fancy face recognition software but I do see how this may make it easier.

I am not sure about all states in America but Missouri drivers license requires a picture. I am sure the federal government has access to this information. If they want to abuse individual privacy rights having a National ID or not having one makes little difference I believe.
Butch



NorthernGent -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 4:42:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am not sure about all states in America but Missouri drivers license requires a picture. I am sure the federal government has access to this information.



They may have access, but they need a co-ordinated system to enable it to run smoothly; trying to glean a high volume of accurate information from incompatible systems is easier said than done.

The ID proposal will be on a centralised database, which means information at their fingertips.



Politesub53 -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 4:50:47 PM)

NG i agree the Tories got the ball rolling with cctv. When will the Labour party do something about it, and ban the use of cctv. The fact is, since they have come to power all they have done is increse the nanny state. They want more cctv, a national ID card, and are even introducing a scheme where cctv can be used to catch drivers for parking in the wrong place. This is being made law in the coming months.

Blaming the Tories for everything, even though they have been out of power for ten years or so seems a little ungenuine to me.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 4:52:48 PM)

quote:

Old J Edgar had little trouble keeping track of, to him, subversives without a national ID and fancy face recognition software but I do see how this may make it easier.

I am not sure about all states in America but Missouri drivers license requires a picture. I am sure the federal government has access to this information. If they want to abuse individual privacy rights having a National ID or not having one makes little difference I believe.
Butch


All states require a picture on driver's licenses.  There is a big difference in a driver's license and a National ID.  Driving is something that you don't have to do.  You are not required to get a driver's license, unless you want to operate a motor vehicle on public roads.  Most states do issue identification cards for people who don't drive or are not allowed to drive.  I don't believe you are required to have one of these, but it does make it harder to purchase controlled products like alcohol, tobacco, medicines, and a variety of other things.  You are not required to get a social security number as far as I know either.  Our parents make that decision for us as children.  You are required to pay social security taxes, but no one forces you to take that money upon retirement.  All that being said, it is still your choice to have or not have identification. 

A national ID card would be required, and for that reason is a scary prospect.  It is not true that the government can track us all.  If you believe that, you need to go down to a missing persons center or the post office and look at all the pictures of people that are being looked for.  A person can disappear if they really want to.  In my opinion, a person should have the right to live in obscurity if they so choose.  I don't like the idea of being forced into a national database.  I don't want to live in a society where the government issues and requires a card that is used to track our movements, purchases, communications, and lifestyle.  It's simply not something that should be tolerated in a free society.   



kdsub -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/2/2008 5:18:32 PM)

I believe, as a citizen, you must have a social security number to legally work in the United States.

A person with a national ID can disappear just as easily as without one.

If I’m not mistaken there is no right of privacy in the Constitution. Search and seizures and such are not the same thing as an ID.

It is not the ID I would be worried about but the abuses of our rights.  

Butch



mhawk -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 9:19:56 AM)











i have never had a drivers license in my entire life nor do i ever want one.having only state issued ID cards has never presented a problem.i have been able to get bank accounts,cell phones(contract ones),internet,checking accounts,entrance into bars (when i go and when i get "carded",i have bought alcohol and cigs no issue(with sate ID),registered to vote,joined the military in my younger days,applied for a passport and got it (no problem) all with state issued ID cards.

i see the point of national ID cards as pointless as i see barcodes tattooed or devices implanted to keep track of citizens.





sambamanslilgirl -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 10:46:19 AM)

the downside to a National ID, think communist U.S.S.R. needing papers to travel within the Soviet block.  anyone including illegals immigrants these days can get a SS card, driver's license etc however the ID is designed to distinguish American citizens from the others with a chip to track your movements. 



pahunkboy -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 1:23:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hmmm In America I fail to see the difference from a national ID and a social security card…or a drivers license for that matter. Other than making identity theft easier I don’t see a down side to a National ID.  

We are already surrounded by personal ID’s from bank and credit cards to Internet access.

To me it is a non-issue blown out of proportion by privacy fanatics… As if any information about you is private now.
Butch


Even tho the Social Security number law states the number is to be used for no other purpose- one needs it for almost everything.

When Amish go to donate blood they give a tax ID number. They refuse to have soc sec. 



cyberdude611 -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 1:30:21 PM)

What is the big deal about national ID cards?

Arn't passports sort of like the same thing?



Stephann -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 1:56:50 PM)

CD,

Not really.  A passport isn't necessary for anything unless you leave the country.  Your passport isn't (and, honestly, can't) be used for opening a bank account or contracting telephone service.  In fact, I've had cashiers refuse to sell me beer because I had a passport and not a Texas or California state ID.  The only use I've had for the number on my passport, is when I travel.  Unlike my social security number, when you have your passport replaced, you're given a new passport number.

Personally, I'm fine with the idea of a national identification card.  I'm not fine with any laws that absolutely require possession of that card.  I'd rather a 'national identity number' to be used for just that, so that my Social Security number could remain private.

Stephan





popeye1250 -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 2:45:32 PM)

Stephan, good idea, then we wouldn't have to be giving out ss #s unless for a bank account, credit card or job.
Like others here say they already have all of our information and credit card cos and banks have more info on us than the govt does!
It's not "the govt" we need to be worrying about it's marketing companies!
If there's a way to make money from us they want to know about us!
I have no problem with a national i.d.



MasDom -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/3/2008 3:50:58 PM)

Hey thats why you drop the card at home before going out and doing things you'd get caught for.
If that card was at home isn't that an alibi?

And as for preachers, well gees why not just put all those camera's in the stupid church, or were ever the quire boys get off to...
Not like that wouldn't just stop it there, or at least make it obvious why your kids are at the preachers home so much...



LadyEllen -> RE: National ID-invasvie (1/4/2008 4:02:27 AM)

Given government history in compiling, handling, securing and using personal data and the technology for managing them, the entire idea of a national ID card system is so foolish as to not require any argument about privacy for it to be negated.

The arguments put forth about preventing identity theft are stupid - the government itself has recently risked such theft on multiple occasions, by losing information which should not have been possible to lose. If all personal information, or at least a much larger amount of it than is normally available from a single source, is put in one place, then identity theft becomes a far greater danger.

The arguments put forth about accessing public services and social security benefits are stupid - these cards will be manufactured, and anything which can be manufactured can be copied - whatever the intricacies of doing so, and the value of fake cards will be such that the intricacies will be worked around by those with the means to do so, as a huge money making venture.

The arguments about detecting crime and preventing terrorism are stupid - again, the cards will be possible to copy and to produce, and those with the means and motivation to do so will do so. Do we really believe that organised crime syndicate members and terrorists will apply for and use a government issued card that may later be used to identify them?

Every argument which the government has put forward for this scheme has been shot down in flames - their scramble on each occasion to find another argument for them is interesting, and indicative of the possibility that we are not in fact hearing any real reason for the cards because either there is no real reason or because the real reason is something which none of us would accept.

And the argument that if one is an honest, upright citizen one has nothing to fear - well, thats the scariest argument of all in my view.

E



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