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European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Scheng... - 12/29/2007 6:17:06 PM   
dolceservo


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quote:

European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone
Dec 20, 2007
TALLINN (AFP) — European leaders from both sides of the defunct Iron Curtain Friday marked the expansion of the Schengen passport-free travel zone to nine mostly ex-communist states, saying it was one more step to ending old divides.
"Today, along with the elimination of internal border controls, the citizens of nine European countries have lost their last reason to say,'I'm going to Europe' when leaving home to visit Paris, Rome or Lisbon," said Toomas Hendrik Ilves, president of Estonia, which was ruled by the Soviet Union for five decades after World War II.
"We are at home, our common European home," he said during a ceremony at the port of Tallinn.
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said the expansion of the passport-free zone was "symbolic because it was almost unthinkable what we are living today, some years ago", before the fall of the Iron Curtain.


Here where i live it is a story that has made big headlines for about a week, i just wanted to share it with you all and see if it sparks anyone's interest.

Happy new year to you all.

d.






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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/29/2007 7:22:00 PM   
EvilGenie


Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Morocco and Maine occasionally
Status: offline 		This interests me/us a great deal. Where I call home is Morocco, though for many reasons I am temporarily back in the US briefly. mine is Moroccan and is still living there though moving to Spain soon. Much of his family is in Spain and Germany where we do not wish to live forever, though Spain isn't it either, at least not mainland Spain. Long story short, one of the Schengen zone countries is most likely where we will land for good. Morocco simply may not be an option for us to go back to live in as much as we'd love to.

Right now we are looking at Las Palmas de Gran Canaria which wouldn't be a huge issue.

Thanks for the update!

(in reply to dolceservo)
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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 2:52:57 AM   
dolceservo


Posts: 18
Joined: 10/26/2005
Status: offline 		such agreements give benefits especially to people like you.

15 years ago if your Moroccan counterpart wanted to live in spain and work, he would have needed a visa valid one year or more. In case he wanted to visit france or italy, even for one day, just to give a look at the uffizi or get a glimpse at the gare d'orsay, he would have had to go back to Morocco, go at the nearest french and italian consulate, get two other visas, tourist visas, valid respectively for france and italy.

Now with the same visa valid for spain he will be able to travel in 23 countries without any border control.

good luck with your life in spain
and have fun travelling ;)






(in reply to EvilGenie)
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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 4:37:43 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Just for clarity, in case anyone is getting excited about the UK possibly being included - you will still need a passport or your national ID card to get in here, even if you are from another EU state. Discussing this with our new man in Czech, he said that the UK would never join the Schengen Agreement for several reasons - the Murdoch reason (the vile xenophobia poured from his publications), "terrorism" (we're second in line for attack, apparently - though lately its residents who are the attackers), and immigration (which is odd, since EU citizens have the right to come here and work and whatever, regardless - but see Murdoch, above).

What concerns me about this though, is that we now effectively border Belarus, Russia and Ukraine - which borders are not as strong in my view, as they might be. Indeed, this is one of my reasons why Turkey should not be admitted, because then our border would be with Iraq, Syria et al - a border which in its present form is extremely porous.

E

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 5:36:04 AM   
EvilGenie


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From: Morocco and Maine occasionally
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

such agreements give benefits especially to people like you.

15 years ago if your Moroccan counterpart wanted to live in spain and work, he would have needed a visa valid one year or more. In case he wanted to visit france or italy, even for one day, just to give a look at the uffizi or get a glimpse at the gare d'orsay, he would have had to go back to Morocco, go at the nearest french and italian consulate, get two other visas, tourist visas, valid respectively for france and italy.

Now with the same visa valid for spain he will be able to travel in 23 countries without any border control.

good luck with your life in spain
and have fun travelling ;)








I have been travelling since I was 4 so no news there, however, my husband still requires a visa to travel to Spain and work. Spain doesn't have open broders with Morocco although it still won't give up hold of 2 cities on Moroccan soil, that's another debate entirely.

I already did my time in the UK, it isn't a Schengen zone country and IMO never will be.

I just woke up so if I sound crotchety, my apologies. I wanted to answer but my typing skills at this hour are limited.

Best,

EG

(in reply to dolceservo)
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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 6:01:14 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		Living in Europe can be good, but I would advise you not to seek your long term home in the eastern part. Unless you are fluent in the languages, you and your partner, esp. if he is Moroccan, can end up in real danger. Trust me, I have lived and traveled there extensively, and anyone who is not "normal" by their standards is immediately "looked after" if they try to stay. Stick to the original EU partners.

(in reply to EvilGenie)
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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 8:32:03 AM   
EvilGenie


Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Morocco and Maine occasionally
Status: offline 		Yeah I know what you're talking about and we need to be living within travelling distance to Morocco anyway. That being said, I speak 2 handfuls of languages fluently and my husband is a linguist as well as professor of language speaking more of them than I do. Eastern Europe I have spent extensive time in and does not interest me to live in nor does it mine. I am not sure though that all of Eastern Europe can be broadly generalised.  Unless there are specific countries of which you have first hand knowledge, to list for others who may need the advice.

Thanks,

EG

< Message edited by EvilGenie -- 12/30/2007 8:35:55 AM >

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 8:35:21 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Luckliy I did not need a passport to travel from Illinois to Pennsylvania., that is for now....

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 12:37:02 PM   
dolceservo


Posts: 18
Joined: 10/26/2005
Status: offline 		Responding to LadyEllen

I don't think the Uk has not joined the Schengen agreement for security reasons.
As a matter of fact there is some parts of the agreement that would implement and improve the security inside the EU. The SIS (schengen information system )for example enables police forces across Europe to share data on law enforcement. It can cover stolen cars, court proceedings and missing persons.
In addition to that, as you wrote, the possible terrorists may well hold the british nationality.

I think that the UK is staying out of the schengen agreement just like is staying out of the Euro or opposes the adoption of an European constitution. The Uk considers the maintainence of its sovereignty a priority over the objectives of the union.

Sometimes i wonder why the UK joined the European Union in the first place.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 12:46:14 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

The Uk considers the maintainence of its sovereignty a priority over the objectives of the union.



Agreed. There are good reasons:

a) Economically: it's nonsensical to harmonise economies of varying standards/interest rates/inflation rates etc.
b) Politically: we have a difference of approach in comparison to the continental Europeans.

The best argument is the social one; the poorest socio-economic groups will fare better where governed by the EU.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

Sometimes i wonder why the UK joined the European Union in the first place.



Statesmanship. We want the benefits of being a part of a large trading block, but not at the expense of submitting to the common will of Europe.

The feeling over here is that the whole thing is geared towards Germany achieving their WW1 aims, i.e. a European common market ran by the Germans; people here just won't accept that: not in a million years.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 1:05:26 PM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi dolceservo

The reason we're in but not quite in, is because we want the trading benefits but will absolutely not have "Johnny Foreigner" telling us what's what, what!?

I find the whole situation, as whipped up by Murdoch et al, absolutely disgusting. We ought to be at the heart of it, instead of sniping from the sidelines at decisions over which we were too damned Great a Great Britain to involve ourselves in.

E

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 2:26:28 PM   
dolceservo


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quote:

Statesmanship. We want the benefits of being a part of a large trading block, but not at the expense of submitting to the common will of Europe.


I agree with you. The Uk benefits a lot from being part of the largest free market block of the world.
Large japanese car manifacturers have invested in the uk ( nissan in sunderland. toyota in burnaston, honda in swindon) among other things , also because the cars they produce there can be sold freely in the whole common market.
The economical advantages for the Uk to be part of the union are clear.

What seems quite clear to me (and to most people on this side of the channel)  is that the European Union was never meant to be just a trading block.
The political ideals and the political goal of unification were christal clear since the beginning of the process in the fifties, they were even more clear when the UK joined in 1973.

It's like if the UK begged to receive a ticket for the opera, once the French refused to give out that ticket, the british begged again, with the help of the danish and the norwegians this time. Finally they receive this ticket in 1973 with the help of the italians. Once the british are in the theater however, they don't fancy the 9th simphony of beethoven "the ode to joy" anymore, they go sit alone in a corner, take out their electric guitar and start singing "freedom" on the notes of George Michael.




(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 3:50:38 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

What seems quite clear to me (and to most people on this side of the channel)  is that the European Union was never meant to be just a trading block.
The political ideals and the political goal of unification were christal clear since the beginning of the process in the fifties, they were even more clear when the UK joined in 1973.






What makes you think these ideas were crystal clear in the 50s. Churchill and others had called for a United States of Europe. This was all due to the effects and carnage of ww1 and ww2.

The original three treaties were the coal and steel industries of Germany and France. The idea being if they were merged then going to war with each other would be harder. Next there was the European policy on Nuclear power. Finally the European Economic Community.

In the sixties when the UK applied to join, De Gualle used the veto, fearing France may lose its place as the voice of Europe. In 1973 we applied again and didnt actually join until 1975 after a referendum which stated the aim of the union was soley economic. The vote was 2-1 and if Heath had mentioned anything about surrendering sovereignty, i doubt he would have won the vote.

The politicisation of the EU didnt start creeping in until the late seventies, by then we were already in. As for the Japanese car industry being of benefit to the UK. I think you will find it caused the demise of our own and they took advantage of a huge supply of skilled workers and if memory serves, massive financial incentives from our government.


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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 4:28:50 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'd like to know, in my pleasantly pissed up state (Bailey's is wonderful stuff)

WHAT THE FUCK IS OUR PROBLEM?

"Johnny f'in Foreigner" seems to have it well worked out - how to get trains running on time, how to get a health service working, how to run an economy with an eye to business and social concerns - AND YET, WE STILL THINK WE KNOW BETTER?

IT BUGGERS ALL BELIEF

Thank you for listening

E

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/30/2007 5:25:21 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

The political ideals and the political goal of unification were christal clear since the beginning of the process in the fifties, they were even more clear when the UK joined in 1973.



1973 was a different age; England's economy wasn't in a particularly healthy state as a consequence of two world wars almost bankrupting the country: close relations with Europe were advantageous.

Today, we're in a much better position from which to proceed cautiously.

I have no problem with the continental Europeans, but, politically, we're very different; continental Europeans have a history of totalitarianism - we have a history of liberalism, so there is a disconnect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

the French



Therein lies a large chunk of the problem: we don't see eye to eye in the political arena. You have to consider the history of both countries: in the 17th century, the French state was syphoning off much of the wealth generated, whereas the English commerical classes held real power and built a political system aimed at safeguarding individual business initiatives - the disconnect has remained something along those lines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

refused to give out that ticket, the british begged again, with the help of the danish and the norwegians this time. Finally they receive this ticket in 1973 with the help of the italians. Once the british are in the theater however, they don't fancy the 9th simphony of beethoven "the ode to joy" anymore, they go sit alone in a corner, take out their electric guitar and start singing "freedom" on the notes of George Michael.



Statesmanship - when needs must.

Unless the English need Europe, or anyone else for that matter, we're more than prepared to go it alone.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/31/2007 1:31:11 AM   
dolceservo


Posts: 18
Joined: 10/26/2005
Status: offline 		The political goals of the Union were meant to be achieved through the integration of the economies. The slogan was : economy first. The slogan was not : economy only.
As a matter of fact the UK built up the EFTA, a parallel common market block in response to the European common market, the EFTA had however no political goals. 

When the UK joined(and left the EFTA), there was already an European Council and most importantly an European Court of justice. An organ with no economical goal at all, with the aim of promoting the integration and the implementation of rights such as the free movement of people and the equality among citizens of Europe.
Having said that, when the UK joined in the seventies, if someone had stated that the UK was joining a simple free common market was either naive or a liar.  No serious British stateman ever made that statement however. At least not in public.


quote:

Churchill and others had called for a United States of Europe. This was all due to the effects and carnage of ww1 and ww2


I don't think the formation of the EU was all due to the carnage of the wars.
The peace argument was used widely, that is true. there is more to that however.
I will just make one example.
The EU was a tool against the "balkanization" of Europe that the USSR hoped to achieve. As a matter of fact the USA and truman made pressure on the Europeans to unite and stand together with a single voice against the tiranny. this "tool" could be used today against the arrogance of Putin or the continous violations of civil rights of China.
The pressures Europe could make as a single entity on a political or economical level have ten times the influence that the UK, France, Germany or Italy could implement standing alone and divided.





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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/31/2007 1:39:43 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Luckliy I did not need a passport to travel from Illinois to Pennsylvania., that is for now....


Yeah, but they can just track your ez-pass transponder by satellite anyway, so why bother with the paperwork?



_____________________________

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/31/2007 2:51:16 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Lady Ellen..... if things are so good elsewhere, why are so many eastern Europeans rushing to the UK ?  Even the governments own figures admit the numbers are far larger than ever expected, and placing a strain on resources.

Dolcesrevo, Heath took us into the EU in 1973 and the labour party wanted us out. They voted against staying in at their party conference in 1975 as i recall. Wilson decided to hold a referendum, the Conservatives helped to push it through. They did this by focusing on three things. Employment, no British jobs will be lost, yeah right..... Food and free trade were the other issues. I was around at the time and voted, constantly we were told it would not affect the UK political process.

Clearly this wasnt true, like it or not if the public knew the real likely outcome, the referendum would have got a no vote. One Tony Blair was an avid anti EU campaigner, ironic isnt it.

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/31/2007 3:03:35 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

The political goals of the Union were meant to be achieved through the integration of the economies. The slogan was : economy first. The slogan was not : economy only.



Out of interest, what do you believe to be the political goals of the Union?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

and the equality among citizens of Europe.



Equal access to opportunity is admirable; I'd like to see it in place, here.

I'm in the minority, however; I'd guess 80% of Englishmen couldn't care less about equal opportunity in continental Europe, and I suppose I'm not particularly bothered: I want it here - France etc is not my problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

this "tool" could be used today against the arrogance of Putin or the continous violations of civil rights of China.



I don't want to see decisions based upon fear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dolceservo

The pressures Europe could make as a single entity on a political or economical level have ten times the influence that the UK, France, Germany or Italy could implement standing alone and divided.



It doesn't have to be black and white. In the age of the global economy where continents are trading in blocks, Europe has to compete with that, and it requires some level of integration, but not to the extent where we give up our rights to determine our own interest rates, foreign policy, law etc.

The English and French are going to have a serious problem in the event of an attempt to harmonise. Granted, we're separated by a channel of water, but politically and culturally we're a million miles away from each other. I wouldn't underestimate the power struggle at the heart of this: can there possibly be an equal partnership between England, France, Germany? If not, would people of any of those countries accept playing second fiddle? I doubt the English people would accept anything less than our way being the way, which of course is happening as the French and Germans move towards the Anglo-Saxon model, but the French are painting it as something different in order to have their people think they're not being Anglicised, and that suggests an issue; when the penny drops, the French will not be happy. What about Spain and Italy? will the people of those countries accept being in the second tier? There's a real power struggle here, and some of those countries mentioned have a long history of political volitility; history suggests harmony and prosperity are best achieved through keeping the contintental Europeans at arms length: on good terms? yes, where possible; embroiled in contintental European politics? not a good idea.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Sc... - 12/31/2007 3:48:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady Ellen..... if things are so good elsewhere, why are so many eastern Europeans rushing to the UK ?  Even the governments own figures admit the numbers are far larger than ever expected, and placing a strain on resources.



The east and central Europeans are coming here because the average wage in the Czech Republic (for instance) is around £500-00 per month, whilst here its possible to double or treble that easily. A good thing they are coming too - well qualified, dedicated workers are damned hard to find in this country.

That it has been monumentally mismanaged is not the fault of the incomers, nor of the EU either - but the incumbent government.

What annoys me is the impression we are given (fed would be a better word) that for example, Germany is a terrible place hellbent on conquering us, that France is full of lazy drunks who sit round in cafes plotting our downfall etc. In a word, the international scene of 1895 is what we still "understand" our world by - and this is steadily reinforced by those with interests in ensuring this remains the case.

We have a large economy by EU standards. We generate large amounts of tax revenues - and yet, unlike in these terrible countries whose examples we apparently must not only avoid but resist, we cannot run trains on time or enough of them, we cannot get our elderly and sick cared for efficiently or even that well. And we're all running round like headless chickens with work/life balances so far out of kilter that we're a laughing stock - and we have a lower standard of living to boot, out of it.

Incidentally, my new Czech guy had a back problem in the summer - he was seen immediately, scanned and x-rayed and told he'd be in a wheelchair in three months without an operation - which he had the same week - and then was sent to a spa to recover for several months - all on the Czech health service. Had he been over here, he'd be crippled now and costing the system a fortune. So even in these horrendous "backward" east European countries they get it right where we dont.

The time has come to stop pretending we are an imperial power who can afford to stay aloof and laugh at "Johnny Foreigner" and start emulating those who have a grip on the situation.

E

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