RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone.

RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (Full Version)

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dolceservo -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 5:18:24 AM)
quote: politically, we're very different; continental Europeans have a history of totalitarianism - we have a history of liberalism, so there is a disconnect. I think you are exagerating here northerngent, i really don't see how you could say that france switzerland or the netherlands have a history of totalitarism. We could go deeper into that and define the concept of totalitarism itself following the path and the principles of Hannah Arendt. According to those and according to a large storeography Mussolini or Franco are far from being totalitarians and mere authoritarians. Totalitarism existed on continental Europe that is a fact , but It is an experience that covers solely the Germany of Hitler (not considering the USSR of course). But even Germany itself has expressed politically and culturally way more than just totalitarism. Think about the revolution of 1848 and the experience in Frankfurt. the dichotomy about the british history of liberalism and the continental europe heredity of totalitarism does not convince me. quote: Out of interest, what do you believe to be the political goals of the Union? thanks for asking. some of the political goals have already been achieved. The EU has a wide legislative power, with regulations which have immediate effect, without that the national parliaments need to convert those regulations into national laws. Therefore those laws have immediate effect into courts and help standardize the rules and the application of the law in the Union. Unfortunately most of this legislative work receives little publicity and the parliament and thus the will of the people counts still less than the council in the legislative process. Improving and widening the partecipation of the European people through the parliament should be one of the Political goals of the Union. Another political goal for the future of the union is speaking with a single voice in foreign politics. (as it was contempleted in the constitution signed in rome and as it was decided in the last june in the agreement in germany) This would not be anything new. we already decide our foreign politics together. Except some rare exceptions (war in iraq) , we cooperate and we speak with a single voice on a broad number of issues: bosnia, kosovo, afghanistan, darfur, we have always had similar views on the relationship between israel and palestine and most recently we say the same things about the iran crisis. The bottom line is, we don't need a common foreign politics to have one single view, but we will have one common foreign politics because we have already similar views about the world problems. This happens because we have common values. We are supporters of the international right, we share a sensibility for the environment unknown to the rest of the world and we put an enphasis on human and civil rights. like the battle we accomplished together for a UN moratory against the death penalty.

NorthernGent -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 6:03:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo I think you are exagerating here northerngent, i really don't see how you could say that france switzerland or the netherlands have a history of totalitarism. The Netherlands - you have a point. They have a history of Liberalism; culturally, they're as close to the English as there is in continental Europe. France - they have a history. In the 17th C when France was the most powerful country on earth, the state syphoned off huge amounts of revenue gained from selling French perfumes, porcelain, textiles etc. Not so long ago, Jean Marie Le Pen won 20% of the French vote: an event which is unthinkable here. During the 20th C, Socialism has been a major player in French politics. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo We could go deeper into that and define the concept of totalitarism itself following the path and the principles of Hannah Arendt. According to those and according to a large storeography Mussolini or Franco are far from being totalitarians and mere authoritarians. In the context of this discussion, I'm not sure it's relevant. We're talking about the propensity for state influence over the people; I think its fair to say some of the major players have a history: Germany, Spain, Italy, not to mention some of the Eastern European countries. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo but It is an experience that covers solely the Germany of Hitler You'd have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to convince me Franco and Mussolini weren't totalitarians. With regard to Germany, prior to Hitler (prior to the First World War, even), they favoured state intervention in everyday life in one form or another: in the 1913 elections, 34% of the German electorate voted for a socialist party. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo But even Germany itself has expressed politically and culturally way more than just totalitarism. Agreed, but the point is, they have a history of left or right - we have a history of middle ground/compromise. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo Improving and widening the partecipation of the European people through the parliament should be one of the Political goals of the Union. A "European people". I mean, I'm a Northerner first and foremost, an Englishman second; most of us are parochial and value our town/city/county above the nation. The three main parties over here (all liberal parties) are campaigning on devolved power, as opposed to centralisation. The Conservative Party is using the current Prime Minister's alleged centralising tendanices as a tool to beat him with, the Prime Minister himself belongs to a party that has administered referendums on devolution in recent years, and the Liberal Democrat Party hold devolved power close to their hearts (whilst being Euro-friendly, I'll concede). We're different. Good relations and co-operation, by all means; a common will, unnecessary and liable to generate conflict. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo Another political goal for the future of the union is speaking with a single voice in foreign politics. (as it was contempleted in the constitution signed in rome and as it was decided in the last june in the agreement in germany) I'd prefer the space to make our own decisions, rather than have to beg, borrow and steal, which will inevitably happen as deals are made here and there; you'll have to lose ground in some areas to gain ground in others, by virtue of their being behind-closed-doors alliances in the inevitable struggle for control. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo This would not be anything new. we already decide our foreign politics together. Except some rare exceptions (war in iraq) , we cooperate and we speak with a single voice on a broad number of issues: bosnia, kosovo, afghanistan, darfur, we have always had similar views on the relationship between israel and palestine and most recently we say the same things about the iran crisis. Why do we need a common will which dictates foreign policy and economic governance in order to co-operate in international affairs? quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo This happens because we have common values. I agree, we do have common values. Regardless of all else, the foundations of our countries are christian in nature. It's often said that the enlighenment has its roots in England, France and Germany; it's not an opinion I agree with, it was Europe wide - taking in the United Provinces, Italy, Spain etc. So, there's a certain amount of common ground. Yet, we still have our differences, on which most of us on this side are unwilling to compromise.

Politesub53 -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 6:17:27 AM)
Lady E, with respect on one hand you decry the pay scales in Czech, on the other you say what a marvellous health system they have. This is exactly my point. Life here must be better for people to come here, good health service back home or not. As i asked , if everyone has a grip on the problem, why are we being flooded with migrants ? Its easy to sit and bash the British work ethic and blame Murdochs media, its not easy to admit much of what we do, we do correctly. The WHO rankings on health have us at 18 and the Czech republic at 48, so i am not sure why you think its a better system than ours anyway. Recently the NHS released their own figures and said that 3 times as many Poles have received treatment in the last three years than was expected, putting a strain on services. Much as been said about workers here being unskilled and hard to farm. Blame the establishment not the people. Schools are failing to churn out well qualified youngsters, thats due to the system and not the kids. Brown loves the fact that Europeans come here and work for less, it keeps down his precious inflation figures ( they work for less ). Yet the point that cheaper labour has an adverse effect on the UK is continually overlooked. We should strive to help countries reach the standards we offer, not slip down to their level. I can say that in construction many overseas workers are far from as qualified, as they would have you believe.

meatcleaver -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 7:20:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo I think you are exagerating here northerngent, i really don't see how you could say that france switzerland or the netherlands have a history of totalitarism. The Netherlands - you have a point. They have a history of Liberalism; culturally, they're as close to the English as there is in continental Europe. France - they have a history. In the 17th C when France was the most powerful country on earth, the state syphoned off huge amounts of revenue gained from selling French perfumes, porcelain, textiles etc. Not so long ago, Jean Marie Le Pen won 20% of the French vote: an event which is unthinkable here. During the 20th C, Socialism has been a major player in French politics. Britain in the Napoleonic era was very draconian. Many ordinary Brits were Bonaparte supporters because he promised liberation from the oppressive British establishment which became more draconian by seeing what was happening in France. The poet William Blake was such a Bonaparte supporter and many of his poems, including Jerusalem were anti-establishment. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo We could go deeper into that and define the concept of totalitarism itself following the path and the principles of Hannah Arendt. According to those and according to a large storeography Mussolini or Franco are far from being totalitarians and mere authoritarians. In the context of this discussion, I'm not sure it's relevant. We're talking about the propensity for state influence over the people; I think its fair to say some of the major players have a history: Germany, Spain, Italy, not to mention some of the Eastern European countries. Britain is the most centralised government in the EU, that is a fact accepted by most British politicians. The British establishment has more control over ordinary citizens than any other western EU coiuntry has over theirs. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo but It is an experience that covers solely the Germany of Hitler You'd have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to convince me Franco and Mussolini weren't totalitarians. With regard to Germany, prior to Hitler (prior to the First World War, even), they favoured state intervention in everyday life in one form or another: in the 1913 elections, 34% of the German electorate voted for a socialist party. If you read German history it has a long tradition of small culturally rich and very very liberal and democratic (relative to the era) principalities. The change started after the 30 years war in which the German population (there was no Germany then of course) lost between 30-50% of its population. It had the effect on the German psyche and the thought that this catasstrophe should not be allowed to happen again that startted the drive towards unification. The German national anthen Deutchland Deutschland uber alles, does not mean Germany above any other country, it means Germany above the prncipalities ie. against internal division. Apart from the Hitler era, Britain's democratic credintials don't better that of the Germans. OK, maybe a little over simplified history but to say the British have a rich democratic tradition is a little like looking at history rthrough rose coloured glasses. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo But even Germany itself has expressed politically and culturally way more than just totalitarism. Agreed, but the point is, they have a history of left or right - we have a history of middle ground/compromise. Britain has a history of doing enough to keep social unrest at bay. As Churchill said of the dole, it is worth 12 shillings and sixpence a week to stop a revolution. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo Improving and widening the partecipation of the European people through the parliament should be one of the Political goals of the Union. A "European people". I mean, I'm a Northerner first and foremost, an Englishman second; most of us are parochial and value our town/city/county above the nation. The three main parties over here (all liberal parties) are campaigning on devolved power, as opposed to centralisation. The Conservative Party is using the current Prime Minister's alleged centralising tendanices as a tool to beat him with, the Prime Minister himself belongs to a party that has administered referendums on devolution in recent years, and the Liberal Democrat Party hold devolved power close to their hearts (whilst being Euro-friendly, I'll concede). We're different. Good relations and co-operation, by all means; a common will, unnecessary and liable to generate conflict. British governments make agreements in the EU and then blames the EU for agreements IT makes. The British then blame Europe for decisions its own government makes. Britain won't leave the EU, it will remain a member and blame Europe for its own short comings but it doesn't have the balls to stand on its own or become the 51st state of the USA so it will remain semi detach and whinge while wanting all the benefits of the EU. A rather sad and pathetic position to be in. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo Another political goal for the future of the union is speaking with a single voice in foreign politics. (as it was contempleted in the constitution signed in rome and as it was decided in the last june in the agreement in germany) I'd prefer the space to make our own decisions, rather than have to beg, borrow and steal, which will inevitably happen as deals are made here and there; you'll have to lose ground in some areas to gain ground in others, by virtue of their being behind-closed-doors alliances in the inevitable struggle for control. If you prefer space to make your own decisions you would support increasing power to a directly elected European legislature. The belief that the British somehow get a better deal through its government making deals in smoke filled rooms is laughable. The British government opts out of just about every policy that would improve the lives of ordinary Brits. Having spent half my life living in various EU countries I can tell you, the British way of life for most of its middle income to poorer citizens is shite compared to most western EU countries, that is how much the British government looks after its own citizens. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo This would not be anything new. we already decide our foreign politics together. Except some rare exceptions (war in iraq) , we cooperate and we speak with a single voice on a broad number of issues: bosnia, kosovo, afghanistan, darfur, we have always had similar views on the relationship between israel and palestine and most recently we say the same things about the iran crisis. Why do we need a common will which dictates foreign policy and economic governance in order to co-operate in international affairs? If you have a common market you can't have one member constantly undermining everyone else which is what happens now. You should work to benefit everyone. quote: ORIGINAL: dolceservo This happens because we have common values. I agree, we do have common values. Regardless of all else, the foundations of our countries are christian in nature. It's often said that the enlighenment has its roots in England, France and Germany; it's not an opinion I agree with, it was Europe wide - taking in the United Provinces, Italy, Spain etc. So, there's a certain amount of common ground. Yet, we still have our differences, on which most of us on this side are unwilling to compromise. The laugh about Britain wanting to keep their differences is that the differences tend to suit the British establishment at the expense of the ordinary Brit.

NorthernGent -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 8:23:30 AM)
Good to see you back, Meatcleaver, haven't seen you knocking about for a while. All good and well, over there?

Politesub53 -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 10:54:50 AM)
Welcome back meatclever... In terms of human rights ect. England firstly and then Britain has led the way. First with the Magna Carta and then in 1681 with the bill of rights, upon which many countries based their own laws. Certainly we have had many dark periods scattered amongst the light though. The European bill of human rights was Churchills idea too. Yet i doubt if the original signitories ever envisaged the way it would be abused. Slowly but surely though, things for the comman man are improving. One of my worries about the EU is that backroom deals will be done, with a you scratch my back and i scratch yours agenda. Although i guess thats not too far removed from local politics anyhow. Does anyone see a cut off size, where the EU becomes so large that its no longer effective ?

dolceservo -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 12:57:16 PM)
I have to say i agree with most of what you are writing meatcleaver! I found your comment about the german anthem quite interesting in particular. I don't think that even many germans know exactly what it means. "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, Über alles in der Welt" where the idea of germany comes before everything, the idea of a united germany comes before everything in the world as You rightly point out. It's often interpreted as if germany should be on top of all the countries in the world..hard to contemplate in a time when germany didn't exist at all. quote: If you have a common market you can't have one member constantly undermining everyone else which is what happens now. You should work to benefit everyone I totally agree with that. Millions of people share the same feeling on continental Europe. If most of the countries of the Union want more integration and the UK alone opposes it, then it should have the coherence and the sensibility to back out and stand alone and not try to slow down the integration of the others. If that happened however it would be a sad day for the UK and for Europe. I think the Uk is way more similar to other countries in Europe than to any other country in the world, including the US. The economical and social differences that you pointed out before NorthernGent are dicreasing i believe. Check the new policy of Sarkozy with the trade unions for example, or the policy of few years ago of Aznar in Spain and check the reforms and liberalization that some would like to do in Italy or in Germany. In some periods of history it's necessary to stop looking at the past. We should dare to change, create new forms to express the democratic will and new forms of representation. The EU that exists and the EU that will come is not a national-state (an obsolete product of the XVII century) or a continental super state, but is a form of representation that doesn't exist anywhere on this world but here(and some abroad already envy and try to copy...see the south American Mercosur) , that will speak with a single voice abroad but at the same time cooperates and will cooperate with the existing national organs that will continue to preserve those differences that made us conquer the world.

Politesub53 -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 1:10:05 PM)
Dolceservo, the Allies were probably responsible for demonising the words of the German anthem during and after the war. What form of voting would you say was best ? proportional so each mewmber has a say pro rata to its population. Or one member one vote were smaller member countries, such as Malta get an equal say to the larger nations ? My own view is proportional representation is best. The sooner our own elections are run that way the better too.

LadyEllen -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (12/31/2007 1:44:56 PM)
Hi PS53 I didnt decry the lower wages in Czech - they are a fact of life there and everything that one needs is comparatively cheaper to buy there than here, so that a half of a UK wage is more than enough to live well. The easterners come here because, as long as they share expenses such as housing, they can earn comparatively more and send / take home a fair sum that they'd never have accumulated working in their home countries. Were it not for my children being here, I'd go live there and be very well off indeed. From my experience of talking to immigrants here, and expats over there - the quality of life is much better over there too (not the quantities of life so much though - but then thats one of our problems, measuring life by acquisitions). This is why I dont think most will choose to stay here long term as paupers working long hours, when they can return home wealthy and return to a better quality of life. The thing is, on the health service (and I only have information on the Czech service, not other east European countries), my new guy was treated immediately and had a totally unexpected spa stay thrown in too. Compared to here, they clearly have a superior system by this example - and indeed talking to friends over there they cannot believe we have to wait months to see a consultant. On the WHO scoring system - one would have to know the criteria by which the league table was produced to comment further, but from recurrent anecdotal evidence, I wouldnt say we were ahead of them. Youre right about the strain on our services though - the government has totally mismanaged the impact of immigration throughout all public services, and at a time when in the health service particularly we are under strain from the very aging population for which we supposedly require immigration. And youre further right that our governments for decades have totally failed to plan ahead for our today and are still failing to act to resolve the problems that have been in the pipeline for so long. The problem I believe is that we are beholden as a country not to the people but to the financial services industry on which we rely, and which requires the situation to have been produced and to be continued. When we work the longest hours in Europe, when our productivity is so poor, when our lives are measured by our success in acquiring the mock Tudor 4 bed with double garage, when we spend billions in taxation and still cannot produce adequate public services, I wonder why we are so reluctant to take advice from those who can achieve the opposite? E

NorthernGent -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 5:56:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Britain in the Napoleonic era was very draconian. Many ordinary Brits were Bonaparte supporters because he promised liberation from the oppressive British establishment which became more draconian by seeing what was happening in France. The poet William Blake was such a Bonaparte supporter and many of his poems, including Jerusalem were anti-establishment. 1) You'd have to elaborate on "draconian" relative to other nations. 2) English politics in the late 18th century was enthused with the principle of 'voluntary'; it follows that the French taking over their government through means of force was not an aspiration mirrored in England. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Britain is the most centralised government in the EU, that is a fact accepted by most British politicians. The British establishment has more control over ordinary citizens than any other western EU coiuntry has over theirs. Can you elaborate on your measure for centralised and control? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver If you read German history it has a long tradition of small culturally rich and very very liberal and democratic (relative to the era) principalities. The change started after the 30 years war in which the German population (there was no Germany then of course) lost between 30-50% of its population. It had the effect on the German psyche and the thought that this catasstrophe should not be allowed to happen again that startted the drive towards unification. The German national anthen Deutchland Deutschland uber alles, does not mean Germany above any other country, it means Germany above the prncipalities ie. against internal division. Apart from the Hitler era, Britain's democratic credintials don't better that of the Germans. OK, maybe a little over simplified history but to say the British have a rich democratic tradition is a little like looking at history rthrough rose coloured glasses. 1) Granted, Germany was always a problem for the papacy and Luther promoted the 'all men are equal' doctrine during the reformation, but although he advocated redirecting power away from institutions towards individuals, he soon forgot his principles in order to enforce the doctrine. I'll concede that Germany has a history of producing individuals who don't conform to the values of the day, but in terms of their political framework in modern times, they have a history enthused with the spirit of 'drilled', in contrast to our spirit of 'voluntary'. Apart from Hitler's era? Here's another era - the mid 19th C - the middle classes held little political power in Germany at that time; Germany was authoritarian in approach, rather than democratic. 2) You may find this comparison between laws of citizenship interesting: anyone born in England to legally resident parents can become a citizen; in Germany, immigrants trying to formalise their status are waiting up to 15 years before they can even begin to apply for citizenship, and years more to obtain it. German officialdom still clings to the belief that nationality is a question of blood - you could have lived in Outer-Mongolia all of your life, but if you have the name Muller or Schmidt, you can aquire a German passport at once. I think you'll agree that citizenship based on genetics is a conservative approach, in contrast to our liberal approach, which brings us back to my original point. 3) A few years prior to Tony Blair's christian mission to hand out English pills around the world, the Muslim Council of Britain were declaring there is no better place in the world to be a Muslim - for various reasons, but top of the pile was the ability to laugh at ourselves - meaning they feel we generally don't have delusions of cultural superiority which will lead to serious problems between groups. I think it's an indication of our liberal approach. When did you ever see groups of Neo Nazis marching 'round England attacking immigrants? We both know it still exists in Germany today. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Britain won't leave the EU, it will remain a member and blame Europe for its own short comings but it doesn't have the balls to stand on its own or become the 51st state of the USA so it will remain semi detach and whinge while wanting all the benefits of the EU. A rather sad and pathetic position to be in. Statesmanship. That's what governments do - they forge alliances. Why on earth would we want to be the 51st state of the US? We share some common values with the Americans, but many differences - ditto the continental Europeans. Edited for spelling

NorthernGent -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 6:34:50 AM)
Another point to consider: The National Front held a march in Sunderland a couple of years back. They chose Sunderland because it has the highest rate of unemployment in England, with the expectation being they could garner some serious support for their cause. In the event, they attracted the support of 50 people - I mean, 50 of them on a march - more people turned out to laugh at them. Contrast this with East Germany in areas of high unemployment, e.g. Leipzig, Dresden etc, their version of the National Front attracts far, far more support.

LadyEllen -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 7:22:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Another point to consider: The National Front held a march in Sunderland a couple of years back. They chose Sunderland because it has the highest rate of unemployment in England, with the expectation being they could garner some serious support for their cause. In the event, they attracted the support of 50 people - I mean, 50 of them on a march - more people turned out to laugh at them. Contrast this with East Germany in areas of high unemployment, e.g. Leipzig, Dresden etc, their version of the National Front attracts far, far more support. and yet, when one scratches the surface of the average Murdoch reading member of the public here - one finds exactly the same ideas and ideals NG. The papers wouldnt sell after all, and be the market leaders, if people didnt like to read about how awful these damned foreigners (of all sorts) are? maybe that is our principle difference? that we choose to be far more civilised about it, not mentioning it in polite company? or, that we're far too cowardly to express what we truly think for fear of offending those we really would prefer to not have in our world? and before you bother to point out how liberal and nice we are - your very tirades against the horrors of Germany and the Germans tell their own tale, dont you think? your very ideas as to why we cant possibly muck in with others, regardless of how similar we are, speak of the innate values we hold in common with them but cant acknowledge because after all, we're nice, upstanding gentlefolk here in Britain and nothing like those awful foreigners? far easier to talk about "the froggies", "the krauts" etc and transfer all the nasty feelings we have and that we know we have, onto them, than to express them ourselves. E

NorthernGent -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 7:34:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen and before you bother to point out how liberal and nice we are - your very tirades against the horrors of Germany and the Germans tell their own tale, dont you think? your very ideas as to why we cant possibly muck in with others, regardless of how similar we are, speak of the innate values we hold in common with them but cant acknowledge because after all, we're nice, upstanding gentlefolk here in Britain and nothing like those awful foreigners? far easier to talk about "the froggies", "the krauts" etc and transfer all the nasty feelings we have and that we know we have, onto them, than to express them ourselves. E Hi Ellen, 'an excellent summation of this thread - the cheetah engine must be running low on fuel.

dolceservo -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 7:59:43 AM)
I hope you spent a good new year's eve northerngent. I found a short but interesting link about the right wing movements in Germany: http://www.politik.uni-mainz.de/ereps/download/germany_overview.pdf The NPD except for a short period right after its foundation ( in the sixties they did not yet embrace totally Racist and anti immigration ideas ) after the elections of 1969, after taking a more radical position on nazism this party only got very very few votes. They only gained more consensus especially after the Fall of the Berlin wall, when many east germans fed up with the former DDR regime and disappointed by the new unified state that failed (from their perspective) to give the wealth and prosperity they hoped to gain right away, started shifting their votes to such populist and right wing oriented parties. Having lived in leipzig for about a year myself I think that the majority of Germans now are one of the most respectful, open minded and sensible ( not just to other cultures but also to the environmentalist cause) people of the world. Considering what this country has also suffered with one third of the country being ruled by puppets of moscow. Considering that the dominant culture is, as i described above, one of the most liberal of the world, then i would simply apply the action-reaction principle to explain the existance of such political minorities in Germany. These are thus irrational reactions of a minority that was frustrated by the comunist rule and feels itself not represented in a country where anything that reminds even minimally the right-extermist ghosts of the past is considered taboo by the majority of the population. quote: they have a history enthused with the spirit of 'drilled', in contrast to our spirit of 'voluntary'. Apart from Hitler's era? Here's another era - the mid 19th C - the middle classes held little political power in Germany at that time; Germany was authoritarian in approach, rather than democratic. In the second reich the Reichstag was the main legislative body. This institution was democratically elected every 3 years, with all men over the age of 25 having the right to vote. This happened in 1871. In the United kingdom the reform act of 1867 gave the right to vote to about 30% of the adult Male population. In addition to that the Germans under Bismark and for the whole duration of the second reich enjoyed the best welfare system of the world, one that the British miners or steel workers of the late XIX could only dream of. I wonder if the british spirit of "voluntary" in contrast to the the german spirit of "drilled" could also be extended to the british policies towards the colonies. I doubt that Michael Collins or Eamon De Valera would have described as liberal the policies of the British towards Ireland between 1916 and 1922. All European powers have their dark history, one merit of the EU is also the fact that we can discuss about the past being sure that those things will never happen again. quote: What form of voting would you say was best ? hello polite sub , maybe proportional respects more clearly the will of the people but if you saw the confusion that the proportional system creates here in italy after an election that ends up with a tie, maybe you would not be so sure to prefer proportional.

LadyEllen -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 8:32:09 AM)
cant quite work that out NG was that an ad felinem response? E

Politesub53 -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 9:59:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen and yet, when one scratches the surface of the average Murdoch reading member of the public here - one finds exactly the same ideas and ideals NG. The papers wouldnt sell after all, and be the market leaders, if people didnt like to read about how awful these damned foreigners (of all sorts) are? maybe that is our principle difference? that we choose to be far more civilised about it, not mentioning it in polite company? or, that we're far too cowardly to express what we truly think for fear of offending those we really would prefer to not have in our world? and before you bother to point out how liberal and nice we are - your very tirades against the horrors of Germany and the Germans tell their own tale, dont you think? your very ideas as to why we cant possibly muck in with others, regardless of how similar we are, speak of the innate values we hold in common with them but cant acknowledge because after all, we're nice, upstanding gentlefolk here in Britain and nothing like those awful foreigners? far easier to talk about "the froggies", "the krauts" etc and transfer all the nasty feelings we have and that we know we have, onto them, than to express them ourselves. E Lady E although you are correct that many people moan about immigrants, those same people ( yes the sun readers ect ) are the first to takle right wing violence. This goes right back to the battle of Cable Street when the working class stood against Mosley. The government refused to ban the march and 3,000 or so Blackshirts turned up, only to be met by some 300,000 working class demonstrators. Considering this was just after the depression and being poor meant exactly that, this must prove that the majority of people here are tolerent. I`m suprised that you assume that anyone who buys one of Murdochs papers, automatically agrees with all of the content. I am sure you are not silly enough to believe every article in whichever paper you buy is true ? I buy the Sun because the sports section is very good and it also folds up and fits inside my jacket. Ironically its printed just half a mile from the spot where the working class stemmed fascism. As for talking about the Froggies and the Krauts, i suspect the same happens in reverse

meatcleaver -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 10:45:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Good to see you back, Meatcleaver, haven't seen you knocking about for a while. All good and well, over there? quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Welcome back meatclever... Hi NG, Politesub. Hope you had a good xmas and New Year. I'm very very busy at the moment and rarely home which is why I haven't been around,. That and being monitored takes away any incentive to post because one can't debate, the thread has moved on before one can reply properly.

LadyEllen -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 1:19:58 PM)
It was impression PS53, that the resistance to the British fascists was generated by the British socialists, who also relied on the same poverty and poor conditions for their existence and appeal? The only difference between the two are/were in the targets of their intolerance - the socialists are/were just as intolerant of the privileged classes after all. I'm also not too sure that the east end of London might really provide a microcosm of the UK, being the area settled by the very immigrants against whom the fascists were levelled. As for the content of Murdoch's papers, I'm disappointed and depressed that anyone would buy them, let alone read them - and one would ask why anyone would choose to buy a newspaper with whose sentiments one was not in accord, aside from use as firelighting material perhaps, or in the case of intellectuals perhaps, to monitor their reporting. It would be like eating a food one didnt like - and one as bereft of nutrition as these newspapers are bereft of integrity and honesty in their reporting. I stopped buying newspapers a long time ago incidentally, because I found them to be so unworth my time. And yes, of course others call us names and stereotype us - this is a function of basic human thought by means of the same mechanism we're using - projecting all the nastiness we refuse to acknowledge in ourselves onto others. But the point is the basic nature of it, which appeals to a mass audience when around half the population is so restricted in their awareness and thought processes that they will suck up exactly what they wish to hear - and so sells newspapers. I'm an intellectual elitist in case it hasnt been noted previously. If it were up to me, the red tops would be banned tomorrow, and the writing and editing staff of their Sunday versions machine gunned shortly thereafter. I see no value in allowing the low brow mass appeal of the titillations they provide to be continued, when we are meant to be progressing society - albeit that I do perceive the reasons why said appeal is so wide and allowed to continue. E

Politesub53 -> RE: European leaders hail expansion of passport-free Schengen zone. (1/1/2008 2:05:22 PM)
Lady E, due to the London docks, that part of the city has always housed newcomers to the area. That said, they have always mingled with the existing population. The latest wave of immigrants always being considered outsiders by the previous wave. The area itself has been populated for the last 2000 years, as has the area due south of London Bridge. You are right in that part of the opposition were the communist workers party, but most of it was from locals. I am glad you stopped reading the red tops ages ago, yet still know whats inside. These days the Sun is full of tips on Origami and flower arranging, with never a mention of immigration. Last week they had several days on Feng Shui. This means when i have read the paper, not only can i build paper aeroplanes, i can land them in the correct spot for perfect harmony. Would i lie to you ? [8D]

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