religious or not? (Full Version)

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SeeksOnlyOne -> religious or not? (12/27/2007 5:49:34 AM)

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2007/dec/21/kwanzaa-celebration-county-commission-chambers-pro/



hisannabelle -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 6:22:46 AM)

technically it's not religious; it's a mostly black american celebration of african history and ancestry. it was created in the 60s and doesn't really have religious roots in african or western religions (although it does have roots in some african traditions). according to the man who invented the celebration, it's meant to be a celebration of our common humanity, so everyone should be able to partake, but considering that it's based in africa, i can see why those who trace their ancestry back to other cultures may not want to partake. personally i think it's a beautiful celebration, and the principles that are celebrated are wonderful and could definitely apply to everyone. but people want to celebrate what is culturally acceptable to them - so it's alienating to pick one specific celebration, in my opinion. i don't understand why they can't just have a generic winter celebration - or no celebration at all - rather than picking a specific celebration that's going to privilege one group of people who celebrate it over another who doesn't, regardless of whether that group is religious.

annabelle.



TMaster2 -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 6:31:32 AM)

very well said, annabelle



SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 8:27:57 AM)

i agree annabelle......i think, if you think about it, any religion is cultural in some ways...i just think this sets a bad precedent and theres gonna be hell to pay in the future.

time will tell i reckon, it always does.



Alumbrado -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 8:38:45 AM)

Doesn't matter if it is 'technically religious' or not.

It is billed as an alternative to the European cultural celebration of Christmas and the County banned a Christmas party while allowing a Kwanzaa party on government property. 

Banning one group while allowing access to its declared alternative, is unequal access, any way you slice it.  

quote:

  this case. For here, one can and should make a distinction between one's specific religion and one's general culture in which that religion is practiced. On one hand, Christmas is a religious holiday for Christians, but it is also a cultural holiday for Europeans. Thus, one can accept and revere the religious message and meaning but reject its European cultural accretions of Santa Claus, reindeer, mistletoe, frantic shopping, alienated gift-giving, etc.
This point can be made by citing two of the most frequent reasons Christian celebrants of Kwanzaa give for turning to Kwanzaa. The first reason is that it provides them with cultural grounding and reaffirmation as African Americans. The other reason is that it gives them a spiritual alternative to the commercialization of Christmas and the resultant move away from its original spiritual values and message.

Here it is of value to note that there is a real and important difference between spirituality as a general appreciation for and commitment to the transcendent, and religion which suggests formal structures and doctrines. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, but a cultural one with an inherent spiritual quality as with all major African celebrations.  

http://web.archive.org/web/20060707231135/http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/faq.shtml#10



hisannabelle -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 12:57:14 PM)

greetings alumbrado,

that's what i said. the question, however, was whether kwanzaa is religious or not. it is not.

respectfully,
annabelle.



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 12:59:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

technically it's not religious; it's a mostly black american celebration of african history and ancestry. it was created in the 60s and doesn't really have religious roots in african or western religions (although it does have roots in some african traditions). according to the man who invented the celebration, it's meant to be a celebration of our common humanity, so everyone should be able to partake, but considering that it's based in africa, i can see why those who trace their ancestry back to other cultures may not want to partake. personally i think it's a beautiful celebration, and the principles that are celebrated are wonderful and could definitely apply to everyone. but people want to celebrate what is culturally acceptable to them - so it's alienating to pick one specific celebration, in my opinion. i don't understand why they can't just have a generic winter celebration - or no celebration at all - rather than picking a specific celebration that's going to privilege one group of people who celebrate it over another who doesn't, regardless of whether that group is religious.

annabelle.

Props to annabelle. I couldn't have said it better myself.

And let's get a inclusive celebration so I can create something kinky with it!

Z-



hisannabelle -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:01:50 PM)

thank you daddy z! as the resident religion major/addict, i'll gladly devise a celebration for you to dirty up, but only if i get to be the whipping girl ;) (or at least one of them.)



Alumbrado -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:08:42 PM)

Well, isn't the religious aspect of this case pretty much a red herring?  [;)] 

(And I'm sure that there is a good discussion to be had about whther the trappings of religion make something a Twue Religion or not).


What Kwanzaa claims to be is a celebration of the difference between those of European descent and those of African descent. Should it be OK for the government to deny equal access to one group based on where their ancestors came from?



hisannabelle -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:12:04 PM)

greetings alumbrado,

as i said twice now, and will repeat, no, it should not be okay.

but the original poster was asking whether kwanzaa was religious or not, so i'm assuming that that was the point of the thread, in which case i'm guessing that it's an important question at least to that poster - not a red herring. at any rate, it was the question that started the thread, so it was the question i chose primarily to answer. my comments on the inequality of the situation were very much present if you read my post, but secondary, because the thread is about whether it was religious.

respectfully,
annabelle.



Alumbrado -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:18:34 PM)

If it has successfully derailed conversation about whether or not it is OK to exclude a certain group of citizens from government property by musing about the definiton of an abstract and irrelevant concept, then yes, it is a red herring.

And I fail to see how your unsupported assertion that it is not a religion carries any weight in that discussion... it isn't a Twue Religion because you say so?  Pardon me for being skeptical.

Maybe you should contact these folks and enlighten them as to the error of their thinking.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss16/gunn.shtml#Heading91




hisannabelle -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:23:42 PM)

greetings alumbrado,

no, kwanzaa is not a religious celebration, because, well, it isn't. it doesn't come out of a religious tradition. the people who participate in it do not belong to the same religious tradition. the purpose and content of the celebration is not specific to a religious tradition. it is not a religious celebration.

i'm not here to debate kwanzaa with you. the original poster asked a question - whether kwanzaa is religious or not. it is not religious. i explained why it is not considered religious in and of itself by the people who began it and by the general population today. i don't celebrate kwanzaa and i do not practice any traditions associated with it, so personally, it's of no import to me whether you disagree with what i said.

considering that you and i do agree on the inequality of the situation, and i clearly laid out that i believe the situation is unequal, i don't understand why you're continuing to start an argument with me. i know kwanzaa is not religious. i believe the situation in the article is unequal and unfair. i'm not interested in debating it. i said my piece. why are you so hell-bent on picking a fight?

if you are convinced it is a red herring, take it up with seeksonlyone - she asked the question in the first place. or better yet, considering the inequality of the situation was not the topic of the thread, start your own thread on that topic and debate until you're blue in the face.

respectfully,
annabelle.



Alumbrado -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:41:14 PM)

Last I checked, I was replying to the OP, not to you,  and commenting on the judge's ruling that Kwanzaa wasn't religious, when you butted in and took issue with my making the same point with which you claimed to agree.

If you think that anyone asking general questions or expressing their opinions, or providing factual references so that others can make up their own minds is hell-bent  on picking a personal fight with you , you are in for a rough life.[8|]



Raechard -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:44:46 PM)

Bad news for those people that vote religiously[8|]



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:51:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

thank you daddy z! as the resident religion major/addict, i'll gladly devise a celebration for you to dirty up, but only if i get to be the whipping girl ;) (or at least one of them.)


That's certainly motivation!  As I say in the club culture: Let's build [:)]



DarkDaddyZ -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:54:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Last I checked, I was replying to the OP, not to you,  and commenting on the judge's ruling that Kwanzaa wasn't religious, when you butted in and took issue with my making the same point with which you claimed to agree.

If you think that anyone asking general questions or expressing their opinions, or providing factual references so that others can make up their own minds is hell-bent  on picking a personal fight with you , you are in for a rough life.[8|]

Maybe it's the egg nog but what's up with this? I believe you both agreed with the judge and I too agree that Kwanzaa isn't a religion and while it has good intentions, Kwanzaa hasn't caught on with many people and this is why so many are looking to do public events for it though I don't agree with either.

Z-



SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 1:59:25 PM)

wow......im just hurt annabelle called me a he[;)]........the rest is interesting reading and i thank you all for your replies.

i have mixed emotions about it, but in my gut, religious or not, i feel its wrong to allow it on gov't property and will cause a lot of problems for many in the future.



hisannabelle -> RE: religious or not? (12/27/2007 2:07:09 PM)

*hugs* sorry seeks!

alumbrado, i apologize. i thought your quote of my phrase "technically religious" meant you were replying to me, since i was the one who said it. i'm not sure how your "factual references" disagree with me, considering the quote you posted in your first response itself says kwanzaa is not a religious celebration. nonetheless, i apologize for misunderstanding where your response was directed and for addressing you. my mistake.

annabelle, who is going to shut up for the day since she's running out of feet to insert in her mouth.



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