I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (Full Version)

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Griswold -> I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/21/2007 6:45:37 PM)

Help a brother out here....

I'm reading the reports...the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket...

And I read this...http://channels.isp.netscape.com/pf/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1310&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20071221%2F0456416688.htm&sc=1310&floc=NI-mo1

Now...I read that (with a bit of preamble) to tell me...

The whole financial market has (as to mortgages) elevated itself to....uhhhmmm....shit...
 
And they're introducing bonuses that are above last years by 14%?
 
(I'm sorry....am I missing something?)




Rule -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/21/2007 6:55:10 PM)

Incompetence is rewarded.




TheHeretic -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/21/2007 6:58:49 PM)

       They have to get the perimeter security up to snuff around their McMansions?

      easier link




brightspot -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/21/2007 9:14:16 PM)

~FR
 
You were unaware that HELL is right here on Earth????
 
Look forward to better things[;)].
 
Missy.




Griswold -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/21/2007 9:18:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Incompetence is rewarded.


Thank you.

(That's kinda what I was thinking).




FirmhandKY -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/21/2007 10:06:12 PM)

My suggestion is to read for information, and not simply sensationalism.  Please pay close attention to the bold and italic parts.

Example:



Bonuses on Wall Street Surge 14 Percent
By JOE BEL BRUNO

Sensationalist headline.

NEW YORK (AP) - This might have been one of Wall Street's most dismal years in a decade, but that hasn't stopped bonus checks from rising an average of 14 percent

Sensationalist lede.

Four of the biggest U.S. investment banks - Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. and Bear Stearns Cos. - will pay out about $49.6 billion in compensation this year. Of that, bonuses are traditionally estimated to represent 60 percent, or almost $30 billion.

But that might not sit well with investors who held on to investment bank stocks this year - and watched them plunge by up to 45 percent. Investment houses have been slammed by the credit crisis, and top executives this past week said they've yet to see a bottom.

Further, some of those executives have even agreed to forgo their bonuses this year to reflect the poor performance. Morgan Stanley CEO John Mack and Bear Stearns CEO Jimmy Cayne won't be collecting their payouts.

...

Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein reportedly is in line for a bonus of up to $70 million this year, as the nation's largest investment bank has largely navigated past any mortgage-related losses. ...

There had been some predictions the increase in bonuses would have been significantly higher. However, layoffs and top managers giving up their bonuses have curtailed that.

For the army of bankers and traders on Wall Street, it remains to be seen what their bonus checks will offer when they're handed out over the next several weeks. Top performers will still see some significant compensation as an incentive to not defect, while underperformers will suffer, executives at the banks said.

``If you were to normalize our business ... you would see we had a record year across the whole enterprise,'' said Morgan Stanley Chief Financial Officer Colm Kelleher.

Morgan Stanley, the second-largest U.S. investment bank, reported compensation rose 18 percent to $16.6 billion from $14 billion a year earlier. This comes after the investment bank reported Wednesday the first quarterly loss in its history amid a $9.4 billion writedown due to the credit crisis.

Bear Stearns, the fifth-biggest securities firm, posted the first loss in its 84-year history on Thursday after a $1.9 billion writedown. It reduced compensation this year by 21 percent to $3.4 billion from $4.3 billion in 2006 - and members of its executive management committee, like Cayne, won't be collecting year-end bonuses.

``Compensation levels need to be maintained to reflect market levels,'' said Chief Financial officer Sam Molinaro.

At Lehman, compensation rose 9.5 percent to $9.5 billion, with bonuses accounting for an estimated $5.7 billion. The firm booked losses last week but managed to offset most of its mortgage writedowns and beat Wall Street expectations. Head count at the investment bank rose by 10 percent this year.

The bankers in the best position this year are at Goldman Sachs.

The nation's largest investment bank said Tuesday it was able to chalk up another record-breaking year with higher investment banking fees and smart bets on mortgage-backed bonds. It beat fourth-quarter projections.

In response, compensation at Goldman rose 20 percent to $20.1 billion. That means roughly $12 billion has been set aside for bonuses.

Still nervously waiting to find out about bonuses are the employees of Merrill Lynch & Co. The nation's largest brokerage won't report fourth-quarter results until January, and there has been some speculation newly appointed CEO John Thain might shake up the bonus structure.

...



Ok, here then are the facts:

1.  Some firms did better than others.
2. The ones who avoided the "sub prime" and "credit crunch" problems seem to have done very well, and are paying better bonuses.
3.  Those who did not avoid the "sub prime" and "credit crunch" have cut bonuses.
4.  Even those who had "sub prime" and "credit crunch" issues did very well, otherwise, and their bonuses in those parts of their business reflect this.
5.  Lots of bonuses have not yet been paid, so the sensationalist headline and lede are not facts.

Doesn't look to me, really, that it's fair to say "Imcompetence is rewarded".

Firm





Zensee -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 1:14:21 AM)

The sub-prime fiasco was this decade's Tulip Mania / South Sea Bubble etc. etc..

For the uninitiated wanting a brief introduction to this all to frequent and apparently un-learnable lesson, I'd recommend "
A Short History of Financial Euphoria" by John Kenneth Galbraith." (JKG should be require reading for anybody seeking federal office.)

In short, once or twice in every generation, someone starts a buzz that propels a fragile, fraudulent, imaginary or clearly worthless commodity to dizzying heights of speculative madness (the Crash leading to the Great Depression being the most memorable in recent history). The High Tech Bubble, The Dot Com Bubble are more recent and less damaging examples.

Observing from a moderate distance the symptoms and signs are pretty clear but for the people riding the greed train all that is apparent is the ever faster blur of promises follwed by the even faster approach of doom. The ensuing panic always damages the economy and hurts people in no way responsible. Promises are made to never be fooled again... until the next time.

And nobody deserves a 70 million dollar salary, let alone a friggin' bonus like that. No body for no reason. Especially not the most recent crop of CEO wankers making their bonuses by firing the asses of working folks and gutting the industries they are supposed to be serving.

"Merry Christmas folks - I hope you like PINK!"


Z.




Muttling -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 1:56:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

~FR
 
You were unaware that HELL is right here on Earth????
 
Look forward to better things[;)].
 
Missy.




It is very rare for me to say this so I hope you will take it as the compliment that is intended.......

I gotta remember that line!!!!!  




FirmhandKY -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 9:17:21 AM)

FR:

Now, here's an example of incompetence being rewarded:

Circuit City stock plunges on grim losses report
By Andria Cheng, MarketWatch
Last update: 4:27 p.m. EST Dec. 21, 2007

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Circuit City Stores Inc. on Friday saw its shares take their biggest plunge in five years after the company posted a wider-than-expected third-quarter loss from lower sales and price cuts on flat-panel televisions.

In a sign of continuing struggle and market share loss, the No. 2 U.S. electronics chainalso said it may post an unexpected fourth-quarter loss. Fourth quarter is usually when many retailers, including electronics chains, reaped their biggest profit for the year.

...

"It's pretty shocking they are not going to make money in the fourth quarter," said Pali Research analyst Stacey Widlitz, who said the expected loss in the fourth-quarter would be Circuit City's first in at least five years. "It's a mess. Best Buy is nimble and responsive. You just don't see that in Circuit City."

...

The company said it would slow the rate of change in its business after its announcement in March to eliminate 3,400 highly paid workers who investors said were better at pushing higher margin sales and services.

"We are very dissatisfied with our third-quarter results," said Chief Executive Philip Schoonover in a statement. The company's problems "are primarily self-induced and are within our control to improve."

...


Circuit City said in a regulatory filing Wednesday that its board approved a special cash retention award program for its top executives including Chief Financial Officer Bruce Besanko and a long-term incentive plan for CEO Schoonover and other top executives.

"It seems like the top executives are paid more for poor performance," Merrill Lynch analyst Danielle Fox posed the question for management on the call. She asked what kind of incentive plans the company had for its rank and file employees instead.





Griswold -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 4:08:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

My suggestion is to read for information, and not simply sensationalism.  Please pay close attention to the bold and italic parts.


(I sit corrected...valid point).




cloudboy -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 5:04:19 PM)


Comments retracted.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 6:41:40 PM)

Griswold,

Things are often what you make them. I have clients that are having some of their best years, but it came with hard work and the ability to adapt to how things are. On the other hand, I have some clients that are going out of business, because they lived on the gravy train so long, that is how they expect to stay in business.

Things are not as bad as some say, and worse than what others say. I cannot remember who to attribute this quote to, but I am sure someone will correct me:

"The optimist believes that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true."

Merry Christmas! Bah Humbug!




popeye1250 -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/22/2007 9:35:30 PM)

I haven't been in a Circuit City store since they cut their employees pay and I won't go into one until the raise their pay and do it retro-actively.




Griswold -> RE: I'm sorry...I'm missing something here...forgive me.... (12/23/2007 6:37:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Griswold,

Things are often what you make them.


(Actually, that's a common misconception, however, the truth is, there are 11 people who gather annually to plan everything out.  We're simply pawns in the entire process for however long we live, blissfully thinking we actually have the ability to make a difference.  These are also, by the way, the very same people who have quashed the engine design that gets 275 mpg with no resulting pollution, and the ones who make ice cream taste so good and cauliflower taste like shit).

Oh...one more thing.  These people are aliens and live forever.




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