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Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, disco... - 12/17/2007 4:29:53 PM   
LittleWench


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Status: offline 		I read an article on understanding submission by Peter Masters, the following is an excerpt.  The full document can be found at:-http://www.peter-masters.com/understanding_submission/undersub.html#whatmakes

quote:


A submissive gives her dominant control over her. This control extends to inflicting some form of pain, discomfort or restraint on her.
  1. BDSM activities all involve some form of pain, discomfort or restraint. If there is none then it's not BDSM.
  2. A submissive gives control over her pain, discomfort or restraint to a dominant. There is a direct or indirect reward achieved by this "act of submission".
  3. A dominant is one who accepts this control and then imposes or inflicts pain, discomfort or restraint on the submissive.
  4. The "act of submission" is the submissive giving up the control and then accepting the pain, discomfort or restraint from her dominant that leads to her reward.
It should be noted that the obvious physical associations with pain, discomfort and restraint are not the only ones. Equally, or possibly, more relevant are the emotional, psychological and spiritual pains, discomforts and restraints such as humiliation, embarassment, discipline, behaviour modification, tasks and duties, etc. It is not the case that every submissive is "into" every form of pain, discomfort or restraint. It is that every submissive must be "into" at least one.
The two parts that I highlighted in red, are the parts that interest me most, the rest is included mostly for context.
Is there anyone who has a relationship that doesn't include pain, discomfort and restraint (either physical or psychological) that would still consider they have a BDSM relationship?  If so, why?
For submissives, do you agree that you must be into at least one form of pain, discomfort or restraint?  If not, how do you feel that your relationship fits into the BDSM circle of energies?
I am curious about the conundrum, it is said that kinky sex itself does not put a relationship into the BDSM category (indeed it is recognized that sex is not a necessary part of BDSM at all), yet to me it seems that a power exchange relationship without some form of kink is just an old fashioned vanilla relationship, the type my grandmother had.
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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:39:49 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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Status: offline 		I disagree on the principle that I distinguish between a bottom, a submissive and s slave. Why? Because Masters can bottom and slave can Top. I also disagree that the transfer of authority has to incude BDSM. I know a few Ms couples who aren't BDSM.

Master Fire


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:44:30 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I disagree on the principle that I distinguish between a bottom, a submissive and s slave. Why? Because Masters can bottom and slave can Top. I also disagree that the transfer of authority has to incude BDSM. I know a few Ms couples who aren't BDSM.

Master Fire



Could you say then that a relationship with a "pussy whipped" husband is a BDSM relationship, even though neither party does anything kinky?  Is the the femdom and he's the submissive then?

Akasha


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:50:57 PM   
batshalom


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Status: offline 		It is a case of someone writing the "rules" for everyone. It's his version of the truth - there are many others.

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:53:51 PM   
PsyVamp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I disagree on the principle that I distinguish between a bottom, a submissive and s slave. Why? Because Masters can bottom and slave can Top. I also disagree that the transfer of authority has to incude BDSM.
Master Fire


 
I agree with Master Fire and have almost the same distinctions in my lexicon. 
I also agree that power or authority transfer need not include any aspect of BDSM. 
 
When my pet is bottoming, I do not consider it part of his submission as he enjoys most of the activities.   When I push his limits, I do not go overboard. 
He does not have to accept any pain, if it was something he would not accept, he can stop it with a word. 
 
Lady Jag  (Psy)



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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:54:36 PM   
LittleWench


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Status: offline 		I get that, which is why the topic interested me.  I've quoted his one twue way, and in some aspects of his logic I am in agreement, so I am curious to learn more from those who disagree with his comments.  

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:55:52 PM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		Another example of someone who uses the dreaded sweeping generalization of ALL and SHOULD.

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 4:59:02 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		it doesn't HAVE to.....butt would it be any fun with out it?

Jeff

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 5:03:29 PM   
Peridot


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Status: offline 		I disagree.

Domination and submission may exclude Sado-Masochism.

Also- what is pain, discomfort, restraint to some- may be pleasureable freedom to another.

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 5:06:39 PM   
sodsta


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Status: offline 		I think it's very difficult to define BDSM without making sweeping statements. To expand on what AAkasha said...

quote:

Could you say then that a relationship with a "pussy whipped" husband is a BDSM relationship, even though neither party does anything kinky?  Is the femdom and he's the submissive then?


... I'd like to offer an example. I have a friend who got into a relationship with a married man. They fell in love, and, after over a year of this affair, he recently left his wife and moved over to the UK (from America) to be with her. Now, she is VERY controlling... sometimes to the point where I think it's unhealthy... she makes demands... unrealistic demands, sometimes, and admonishes him when he can't comply. He bends over backwards to please her, and does pretty much everything she asks, whenever she asks... and she asks for a lot. This could very easily be seen as a D/s or M/s relationship, expect for the fact that this friend absolutely HATES the idea of kink and BDSM. She's told me many times that she dislikes it... in fact, I think the idea of it sort of freaks her out a bit. I don't bring BDSM or kink up in conversation with her because I know how uncomfortable it makes her. She's not a Domme, she's just a very controlling person, and he's not a sub, he's just a bit spineless and desperate to please.

This isn't a BDSM, D/s or M/s relationship for the simple reason that neither of them want it to be... they don't see it that way - it just totally isn't their thing. I don't think the thought of it even actually ever entered their minds.

However, by the same token, a D/s or M/s couple who acknowledge their positions and are happy to call themselves that may have the exact same dynamic as my friend and her b/f...

I guess, in the end, it's all about what you choose to define yourself/selves as?

< Message edited by sodsta -- 12/17/2007 5:07:18 PM >

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 5:17:18 PM   
LadyHugs


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Status: offline 		Dear LittleWench, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
My comments based on just the snipping of the article by Peter Masters -- I would have appreciated Mr. Masters expanding a bit more, giving what would fall under 'restraints' and other requirements to be explained and fully understood/spelled out and not so generalized.
 
I can understand under the umbrella term of BDSM--Bondage, Discipline and Sadism-masochism;
Have qualities within their own contexts which will be restrictive, give discomfort and in the area of Discipline as a punishment of a tangible nature--it may/will/could be painful as well as masochism--but, I don't feel that in all cases it is up to the standard of "an act of submission" per se--it can be an act of 'subjecting' to the acts physically but, within the heart/spirit there still could/may be rebellion and or just tolerance to get through the physical discomfort, pain and or restraint.  Yet, a play with words--submission can be used and still be correct.  However, I feel that the submission comes from 'surrender' just as much as the physical submission.
 
To me, based on the copy exerpt of of the article - seems very 'corporal.'
 
I feel that the statement that submissives must be 'into' it is a bit excluding.  Not everybody is immediately into pain, discomfort, restraints, discipline and the like but, it is an acquired taste.  Until it is an expectation along with the trust, respect and experiences allow a submissive to find comfort in that zone--it is mere toleration, attempting to please, wait it out, fight through it and once fear of the unknown, the experiences and associations are done and through its course, can the mind allow the surrender as to submit through earned trust, respect and most of all communication and respecting a person's limits as to get from one point to another as to submit, subject, surrender, give up control and exchange the power people have.
 
Personally, I would not make a statement that 'all BDSM activities involve some sort of pain, discomfort or restraint.  As an example, I could have an individual free of any tangible bondage, use bunny fur, sensation toys, the mind and just touch, voice and suggestions and I would have a painless scene. The submissive does not have to be there, they are free to leave--they choose to remain because they will it/choose to be there.  Some can achieve flying-subspace on that alone.  There is no pain, no discomfort, no restraint.  There is pleasure, sensations, and the freedom of mind, spirit, emotions and--yes physically--no restraints.  Other examples would be in role play but, focus on BDSM wise --it can be possible to have someone surrender into submission pain free and the only bondage is invisible --yet exists by will and choice.
 
If one of the two of us isn't having fun, enjoying this process --then something is wrong.  That is how I feel what BDSM should/could/may be.
 
For those who translate BDSM as Bondage, Domination-submission and masochism; the possibility to submit to the submission can be pain free, with the above example as well--many a wonderful and simplistic scenes, are the Doms who caress and transmit 'affection' and 'compassion' through their hands, voice and mind's creativities.  Some will melt as butter and not one finger of pain applied, discomfort seen and or restraints applied--unless you see the invisible bonds between them both.
 
One of my most favorite times in a Master-slave capacity, a well known Master gave the leash to his slave to me and he was mine for a while.  The most fun of all and what pleased me the most was the slave's affection, attending and just being a wonderful companion--to me this is as much service as going onto the cross and having sadistic fun.  I prefer the quiet service and submission in my life of a servant slave.

 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

< Message edited by LadyHugs -- 12/17/2007 5:25:16 PM >

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 5:23:04 PM   
LittleWench


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peridot

I disagree.

Domination and submission may exclude Sado-Masochism.

Also- what is pain, discomfort, restraint to some- may be pleasureable freedom to another.


He does recognize the psychological, emotional and spiritual aspects of pain, discomfort and restraint.
Restraint can be bound with ropes.  It can be told to stand there and not move.  It can be banning you from a night out on the town with the girls.  It can be enforced or expected mogonomy if you are usually poly.  I certainly agree that a BDSM relationship doesnt have to encompass the physical aspects of sado-masochism.

I think the crux of his argument is that without some form of "displeasure or discomfort" that it can't be considered submission, just as without some form of domination it can't be considered submission... and if your dom is asking you to do things that you only enjoy doing, is that then just symbiotic kink, or is it BDSM?

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 5:50:20 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I disagree on the principle that I distinguish between a bottom, a submissive and s slave. Why? Because Masters can bottom and slave can Top. I also disagree that the transfer of authority has to incude BDSM. I know a few Ms couples who aren't BDSM.

Master Fire



Could you say then that a relationship with a "pussy whipped" husband is a BDSM relationship, even though neither party does anything kinky? Is the the femdom and he's the submissive then?

Akasha



I'd agree with sodsta's answer earlier.

I'd say that that is a primarily a matter for the couple to decide.

For me it would be a matter of them consciously choosing that dynamic not merely falling into it because of their personality or behaving in a manner their religion, culture, whatever tells them that they should.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 12/17/2007 5:51:38 PM >

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 5:55:45 PM   
littlebitxxx


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To my mind, submission does not have to include bdsm but does have to include a Dom of some sort.  BD can be part of but doesn't have to.  SM can be part of but doesn't have to.  I am a bottom, which yes should include bdsm.  I am not a submissive right now but I participate in bdsm.  The left hand doesn't necessarily have to follow the right hand in this.

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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 6:57:36 PM   
TMaster2


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Status: offline 		I started to jump in and say WTF!  of course it doesn't HAVE to... but then I started thinking of examples... and couldn't, really.  Even the milder stuff I do -- the tasks and assignments and display time and similar -- could be construed as being some sort of restraint, at least.  Mental restraint, since nothing physical is done other than her having to carry out the task, but without that restraint/constraint, she wouldn't be doing it.  Of course, it might be some kind of pain, in the emotional sense, too.  I bet there are examples that would fall outside of Peter Master(bate)'s purview, and I dislike his steel cage definition, with no room to move, but actually, I can't think of any using the broader concepts of those 3 words.

BTW -- I haven't read what everyone else has said on this yet, so in just a minute I might know of some examples... lol


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 7:00:18 PM   
Leatherist


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 7:04:34 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

For submissives, do you agree that you must be into at least one form of pain, discomfort or restraint?  If not, how do you feel that your relationship fits into the BDSM circle of energies?

I am a masochist. Those who I have relationships with are sadists. S&M...pretty simple to me.

quote:

  I am curious about the conundrum, it is said that kinky sex itself does not put a relationship into the BDSM category (indeed it is recognized that sex is not a necessary part of BDSM at all), yet to me it seems that a power exchange relationship without some form of kink is just an old fashioned vanilla relationship, the type my grandmother had.


I am curious as to why you think sex has anything to do with power exchange?


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 7:19:46 PM   
TMaster2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I am curious as to why you think sex has anything to do with power exchange?



It is my opinion that sex is one of the most basic and fundamental powers and power exchanges in the biological world.  Consequently, it is always in some way involved in a power exchange, unless it has been excluded on purpose by some agreement beforehand.  If it has, though, the "exchange" seems to be more like arm wrestling. 


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 7:30:32 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

curious
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I am curious as to why you think sex has anything to do with power exchange?



Andrea Dworkin had a few ideas on the subject.

Gloria Steinemergy


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RE: Does your BDSM relationship have to include pain, d... - 12/17/2007 7:31:22 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

It is my opinion that sex is one of the most basic and fundamental powers and power exchanges in the biological world.  Consequently, it is always in some way involved in a power exchange, unless it has been excluded on purpose by some agreement beforehand.  If it has, though, the "exchange" seems to be more like arm wrestling. 

Her statement was as follows
quote:

   I am curious about the conundrum, it is said that kinky sex itself does not put a relationship into the BDSM category (indeed it is recognized that sex is not a necessary part of BDSM at all), yet to me it seems that a power exchange relationship without some form of kink is just an old fashioned vanilla relationship, the type my grandmother had.


which is what I based my question on.

It may be YOUR opinon that sex is all about power exchange; but for some, the sexual aspects have nothing to do with the exchange of power from one person to another.


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