Independance or Inter-dependancy?

Independance or Inter-dependancy? (Full Version)

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Ryugen -> Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 4:24:39 PM)
So, I come to you all again with a few more questions. Just a fore-note; if you haven't read any of the threads I've created so far, mine are usually in pursuit of debate and answers beyond a simple "yes" or "no". I hope that if any of my views expressed in my threads in any way upset you or if you disagree with them for any reason, that we can agree to disagree. If I somehow offend anyone, I appologise and please know that nothing I say here is ment to offend anyone. Please be aware that in a number of my questions and statements that pertain to the subject stated in the title contain assumptions that exist for the sake of the questions and to influence the responces. If you would like to discuss/refute any of the assumptions made, feel free. Although I ask that you not flame me for them if you consider them to be grossly incorrect. Also, there may be a number of unexplained terms or sets of words, these are also on purpose and it would be appreciated if you took from them what you wanted and gave them your own meaning in your responce. As for the title, I guess I should explain. From my previous posts, some lurking about the place, and the ever evolving primaudial soup that is my mind, I have come up with a new set of questions for the members of this forum. This is especially spurred by the first real thread of mine which posed the question of whether BDSM was a step backwards or not (I would appreciate that if you had not commented on that thread and felt like answering this question, that you do so on that thread instead of on this one). I have been considering the dynamic of D/s and I guess as well M/s and how it influences human development, both individually and as a species. Now, if you've ever taken a look the sort of values children are taught are important, you may have noticed how it is (according to many) important to be independant and able to handle oneself on their own. To not have to rely on others and gain abilities and skills so that you can fend for yourself are considered important. Is this entirely important and necissary in this day and age and why? Are there other alternatives available to the teaching system and to potential parents as to how best to prepare those in their care for the "real world"? Is it perhaps more important to get to know yourself and who you are rather than how to deal with a stressful situation by yourself? Could there instead be a better social model of dependancy rather than independance? What I mean by this I shall have to explain a bit more in depth. If you know a bit about the brain, then you may know that the conscious part imagines an action/state, sends that image to the subconscious, and the subconscious directs the body to make the imagined action/state a reality. That is something that got me thinking in relation to D/s and M/s relationships. Imagine the D/M as the conscious mind, and the s-type as the body. Admittedly, for this scenario it is more applicable to M/s than D/s, but I think it still has some relevance to D/s. The Dom/Master/Mistress tells the submissive/slave what to do, what they want, and the sub/slave goes about making it a reality to the best of their knowledge. But wait, there's more to my initial question than just this; Now, what we've got to keep in mind is that both parties (I'm thinking monogamy here, but I guess it can also extend to polygamy) in an M/s or D/s relationship give something to the other. The Dom/Master/Mistress looks after/takes care of and supports the sub/slave and is responsible for their well being (to a different extent for each relationship though). The sub/slave looks after/takes care of and supports their Dom/Master/Mistress as they are told to/made aware of/think is the best way (also to a different extent in each relationship). Now, I guess I should go about defining the differences between the care and support provided by each party, although please bare in mind I am having a bit of trouble defining them, but will attempt to do so anyway. A Dom/Master/Mistress is responsible for their sub/slave, the actions of their sub/slave (to an extent differing in each relationship), the health of their sub/slave, and the general well-being of their sub/slave. A sub/slave is a great support for their Dom/Master/Mistress. They provide the little things, like taking care of the estate (if required to or choosing to), their Dom/Master/Mistress's comfort, pleasure, and a number of other things depending on the extent of the relationship. Now, the sub I am going over to the US to collar to make my slave made a great comment to me (admittedly, I do not remember it exactly to quote it verbatim); A D/s (or for that matter M/s) relationship is an incredibly mature setup. It is a purely symbiotic relationship; one party gives, the other takes, both in different ways. This is also something that spurred my posting of these questions. Now, to get back to where I started and how this all ties into the title of the post; Do you think it would instead be better to identify at an earlier age (say, teens?) who is likely to be a dom, and who is likely to be a sub (and for that matter a switch)? Of course, this would require a lot of research before such a thing could be implimented. From the identification, the education system could then go about teaching each type how to interact with the other types and what benefits could be had for all involved in a dependant relationship? By dependant I mean that each party relies on the other for certain needs (both biological and psychological). In this way we could build strength from cooperation instead of individual strength from, say, knowing how to fix a leaking water pipe under the sink. While such a system would need to take into account a lot more than just dom/sub/switch preferences, as everyone is an individual and is a lot more complex than just a mere dom/sub preference. However, putting that asside, to you think such a suggested split-education system based primarily on dom/sub/switch preferences would be more beneficial than teaching everyone to be independant? I greatly look forward to the replies that come from this post and hope that people realise I am not proposing changing the entire education system of the world, but merely questions for debate [:D]

laurell3 -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 4:32:14 PM)
Wow I feel like I'm signing a ten year lease reading these posts. The disclaimers are wordy and unnecessary and aren't going to keep you from being flamed in my opinion. I don't think changing the education system would benefit anyone and here is why. Whether you end up being dominant or submissive you have to learn to be an independent, self-sufficient, human being without any role. We are people, not roles. Roles change, our visions, dreams and how we feel about things changes daily. There is no way to identify who will be what role. We need to determine what the role means to us and our place in the lifestyle on our own, not according to others. There is no way to know who will stay in any role. Education as to what? How would that apply to each partner we're with? Don't they get to and want to educate their slaves/subs? In my opinion, we place so much emphasis on role in the lifestyle we forget to look at the people. That's truly what it is about, finding a person you enjoy spending time with and going from there. Education can't further that and may hinder it.

RCdc -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 4:39:45 PM)
Unlike the other threads you have placed on the forum as questions, this one leaves a little more of a bitter taste in my mouth. It is too full of ideals, assumptions and generalisations - none of which fit our dynamic and on the whole, not many dynamics I know. For one, nothing I do as a submissive is simply 'the little things'. I play a major part of this dynamic. Without submission, domination would not and cannot exist- and visaversa. The acts I am accountable for are not small, little or insignificant (I understand you didnt say that, but the tone suggests it to me). Personally, teaching systems in place today do not give a person responsibility or independance at all. Not even slightly. I am going to assume you are childless - else you would already know that. I cannot go into further details without risking breaking TOS - but sports days aren;t competative anymore. There is no more playing football at the park. Even walking to school is a negative thing these days. Dominants/Masters/Mistress etc are NOT responsible for their submissives. S-types are responsible for themselves above all else. Dominants care and nurture maybe, they stimulate growth - but ultimate responsiblity is in the hands of oneself. When you understand that, you understand the nature of domination and submission IMO. BDSM on the other hand is a different kettle of macaroni. Dependancy on others is a weakness and a cop out in my opinion. As for the question of whether it would be better to identify orientation in teens - no - absolutely not. To do that would be to stiffle growth and change. Humans evolve - constantly - and depending on their environment and who surrounds them. the.dark.

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 4:45:21 PM)
I realise the ideals, generalisations, and assumptions in this specific post seem rather negative and do indeed come across as very provokative against many peoples ideals, thus the "10 year lease" disclaimer [:D] I myself am very much against such an idea of an education system, and I am indeed childless. Although I thought it would make for interesting debate.

RCdc -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 4:50:07 PM)
Oh I realised that, but generalisations always leave me with a bitter taste - and not the good coffee kind either, more like bitter aloes with the knock on purgative effect...[;)] the.dark.

OrrisKitten -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 5:02:31 PM)
To be honest, I cringed reading the original post. The thought of almost scientifically determining who is a Dom and who is a sub (or any other name that represents these ideals) is like deciding who will be taught how to lead and how to follow. It almost calls back to the idea that women should not be educated, and then to go a little further into history and say that "separate but equal" education is acceptable (although it is quite clear that there were horrible and unequal consequences to that). Why would anyone want to teach a teenager to not be independent and not know how to do things but listen to the orders of someone else? And on that note, why would we want to teach any young people to think their word is god and that they should be educated? This is also assuming that ALL people are interested in BDSM and the dynamics that it affords. I know a ton of people who have absolutely no interest in anything BDSM related. Thats their choice, not mine. I know for me, I would not ever support a system where people are trained to be a sub or a Dom. My independence is my own. My Dom does not care for me, we care for each other. As much as there is a power exchange, it exists where and when we want to- any person who understands the concept of a safeword will know that. If there were no safe words in existence then we would be in a state of actual slavery, much like plantation owners and the like. As a sub I do equal house work as my Dom, we share responsibilities and will share the financial burdens that life gives us. It is not in his control and I'll be damned if I will ever be trained just to do the "little things" like housework without making a living and doing my own thing. From what I got in the original post is that D/s should apply to all of life, not to only selected times. Sure when my Dom makes a request of me, I do it, but as a human being I have a right to say no. There is always a right for a sub to say no, and to leave and if there isn't then we tend to term that as abuse since it then goes from consensual to non-consensual. I'm really starting to wonder about the OP's experience in BDSM because if he has any, I am truly frightened. My Dom is not responsible for any of my actions, nor would I want him to be. I will gladly own up to my actions. If a Dom were responsible for their sub, then why would a sub ever be punished? Shouldn't then the Dom punish himself/herself for their sub being disobedient? If the Dom were to take full responsibility there would be a strange dynamic of punishment because if a sub did something wrong, then it is obviously the Dom's fault because, after all, in this model that you seem to be proposing, a sub has no brain but their Dom's word. I think there is mutual giving and taking by both parties in any kind of set up. Submission, for me, is something I enjoy so I assume that would constitute as something I take. Or maybe I've just got it all wrong. A lot of your ideas seem to stem from your own philosophy and a Utopian one at that. These conditions do not seem to occur in the real world (in any of your posts of questions) and I think that shows a bit of ignorance of what is going on outside of your own studies and experiences, which even those I am doubting. It seems that you want to institute Dominance and submission and make it something that everyone must obey, all consent thrown out of the window. Maybe it is just me, but I value my ability to choose to consent to something. My submission is my choice, not anyone else's choice and I will keep it that way, thank you very much.

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 5:09:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrrisKitten To be honest, I cringed reading the original post. The thought of almost scientifically determining who is a Dom and who is a sub (or any other name that represents these ideals) is like deciding who will be taught how to lead and how to follow. It almost calls back to the idea that women should not be educated, and then to go a little further into history and say that "separate but equal" education is acceptable (although it is quite clear that there were horrible and unequal consequences to that). Why would anyone want to teach a teenager to not be independent and not know how to do things but listen to the orders of someone else? And on that note, why would we want to teach any young people to think their word is god and that they should be educated? This is also assuming that ALL people are interested in BDSM and the dynamics that it affords. I know a ton of people who have absolutely no interest in anything BDSM related. Thats their choice, not mine. I know for me, I would not ever support a system where people are trained to be a sub or a Dom. My independence is my own. My Dom does not care for me, we care for each other. As much as there is a power exchange, it exists where and when we want to- any person who understands the concept of a safeword will know that. If there were no safe words in existence then we would be in a state of actual slavery, much like plantation owners and the like. As a sub I do equal house work as my Dom, we share responsibilities and will share the financial burdens that life gives us. It is not in his control and I'll be damned if I will ever be trained just to do the "little things" like housework without making a living and doing my own thing. From what I got in the original post is that D/s should apply to all of life, not to only selected times. Sure when my Dom makes a request of me, I do it, but as a human being I have a right to say no. There is always a right for a sub to say no, and to leave and if there isn't then we tend to term that as abuse since it then goes from consensual to non-consensual. I'm really starting to wonder about the OP's experience in BDSM because if he has any, I am truly frightened. My Dom is not responsible for any of my actions, nor would I want him to be. I will gladly own up to my actions. If a Dom were responsible for their sub, then why would a sub ever be punished? Shouldn't then the Dom punish himself/herself for their sub being disobedient? If the Dom were to take full responsibility there would be a strange dynamic of punishment because if a sub did something wrong, then it is obviously the Dom's fault because, after all, in this model that you seem to be proposing, a sub has no brain but their Dom's word. I think there is mutual giving and taking by both parties in any kind of set up. Submission, for me, is something I enjoy so I assume that would constitute as something I take. Or maybe I've just got it all wrong. A lot of your ideas seem to stem from your own philosophy and a Utopian one at that. These conditions do not seem to occur in the real world (in any of your posts of questions) and I think that shows a bit of ignorance of what is going on outside of your own studies and experiences, which even those I am doubting. It seems that you want to institute Dominance and submission and make it something that everyone must obey, all consent thrown out of the window. Maybe it is just me, but I value my ability to choose to consent to something. My submission is my choice, not anyone else's choice and I will keep it that way, thank you very much. Sorry, didn't mean to scare you. Yes, I have hardly any experience, but I'd like to say that I am very much against such an idea. I realise that the ideas proposed in the OP are very controversial but thought it would make for an interesting debate. Again, I am sorry I have upset or frightened you, that was not my intention. Although I thank you for your responce, it is certainly very interesting. Indeed, such a setup would be Utopian, but it is definitely not my philosophy. I am indeed ignorant of many things, but I hope that my being here and reading what others have written will teach me a few things. Again, thank you for your responce [:)]

laurell3 -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 5:15:40 PM)
I guess what you are missing is it would be far from "utopian." Our differences, our ability to grow together, the way very few on even this forum define their relationships, labels, bdsm or any other thing in the same manner is cause for celebration not education or centralization.

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 5:24:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 I guess what you are missing is it would be far from "utopian." Our differences, our ability to grow together, the way very few on even this forum define their relationships, labels, bdsm or any other thing in the same manner is cause for celebration not education or centralization. My apologies, I realise it wouldn't be a perfect society, but I guess what I mean when I say Utopian in that post is that anyone honestly perpetrating such a system would see it as Utopian. I have to agree with you though, difference is definitely something to be joyful about.

OrrisKitten -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 5:56:08 PM)
quote: Now, the sub I am going over to the US to collar to make my slave This is the part that worries me... That you put this in the context of everything and after stating your ignorance, I think coming to the states to collar someone and make them your slave is... well, troublesome to say the least. I wonder if she is reading this and if you even realize where your philosophies that you have taken from other people and your own beliefs blur because from what I have seen, you present them as one in the same. Through all of this, you seem to be asking theoretical questions that have nothing to do with practicality, and it scares me that you may put just the theory into practice and it would turn into an abusive situation. For someone as ignorant as you claim to be, each question you ask seems to tear down the human aspect of BDSM and I wonder why it is you ask these questions. You have yet to put forward any of your own thoughts other than that you disagree with what you originally posted (huh?) which makes me wonder a lot of things...

BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 6:22:10 PM)
Firstly, let's start by all agreeing that despite what a person believes themselves to be, there is not such thing as an obligate sub or an obligate dom. In other words, no one is submissive all the time nor is anyone dominant all of the time. As such, it is ludicrous to classify people and educate them as if they were obligate sub/dom species. Secondly, no one who lives within the social structure of our “civilization” is independent. We all depend upon others in some capacity. What I take your wording to mean (although this is not the literal interpretation) is that some people depend greatly upon others for their basic needs and desires. In this case, I'm fairly certain that this model of inter-dependence that you speak of is, in fact, what we operate on every day. You mention that people accumulate skills to fend for themselves in modern society. This is absolutely imperative for the proper and successful functioning of society. Imagine the degenerative nature of society should a large number of persons be permitted to simply not contribute. Thirdly, as others have already said, absolutely no one is responsible for another person's actions. Even if a slave merely acts as a mouth piece for their dom, they are still responsible for what they say and do. There is still an intermediate brain operating here and unless that brain has been literally rewired to act merely as a conduit for their dom, it still has free will and thus is still responsible for its actions. Fourthly, I am curious where you learned about this model of psychology whereby conscious thought is transferred and subsequently acted upon by the sub-conscious? Now, I am by no means an expert of psychology, but it seems to me that the mind works in the opposite direction. The sub-conscious acts upon the conscious mind to influence thought and action. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you are talking about action upon intent such as that of the desire to move one's arm, I can assure you that you are not in the least bit correct. Motor function is not an unconscious activity at all. Intent in formed in a very complex manner in the brain by inputs from both the conscious and sub-conscious mind. These intentions are then integrated and ultimately cause activity in the motor cortex. The motor cortex then transfers nerve impulses to the afferent organ causing a reaction (contraction in the case of a muscle). This last part I do not mean as a flame, but instead as an honest assessment from me. I do not have an enormous amount of experience with BDSM and the lifestyle nor am I by any means a worldly man, but I have some concerns about the appropriateness of you owning a slave at this point. It strikes me that you have a lot of learning to do before you should consider taking on a responsibility of this magnitude. This isn't a dog or a cat we're talking about, it's a human being. There are demands that will be placed on you that I honestly don't believe you will be capable of handling at present. From your posts, it doesn't seem that you really understand the D/s dynamic as well as you ought to for this kind of commitment. You are free to take or leave my assessment; I know you didn't ask for it, but I felt obligated to share it with you regardless. I'm obviously not an authority on these matters nor am I your authority, but I wanted to share my concern with you. A side note since Utopia was brought up. A Utopian society is not even plausible lest emotions be completely eliminated from the human condition. Differences between people would also have to be eliminated. Keep in mind that my Utopia varies greatly from your Utopia.

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 6:48:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrrisKitten quote: Now, the sub I am going over to the US to collar to make my slave This is the part that worries me... That you put this in the context of everything and after stating your ignorance, I think coming to the states to collar someone and make them your slave is... well, troublesome to say the least. I wonder if she is reading this and if you even realize where your philosophies that you have taken from other people and your own beliefs blur because from what I have seen, you present them as one in the same. Through all of this, you seem to be asking theoretical questions that have nothing to do with practicality, and it scares me that you may put just the theory into practice and it would turn into an abusive situation. For someone as ignorant as you claim to be, each question you ask seems to tear down the human aspect of BDSM and I wonder why it is you ask these questions. You have yet to put forward any of your own thoughts other than that you disagree with what you originally posted (huh?) which makes me wonder a lot of things... Ah, my appologies for not differentiating. I guess I should respond to my own questions as well then. I think that people cannot be defined or labeled and put in one catagory. There is so much in just one person that any single word could not describe them. As such I think any such education system would be flawed from the beginning. I realise that not everyone is interested in bdsm nor the roles of Dominant and submissive, and as such any such education system would fail miserably. Just pointing out here, I never mentioned bdsm in the OP, although I admit to refering to common terms within BDSM. I would also like to make very clear that I am posing these questions for deep insight, as much as I can possibly dig up, and perhaps random or odd thoughts of others, but ones that will help me understand certain aspects of other things. For me I find breaking things down and finding a somewhat physical application for them makes it easier for me to understand them. These are not beliefs that I am putting forth, but more worries or concerns. I did hope that the title was taken into more consideration and that it is indeed the topic of the thread more than anything else. Think of this as a worst case scenario discussion, something for consideration no matter how far fetched. Yes she has read it, and all the replies to it, and we have both discussed the ideas presented in it. She thinks that discussing the education of youth is a touchy subject and that such an educational system is a horrible idea. Also that she values her independance and knowing how to be independant because then it means more in giving it up. I never said any of the questions posed within the OP were my own opinions, but merely questions for debate. I did say similar things in the OP. I do not consider such a scholling system in anyway utopian. I do not consider such a setup in any way ideal. I realise my lack of experience could cause others concern when I say I am heading to the states to collar someone, and that such posts as this would also cause concern. Thank you all for the advice, I will certainly be taking it into consideration. Although I feel I should add that both myself and the person I am going to see in the US have written up a rather comprehensive contract and have been talking a lot about it. An M/s setup for us would only really be to explore the aspects of the relationship and not actually a Master/property relationship. What we have proposed to each other is more of a D/s relationship except with some M/s semantics and trimmings. She is a very strong and independant person, although I admit me vouching for myself or anyone else on an internet forum does not go far to prove anything to the cynics out there. I hope that I somehow find a better practical application for the topic to pose to you instead, as I'm afraid I have chosen a touchy one. And also perhaps the link that allows me to edit a post, for I have not found it yet either.

DesFIP -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 6:52:05 PM)
The educational system already includes working as a group on projects. My son's favorite was one in which they made French Toast and filmed it. Favorite because they ate it afterwards and it took several takes before they got it right. Beyond that, there was a study done, can't quote the source sorry, of having two ums try to win a game against each other. The winner got a toy. The boys consistently tied, trying to prevent the other from winning. The girls took turns winning so they would get the toys.

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 6:55:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP The educational system already includes working as a group on projects. My son's favorite was one in which they made French Toast and filmed it. Favorite because they ate it afterwards and it took several takes before they got it right. Beyond that, there was a study done, can't quote the source sorry, of having two ums try to win a game against each other. The winner got a toy. The boys consistently tied, trying to prevent the other from winning. The girls took turns winning so they would get the toys. Thank you very much for your reply, hehe, that's certainly an interesting study.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 7:07:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ryugen Do you think it would instead be better to identify at an earlier age (say, teens?) who is likely to be a dom, and who is likely to be a sub (and for that matter a switch)? Of course, this would require a lot of research before such a thing could be implimented. Taking away self-identification would take away a huge part of what it is to be human. We have the right to choose or deny what we are or are not. It is part of our inherent process to pursue the question of, "Who am I?" Through this, we learn many lessons. quote: However, putting that asside, to you think such a suggested split-education system based primarily on dom/sub/switch preferences would be more beneficial than teaching everyone to be independant? Forced segregation is never a good idea in the end. However, I DO think it would be an excellent idea for humans to have communication classes, which include things like setting personal boundaries and healthy conflict resolution, right along with math and reading would make a HUGE improvement on us as a whole. Master Fire

BondageSlaveMN -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 7:10:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam quote: ORIGINAL: Ryugen Do you think it would instead be better to identify at an earlier age (say, teens?) who is likely to be a dom, and who is likely to be a sub (and for that matter a switch)? Of course, this would require a lot of research before such a thing could be implimented. Taking away self-identification would take away a huge part of what it is to be human. We have the right to choose or deny what we are or are not. It is part of our inherent process to pursue the question of, "Who am I?" Through this, we learn many lessons. quote: However, putting that asside, to you think such a suggested split-education system based primarily on dom/sub/switch preferences would be more beneficial than teaching everyone to be independant? Forced segregation is never a good idea in the end. However, I DO think it would be an excellent idea for humans to have communication classes, which include things like setting personal boundaries and healthy conflict resolution, right along with math and reading would make a HUGE improvement on us as a whole. Master Fire These are some good thoughts. I think society needs a face lift really, not just the educational system. And I do believe the educational system needs a face lift, just not the one proposed in the OP.

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 7:29:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam quote: ORIGINAL: Ryugen Do you think it would instead be better to identify at an earlier age (say, teens?) who is likely to be a dom, and who is likely to be a sub (and for that matter a switch)? Of course, this would require a lot of research before such a thing could be implimented. Taking away self-identification would take away a huge part of what it is to be human. We have the right to choose or deny what we are or are not. It is part of our inherent process to pursue the question of, "Who am I?" Through this, we learn many lessons. quote: However, putting that asside, to you think such a suggested split-education system based primarily on dom/sub/switch preferences would be more beneficial than teaching everyone to be independant? Forced segregation is never a good idea in the end. However, I DO think it would be an excellent idea for humans to have communication classes, which include things like setting personal boundaries and healthy conflict resolution, right along with math and reading would make a HUGE improvement on us as a whole. Master Fire Thank you very much for the positive and thoughtful reply, Master Fire, it certainly makes for a good read. I agree that communication classes would likely do a world of good for us.

Dari -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 7:33:43 PM)
What the hell does your post have to do with the difference between Independence and Interdependence? Interdependence occurs when two independent people choose to depend upon each other. Unlike mutual dependence, interdependence can only be an option between two people who are capable of being independent. What this has to do with education of our youth is completely beyond me. That being said, to address your post: this is done all day, every day, in most high schools across the country. They do "personality" tests, and then teach people how to communicate and handle people being around the opposite personalities. Why restrict it just to dominance and submission? People - children and adults - need to learn how to interact with other people. I would have thought this was common sense. Perhaps I missed the original point of the post, though.

Rover -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 7:40:25 PM)
Oy, I don't know where to begin so I'll just begin... 1. Adults assign Dominant and submissive roles to the behavior of children, in the mistaken assumption that it's something more than childish behavior. I think it's dangerous and misguided to do so. 2. There is a distinction between a power exchange dynamic because it "fits" the partners, and one borne out of necessity (ie: they are not capable as adult individuals and require the direction of another to acquire limited function). I tend to see power exchange relationships in the former, and dysfunctional individuals in the latter (not to imply that there are not dysfunctional lifestylers, just as there are in any lifestyle). 3. I personally believe that independence and strength are often fundamental characteristics of both Dominants and submissives. 4. I don't believe that power exchange relationships are any more or less interdependent than are any close relationship in any lifestyle dynamic. 5. I don't think anyone is well served by the continuation of stereotypes and prejudice as exemplified in the OP. John

Ryugen -> RE: Independance or Inter-dependancy? (12/15/2007 8:04:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dari What the hell does your post have to do with the difference between Independence and Interdependence? Interdependence occurs when two independent people choose to depend upon each other. Unlike mutual dependence, interdependence can only be an option between two people who are capable of being independent. What this has to do with education of our youth is completely beyond me. That being said, to address your post: this is done all day, every day, in most high schools across the country. They do "personality" tests, and then teach people how to communicate and handle people being around the opposite personalities. Why restrict it just to dominance and submission? People - children and adults - need to learn how to interact with other people. I would have thought this was common sense. Perhaps I missed the original point of the post, though. No, I'd say you got the point of the post, but I admit I have chosen a horrible application of what I was trying to discuss. I'd also have to say the whole education based scenario didn't convey what I wanted to at all. Thank you very much for the reply, and appologies for the bad example quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Oy, I don't know where to begin so I'll just begin... 1. Adults assign Dominant and submissive roles to the behavior of children, in the mistaken assumption that it's something more than childish behavior. I think it's dangerous and misguided to do so. 2. There is a distinction between a power exchange dynamic because it "fits" the partners, and one borne out of necessity (ie: they are not capable as adult individuals and require the direction of another to acquire limited function). I tend to see power exchange relationships in the former, and dysfunctional individuals in the latter (not to imply that there are not dysfunctional lifestylers, just as there are in any lifestyle). 3. I personally believe that independence and strength are often fundamental characteristics of both Dominants and submissives. 4. I don't believe that power exchange relationships are any more or less interdependent than are any close relationship in any lifestyle dynamic. 5. I don't think anyone is well served by the continuation of stereotypes and prejudice as exemplified in the OP. John Thank you for the reply, again, sorry for the horrid example. You have some very interesting points.

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