RE: D/s and Society (Full Version)

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ghitaPVH -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:39:30 AM)

actually im patiently waiting around for one of Stephanns homemade brews hes whipping up in the offtpoic secition...




Owner4SexSlave -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:40:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

lol..thanks julia...

some of us kinda prefer to go through life slightly drunk..doesnt make us sheep though....at least I dont think so.


Baaahhhhh Bahhhhh...

Some of us believe in religion

Some of us are interested in politics

Some of us are fine with "following"

Some of us in fact get off on "following"[:D]


Is the wool nicely shaven too?  Thank you for making me laugh.




Vanatru -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:41:38 AM)

Owner4SS, I'm having a hard time following your logic, as it seems your points are a bit scattered. If I understand correctly, it's not really about D/s, it's about leaders in society and the general masses. In that regard, I believe along the lines of what chelle said, those that are supposed to be leaders actually have many strings attached to them, they are more figureheads for various political, religious, and social ideologies than actual trailblazers or innovators. It's not unusual that the real trailblazers and innovators are considered crazy, eccentric, or misfits of some sort and are not societal leaders because of it (Salvador Dali and Van Gogh come to mind here). There are a few that ARE both leaders in society AND innovators, but most of them are shot down rather quickly... literally (Lincoln, JFK, Martin Luther King Jr).

There's a dialog in MIB that comes to mind near the beginning of the movie:


Jones:   Humans, for the most part, don’t have a clue. Don’t want or need one neither. They’re happy. They think they have a good bead on things.
Smith:   Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it.
Jones:   A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals; and you know it.
This sounds a lot like what you’re talking about; and when you take humanity as a whole, we certainly look different than we would as individuals. There is an old analogy of people being nails, and the higher they stick out, the harder they are hammered on. It could even be argued that this is one of the functions of society, that by ostracizing those that are too different, it helps stabilize society as a whole.

Another aspect to consider about individuality (trailblazing and leadership) is; we consider ourselves unique (and some maybe even feel innovative) according to the limits of our knowledge, understanding, and awareness. This radius is the real edge of the world for each of us. Some fear the monsters that might lie beyond that edge, while others willingly fling themselves beyond their comfort zone thereby increasing what they know, understand, and are aware of. Such people aren’t necessarily dominant because they do so, it’s because they are explorers, risk-takers, and/or possibly unstable *grin*.

I’m not sure I understand your religious reference, other than I can understand the blind following of dogma would affect how people feel about the edge of their worlds. There is often confusion between spirituality and dogma when discussing religion. Religion doesn’t necessarily pose a roadblock to exploring beyond the edge. Einstein was both religious/spiritual and brilliantly analytical in his mathematical explorations.

You also throw idolization in, and it’s no surprise if such idols fall short, as after all, they are still people with limited abilities and awareness. This also really has nothing to do with being dominant either.

Edit: lost formatting while posting, so I had to reformat.




ghitaPVH -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:44:33 AM)

my Daddy has this saying as a sig line on his profile...I think its hilarious..this thread just made me think about it... (ok, so you got to have some idea for scottish SCA humor and sheep to get it I guess)


People are sheep...and the government is wearing a kilt




Alumbrado -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:48:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

So is ignoring the tired old conventional rules for spelling and grammar one of the hallmarks of a trailblazing 'True Uber Dom?
[8|]


Was that post to me? Because if it was, it was rather not in keeping with the spirit of what I my post was conveying, or perhaps you just hit "fast reply"?



No, you just can't read, apparently.




juliaoceania -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:52:27 AM)

No, you just do not understand how the "reply" system works.




Alumbrado -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 10:58:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

..... My complaint is that some people don't realize the power that a single person has upon many peoples live, be it with their interpersonal relationships, local community or up the larger social groups and levels of people.    The thing is that many people will bitch and complain about something and never take action.  Instead they are responsible for keeping people fucked up in power.  

A leader is less powerful with fewer followers; a leader who goes unchallenged can become reckless.   Now, here is something to consider.   Some people have brought up that some submissive people are in power.   Are they truly submissive or middle management Doms in the scope of social order?  Again this is within the scope of their role in society not at home or the bedroom.  There are people in powerful positions in society that are very submissive when they go home to their Dom partner.    I'm simply looking at the D/s aspects of society and culture.    They can be a bit different compared to an interpersonal BDSM lifestyle relationship. 

 
For instance, the people in the performing arts, Yes they may have many fans that Love them to death.  However, who are these performing artist serving at the end of the day?  Where does the money trail lead?  In reality are they not somebody who's in the middle?   Now on the other hand, look at history.   Was Alexander the Great in any middle management position, or clearly a proverbial Uber Dom?  How about Hitler?  If Hitler had had no followers would he have ever done the things that he did?  Yet, Hitler was very smart and aware of the very thing I am bitching about here on this thread; the mindless mass that will blindly follow because they crave direction, purpose, security and social unity.   Go against the leader and you go against the group type of stuff.

Perhaps, I am being condescending.  Yes, people that sit around and bitch out loud about life, how fucked up the community is, or bitch about what is wrong with politics, religion or the economy.   Bitching like drunken people at bars, bitching about life, having a drink after another drink.  Getting a fix of something to make them feel better about themselves.   Until the next time they go out for a drink.   For some people, Sundays at a church is their drink.   
  Some times, it just takes one person to challenge what the fuck is going on.  This is small example of what I am talking about.  But I think, or believe to be accurate based upon my own experiences.


I used to have this as my sig file, for a good while.

I'm pretty sure he didn't intend it to apply just to BDSM relationships [;)]


"Human progress is furthered, not by conformity, but by aberration."
H.L. Mencken




stella41b -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 11:58:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I love people. I look at common people as having much more to teach me about who I am than a few top feeders. The common person works hard their entire life, raises a family, and they are a spiritual being walking a path.



Thank you Julia... To me one of the most important people in the world is the mother..

Your mother is the single most influential person in your life, and irrespective of who you are and what your relationship is with your mother all that you are, do, think and say is influenced heavily by her.




petpete -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 12:35:18 PM)

i never new this society has superstars and celebrities O4SS.. i would make it simpler and just say each individual D can be respected and worshiped by the s's that have the privilege to serve the them as unique as they are and on there own leisure and desire by gaining experience from others but not necessarily looking up at them as raw models.




stella41b -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 1:02:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

For instance, the people in the performing arts, Yes they may have many fans that Love them to death. However, who are these performing artist serving at the end of the day? Where does the money trail lead? In reality are they not somebody who's in the middle?



I can come back on this, if I may, if only to explain. I work in theatre as a playwright and stage director. I don't have 'fans'.. nobody loves me to death, I the person am unimportant, this isn't something for me about fame, power, money, or being known. All I have is a name, and when that name is against the title of a play and a date, time and venue people who know theatre and who know who I am come and see what is being performed.

Yes I serve, and I serve firstly and most importantly my actors because without them there would be no theatre and my work would just be words on sheets of paper. Secondly I serve my audience, it is for them I write and it is them who come to see the actors who perform on the stage and deliver my ideas to the audience through drama, or comedy, or whatever. Thirdly and finally I serve the people. There is no fame, no popularity (the star system went out of the window during the 'off Broadway' period of the 1950's except for the biggest commercial Broadway productions).

The performing arts you are talking about is just the tip of the iceberg - that most visible 10-15% of the whole performing arts industry - Hollywood, TV serials, B movies, newsreaders, the music industry's top stars, the people who are household names and known to everyone. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

The remaining 85% are people just like me, without fame, fortune, glory or adoring fans. They are people working in theatre, circuses, supporting actors and actresses, bit part actors and actresses, film and TV extras, session musicians, backing singers, street buskers and entertainers, all the actors and actresses who appear in commercials, voice overs, those who make announcements on television, radio, at railway stations, airports, drama therapists, Biffo the Clown who does children's parties, people working on promotions and advertising campaigns, those involved in the massive corporate video industry, teachers and lecturers of drama and performing arts, and many other people you walk past on the street and you wouldn't know that they are working in the performing arts. You can even add to that poets, artists, drama students, and so on...

I also add to this category Pro-Dommes, and for me a professional Dominatrix is a performance artist just like any other. She has had to go through the training, the practice, ahe has to prepare each and every session to the specifications of her client, she has to have all the right equipment, the right clothing, to dress up in the boots, the corsets, the leather and the fetish gear. She works in a studio, on 'the scene' this is nothing more than theatre of one person with an interactive audience and quite rightly in my opinion she charges a fee or requires a tribute for her services. She is not a prostitute, but a performer, and I for one feel that she deserves equal recognition for this from society just like any other performer, irrespective of whether they be an actor, actress, clown or magician. To me there is not much difference between what I do and what she does, especially if she works in the scene at a fetish club or scene event.

You can also add to this the porn industry.. It's the same principle, not everybody is a Dita von Cleese (the name is coming off the top of my head so may be wrong) but there's many other porn actors, models, fetish actors, CP models, and so on. This is a big industry, the Internet is full of it, and I guess many of us who use generic e-mail addresses such as Hotmail and Yahoo! if we visit certain sites receive the 'Bulk Mail' for pills, penis enlargers, films, DVDs and so on.

However I am also part of the media industry.. through my writing. But I'm not part of the so-called media industry which issues forth the propaganda in the media and the press, I would be a journalist but for one reason.. I refuse to follow editorial policies or toe the editorial line, which is why I work freelance.

"You who harmed a simple man, do not feel secure: for a poet remembers." This statement, written by the Polish poet Czeslaw Milosz, is inscribed at the foot of the Monument to the Fallen Shipyard Workers of 1970 which is found in the Polish city of Gdansk. The monument was erected to remember the 1970 riots in Poland under the communist leader of Gomulka, where the workers were pacified by the police and military under orders of Soviet president Leonid Brezhnev.

It's this statement which is the core fundamental principle of what I do in my work, and therefore through my artistic work I serve nobody other than the people. Why? Because I am none other than one of the people, just like everyone else.





laurell3 -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 1:05:34 PM)

OP: Have you been reading the political forums? or is this really about uber doms?  I'm a bit confused.  This seems to be a commentary about society and our role in it with side comments about d/s.....

While the adage of every man/woman can be a great leader seems good, it reality I'm not sure it's true.  Some people are silently behind the scenes making changes in others lives.  Some are not comfortable with leading or being on the pedastal, but do the best they can to make positive changes in the world around them.  Maybe they are seen as following the pack to outside appearances.  However, something as simple as raising healthy, happy, productive children can have a rather large impact on the world.

I'm not a follower by nature.  However, understanding your audience and the parameters which you are currently working under even if you are attempting to change them may seem sheepish, but in reality, change requires it.  Leading requires having followers.  I am unfond of the pedastal.  Even in a leadership role I try to always point out my own humanity.  I would jump into the fray despite unpopularity to defend a correct or even well-meaning underdog.  However, I wouldn't do the same for a fool.  Picking your battles is an important concept to remember.  Speaking out against every perceived injustice is rarely effective.

With regard to d/s, being a vanilla leader can be irrelevant to role.  If someone is an "uber dom" or one that you say is wearing the dom label but "would piss themselves senseless at the thought of dealing with social group conflict and will avoid it all costs", in time that becomes apparent and they lose followers.   




juliaoceania -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 1:24:07 PM)

quote:

I'm not a follower by nature. 


Taken from my profile

quote:

I am submissive, yet I am often unwittingly put in positions of leadership


This is very true of me, others do not see me as a follower, even though I adore following someone I feel deferential toward




Owner4SexSlave -> RE: D/s and Society (12/7/2007 6:33:25 PM)

The real question is, who see's D/s applying to society and social order as well as personal relationships?   If so, how and in what manner does D/s fit into Society on a larger scale?  Are the problems any similar or different to the problems that personal D/s relationships have?  This applies to the different societies and social groups all around the world.  

What does BDSM D/s relationships and Dictatorships have in common, anything?  What does fascism and D/s relationships have in common.  What do bad leaders and crappy Doms have in common?   What do leaders that say one thing and do another, have in common with Dom that do the same?  

Masters that are looking for Financial slaves often get a bad rap on the message boards, so OK.  How different are they from a religious leaders that live high on the hog from church donations?   Strange, there's this whole concept of Doms Guiding submissives, helping them grow as human beings, so the submissibe can spread their wings and fly?  That sounds a lot like the same job function of many church leaders.  There's a creepy angelic tone of similarity here, perhaps it's just the wings.





stella41b -> RE: D/s and Society (12/8/2007 1:21:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

The real question is, who see's D/s applying to society and social order as well as personal relationships? If so, how and in what manner does D/s fit into Society on a larger scale? Are the problems any similar or different to the problems that personal D/s relationships have? This applies to the different societies and social groups all around the world.



I see exactly what you're saying here, but isn't society just too big a concept? I think this is where many people are losing you - society is big, it's abstract for many people and means many different things to many different people. Are you talking about the structure of society? The hierarchies? The power dynamics of the interpersonal relationships found on different levels of these hierarchies?

Might I suggest O4SS that you check out TA, or Transactional Analysis, which is a system of psychoanalytical analysis developed by American psychiatrist Dr Eric Berne in the 1950's? I wrote on this some months ago when someone started a thread on BDSM and D/s relationships being based on role playing, which is true, but this went above some people's heads because they're simply not willing, or don't have the time or inclination to be that introspective about their relationships or what they do. I mean, if it's good, why pull it apart or change it? Why not just accept it for what it is?

I'm keeping an eye on this thread to see how it develops.. I see a young mind, someone and someone fresh, someone intelligent, and know from the past that it's often the new people coming into the community or those who come in and out of it who often have very good ideas and something to offer. But you know, not everybody gets the message, not everybody is open or receptive to the message, it may not be the right time, and I guess a lot of people here on these boards are getting ready for the holidays and have rather mundane matters to think about. This however is just my assumption, I could be wrong.

Human relationships are complex as we are all fluid and change within ourselves constantly, we are all individual. A couple of months ago I ran a drama workshop and I decided to have the participants form pairs, I blindfolded them and asked them to kneel in front of each other. There were about nine or ten pairs. I asked them to develop a relationship or some form of interaction purely through touching each other and uttering monosyllables - not words, just sounds. They could touch each other anywhere they liked, so long as they didn't hurt or injure each other, and no words were to be spoken. I gave them time to explore these gestures, touches, this human contact, and to react as they wished. The result? I had nine or ten relationships which were all different from each other.

But then again we are all part of a collective, i.e. we all conform and we all submit. I have another exercise. Same situation, a drama workshop. I hand out a list of names on a sheet of paper, these are names taken from a telephone directory, and the participants read the names out loud as they wish. People read them out differently. I then hand out a second list.. all the surnames are Jewish.. the font is a traditional typewriter font, and the title on the sheet of paper is 'KL Birkenau II (Auschwitz) with a date... 3rd April 1943'. Everyone I've ever asked reads that list out the same way.. Why?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

What does BDSM D/s relationships and Dictatorships have in common, anything? What does fascism and D/s relationships have in common. What do bad leaders and crappy Doms have in common? What do leaders that say one thing and do another, have in common with Dom that do the same?



Why not just simplify these questions? For example where does D/s begin and end and when and in what situation does it become abuse? Did Pol Pot and Idi Amin practise SSC or RACK? And what of Lenin? Joseph Stalin? Pinochet? Many would argue that the Texas Department of Criminal Justice practises SSC each time it takes a condemned prisoner to Huntsville to be put to death by lethal injection for Texas law is very clearly written in the statutes, but does someone like Albert Camus and Justice Thurgood Marshall agree? Is it fair to define capital punishment as D/s where the State is Dominant and the condemned prisoner is submissive? But was not the condemned prisoner once dominant and their victim submissive? And could this be really D/s as a loss of life was involved? Here you maybe see the problem ..D/s can be applied to anything and everything, it too like human nature and society is living, breathing, fluid and nebulous and cannot be neatly defined, classified and put into neat little boxes. No need to look around you outside in the wider world, why you can just log into Collarme every day and read the topics and threads on these message boards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave
Masters that are looking for Financial slaves often get a bad rap on the message boards, so OK. How different are they from a religious leaders that live high on the hog from church donations? Strange, there's this whole concept of Doms Guiding submissives, helping them grow as human beings, so the submissibe can spread their wings and fly? That sounds a lot like the same job function of many church leaders. There's a creepy angelic tone of similarity here, perhaps it's just the wings.



Isn't BDSM and D/s just fascinating? I mean here you have a community which is genuinely very diverse and runs all the way from the Leather families, Gor right through to the Aristasian philosophy, the period lifestyle and polyamorous relationships and which truly embraces the whole of society with a vast myriad and collection of many different cultures and subcultures - Old Guard, Leather, Goth, to name but a few.

These messageboards are a monument to tolerance and multiculturalism, and you get people here of all ages, nationalities, cultures, lifestyles, beliefs, ages, body sizes, skin colours, sexual orientations, and no matter where you go in this world you will always find D/s and BDSM, even in the depths of the Amazon. They might not call it D/s or BDSM, but there will probably be some sort of behaviour which fits the principles neatly.

Therefore I feel the only right answers to your questions about this lifestyle come from within you and the people you meet, and not from the world around you.




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