Punishment...a new angle (for me)

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MsBearlee -> Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 1:15:49 PM)
I discovered BDSM and specifically D/s about four years ago, and I embraced it as only a newbie can and jumped in with both feet. While I have no problem with just about any of the real-time philosophies…I struggled with ‘Punishment’…and continue to do so. Awhile back, Michael posted something which rang true for me: http://www.collarchat.com/m_1430753/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#1432683 It has been my contention that when a submissive gives over power to another, it is because s/he wants to please him. (Please bear with me; I’m not going to use all possible sexual possibilities here.) I mean, a (normal) adult who gives the promise to follow the lead of another just isn’t going to do stuff behind their back, or to piss them off; s/he wants to please, after all. (Keep in mind please; I am not discussing online stuff or ‘brats’ here.) Michael discusses inspiring submissives to surrender power…and I think that is exactly what happens in a good match. From there, it seems to me that should s/he miss a mark or do something totally wrong…simply sitting the submissive down for a talking to is more than enough. I am all in favor of saving the beatings for fun! Michael tells us his girl grows and the depth of what she will do for him expands to the point he is sure she would do/try anything to please him. Now, that’s what I’m talking about! So… "Why punish?", I’ve asked. And then, I ran into these posts by Stephann and Julia: http://www.collarchat.com/m_1439067/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm#1442101 The idea that punishment can be a tool “for reminding a submissive of her position as a slave/submissive”! Wow… an eye opener for me! Thank you, Stephann. All this time I knew some things were done ‘because We can…’ and I rather liked that; but I never in a million years considered that it was to reiterate the submissive's position. Perhaps that is why so many enjoy humiliation...it is an exaggeration of this act? I wonder. For four years, I have believed as Julia does; “Either I submit, or he seriously questions my desire to do so.” It’s back to that “Of course s/he can refuse…but they'd have to leave if they did”. Okay, so communication IS a huge deal in any relationship I have, but were one to begin saying ‘No’…it would be the beginning of the end. Either submit…or do not. Done. But now… this idea that punishment might be purely an act to put the submissive in a proper headspace is intriguing. I remember once, watching close friends of mine interact. She had been slightly argumentative, he’d had enough; he told her to put her hands on his arm and to “…look at me and settle!” She did…you could see her visibly calm down. When she had settled a bit, he reached up and grabbed her hair and drug her (gently) to the floor next to him, where she laid her head on his lap. I nearly swooned. I bet she tries to be calmer around him. LOL Anyway, this is getting wordy. Can you see how different ‘punishment’ is for me than the stereotypical ‘OTK spankings’ some enjoy playing? Still, because of the couple of threads I read this week…I’ve had a real eye opening. While I doubt I'll ever take a boy over my knee, punishment has a new meaning for me. Anybody else? MsB

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 1:37:58 PM)
This is some food for thought... I will ponder some, and get back to you!

toservez -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 2:04:27 PM)
I have never bought into or lived the if I am truly submissive and love my Master then talk is the only thing needed. In terms of punishment, most punishments whether physical or otherwise will re-enforce the power dynamic but certainly it has been my experience physical punishments also have the benefit of the physical manifestation of the power exchange and the catharsis of penance for the actual infraction. That is what I have always liked about the aspect of domestic discipline. There is spanking for the promoting of the agreement of the way of life and atmosphere but also spanking for infractions. Just because we do one thing for primarily one reason does not mean other benefits do not happen as well. In the end what is the goal of the punishment for the relationship and designing a punishment that works. For example me personally, I have found very clearly over the years that when I do not present a proper attitude that a look or some non physical punishment does much good. For me to fix my attitude what works best on me is something like a face slap or a hard pinch on one or both of my nipples. For me in this specific example a punishment that was delayed or just to make me think about my error or letting him down would just add to the actual problem and not go about fixing it. I do not think all things punshible should be done physically but have found for me that what works best for the overall good of the relationship that my Master needs it in his toolbox.

DesFIP -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 2:10:28 PM)
I have a problem with punishment being used to enforce headspace when there was no willful disobedience. Maintenance spankings, great. Even if they're way beyond the fun stage and I'm crying tears of pain. That would work for headspace. But if I'm being punished, then I had better of done something really wrong. And if I learn from being dragged into his arms not to get upset in the future then what will he do the next time? Punish me for putting two grains of sugar too many in his tea? If it's punishment, then it needs to be linked to serious wrongdoing. It's the word punishment that bothers me here, not the acts.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 2:17:07 PM)
There are things I still get punished for, from time to time, although usually they are small and unintentional infractions. If I have repeatedly forgotten something I shouldn't have, for example, not doing whatever it was isn't the issue - forgetfulness is the issue. My forgetfulness means I am not focused and not being mindful. Sure we all forget things, and sure we all have issues that come about in our worlds that create stress enough to forget things. Letting my issues get the best of me is not pleasing to him, and so I will be refocused. For us, it is a no-brainer that we will talk about what is going on. But at times he will supplement that with punishment. Why? Because he knows what it does to/for me when I feel his power over me, and how it reels me back in, refocuses me, and comforts me more quickly than anything else will. If your kid is running into the street and within arms reach, you're likely to grab the kid and yank him/her back to the sidewalk rather than say, "Please dear, remove yourself from the street as a car is coming and is about to kill you." Yeah, an extreme analogy but my own little gem none-the-less. I am not perfect. I make mistakes. I am sometimes punished for those mistakes because a strong refocusing instantly brings me to that "small" place I feel under his power, and we both prefer me there. I am stronger there and happier there and more pleasing there. All this talk I keep seeing, that compares punishee's to something other than an adult is quite often a misunderstanding of one adult's needs compared to another's. Not everyone operates the same or responds the same to similar stimuli. And being punished should not automatically be translated to being spanked/whipped/beaten/whatever. There are lots of ways to implement punishment if one is creative and knows his/her subject.

toservez -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 2:24:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I have a problem with punishment being used to enforce headspace when there was no willful disobedience. Maintenance spankings, great. Even if they're way beyond the fun stage and I'm crying tears of pain. That would work for headspace. But if I'm being punished, then I had better of done something really wrong. And if I learn from being dragged into his arms not to get upset in the future then what will he do the next time? Punish me for putting two grains of sugar too many in his tea? If it's punishment, then it needs to be linked to serious wrongdoing. It's the word punishment that bothers me here, not the acts. No matter what type of punishment means little for me personally. For me personally, whether physical, a look, a talking to or some non physical punishment does not affect my headspace in a negative manner. The only way that would happen if I thought my Master was not really punishing me but somehow his thoughts were clouded with other issues. If this happens repeatedly or I am getting punished too often thinking I did not deserve it, then there is a problem in the relationship that needs to be communicated and addressed. If it is occasional, I do it/take it and move on. I know I am not perfect and do not expect my Master to be or that we are always on the same page. We have agreed to a dynamic and him staying true to that dynamic is far more important to me then right or wrong then the judging of an event, even if it is physical.

ProfJoe -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 2:38:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee The idea that punishment can be a tool “for reminding a submissive of her position as a slave/submissive”! Wow… an eye opener for me! Thank you, Stephann. All this time I knew some things were done ‘because We can…’ and I rather liked that; but I never in a million years considered that it was to reiterate the submissive's position. Perhaps that is why so many enjoy humiliation...it is an exaggeration of this act? I wonder. Can't speak to the connect with humiliation, but it's for similar reasons that I try to distinguish for her between punishment and discipline. Punishment is corrective and "fits the crime." Discipline is to teach or reinforce ... behavior, headspace, whatever. Neither need be harsh, though discipline often is. With this girl I've only used punishment once. (Prof)Joe

daddysliloneds -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 2:47:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee The idea that punishment can be a tool “for reminding a submissive of her position as a slave/submissive”! Wow… an eye opener for me! no matter how you slice it, i'm still not a punishment person; i dont need to be reminded of my 'position'. i chose my position when i entered the relationship in the first place!

Stephann -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 3:04:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez I have never bought into or lived the if I am truly submissive and love my Master then talk is the only thing needed. In terms of punishment, most punishments whether physical or otherwise will re-enforce the power dynamic but certainly it has been my experience physical punishments also have the benefit of the physical manifestation of the power exchange and the catharsis of penance for the actual infraction. That is what I have always liked about the aspect of domestic discipline. There is spanking for the promoting of the agreement of the way of life and atmosphere but also spanking for infractions. Just because we do one thing for primarily one reason does not mean other benefits do not happen as well. In the end what is the goal of the punishment for the relationship and designing a punishment that works. For example me personally, I have found very clearly over the years that when I do not present a proper attitude that a look or some non physical punishment does much good. For me to fix my attitude what works best on me is something like a face slap or a hard pinch on one or both of my nipples. For me in this specific example a punishment that was delayed or just to make me think about my error or letting him down would just add to the actual problem and not go about fixing it. I do not think all things punshible should be done physically but have found for me that what works best for the overall good of the relationship that my Master needs it in his toolbox. I doubt that there's any mechanic or explaination that would be more concise and accurate than toservez has offered. All I could possible add would be personal experience. The following is an exerpt from a thread I started on Punishment about three months ago: Stephan -------- I remember telling gretchen not to move once, while standing in front of a prepared meal on the stove. She was hungry, and I knew it. I was going to use the bathroom to wash my hands quickly.... but had a feeling. Sure enough, I caught her, like a cat with a bird in her mouth. I think I spanked her about thirty times. There was no need for a 'discussion' or 'lecture' in this case. What mattered most, though, wasn't 'what' I did to punish her. What mattered, was that after I had spanked her (yes, quite aggressively; she didn't end up on the floor over my knee on her own volition) was that I still provided some aftercare. I let her ball up and cry, I checked her over to make sure I hadn't hit any harder than I intended, and most importantly, I explained to her why she was punished. For her, she would later say it wasn't the spankings, but the reminders of her mistake each time she felt it that hurt the most. I could haver probably caned her with the same effect. I think this is the value punishment carries; it allows an externalized reaction, and physical manifestation of the mistake. It takes a vague concept of 'obedience' and gives it real teeth. It also takes that mistake, and sets it to rest. She never forgot that lesson, and never disobeyed me in that way again. But I know if I had not taken 20 minutes afterwards to really talk to her, and listen to her like as the woman I loved, it would have only hurt her.

CelticPrince -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 4:25:16 PM)
MsBearlee, I do not spend much time with the punishment angle, if it is required then the TPE has been breached and time to part. CP

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 4:54:30 PM)
I respect that some people need a punishment dynamic of some kind, and that it is meaningful for them, but it just doesn't work for me. I understand that actions have consequences, but "if you make a mistake, fix it" is more useful to me than sending someone to the corner. I appreciate threads like this one, though, because I have really gained in my understanding of how the dynamic does work. Thank you for sharing your thoughts so eloquently, ladies! I accept that not all submissives are perfect all the time. As a dominant, I am not perfect all the time, either. I have many faults that I work on all the time. I do not want to be Ms Perfect Role Model, and in order to be a person that dishes out punishments, I would have to be. If the person who is forgetful, sometimes late, and forgets to pick up more milk is ME, how much of a hypocrite am I to be punishing someone ELSE for having the their own set of faults? I do fetishize obedience. A submissive who deliberately defies me has to be dealt with, but honestly, if a person is defying me to see what I will do, they are making a mistake. If a person is defying me because they are not a good submissive, then I have made the mistake in choosing them. Either way, I save the smacking for playtime.

SirJohnMandevill -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 4:56:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I have a problem with punishment being used to enforce headspace when there was no willful disobedience. Maintenance spankings, great. Am I missing something? It seems these statements contradict each other. To me, the very concept of "maintenance" discipline divorces itself from disobedience. It's purely to reinforce who has the power in the exchange. I'd love for you to elaborate, because I am a believer in maintenance discipline. Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 6:00:00 PM)
That's not really a punishment to me- that's what I call a leash tug. A punishment to me is very specifically an action taken to modify someones behavior towards one particular model and away from another. An action taken to reinforce someone's inner sense of something is what I call catharsis, reconnection, or jolt (leash tug). Now, a single action can be BOTH a punishment and a jolt- but a punishment and a jolt are very different concepts for me and I use them in very different ways.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 6:10:43 PM)
i am reading Be the pack leader by the dog whisper ceasar milan...and his grasp on this is profound..he talks about an unstable mind and how important it is to stable a disruptive mind, because it effects every one around it.and like LA says a tug or touch with a foot is a very good way to correct an unstable mind. i dont like the word punishment, i prefer the term course correction. and what julia says is dead on, because no one is happy when some one is in a unstable mind (angry, hyper, stressed sad) not even the person who own that mind. calm assertive leadership is very different then punishment...in punishment there is a sense of bad and good.. right and wrong...in calm assertive leadership it is more like "right action" and course correction for the stability of every one involved... make sense bearlee?

AFlyInYourWeb -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 6:49:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsBearlee Michael discusses inspiring submissives to surrender power…and I think that is exactly what happens in a good match. From there, it seems to me that should s/he miss a mark or do something totally wrong…simply sitting the submissive down for a talking to is more than enough. I am all in favor of saving the beatings for fun! IMHO, the key phrase is "...inspiring...to surrender...". I would have to say that every woman to whom I surrendered had the mental agility and emotional strength to inspire me to see them as my superior officer, and worthy of the rank. I believe "punishment" has its uses in training, in reminding me of my "place" in the relationship, and occasionally at the whim of the Domina. Once she has inspired me to surrender, I trust her to have a reason for whatever she chooses to do, even if the reason is unknown to me at the time. In short, I have "faith" in her. I might add that "beatings" and "punishment" may not be the same thing. Punishment may be the withdrawal of a privilige, a spanking, extra work detail, corner time, caging, or being forced to watch Oprah. How we define punishment depends on the tastes of the individual Domina, what she knows about pushing her submissive's buttons, and the nature of their relationship together. Because sometimes, beatings should be just "for fun". [sm=crop.gif]

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 9:05:40 PM)
I wanted to make sure I was clear on how things work around here. I do not live in fear that he will end things if I fail to obey or submit every second of the day. I do not think he will wake up one morning and say "Hmmm, julia just isn't cutting the submissive mustard around here". We just do not enjoy a punitive atmosphere in our relationship. He is not "strict", there is not a lot of protocol in our relationship. I do not have a lot of rules that I submit to. I understand why punishment exists in other relationships... and I can understand that some people feel "forgiven" when punished. I remember my own mom saying "A good spanking clears the air, and sets up the child to know where the authority exists", and she was right in some ways, when I was punished as a child it let me know what to expect, it also helped me to feel that whatever I had done was "over", and the spanking "cleared the air". I do not feel that way as an adult. I also know that burdening my Daddy with my need to "clear the air" is perhaps selfish in some ways. He does not want to punish me, so why am I bringing about a situation that makes him unhappy because I was "bad", and now he has to deal with it by punishing me? I can imagine it would take a lot for him to decide I did not really want to submit to him. It would take more than one perceived disrespectful comment. It would take more than one mistake, and he would work with me to correct my behavior and make it into something that we both could be proud of. He is firm with me at times, but he is not unyielding, strict, nor structured... I think punishment would crush me. Some people just do better with positive reinforcement... and I am one of them... In fact, his views on punishment was one of the first things I asked him about before we met and we were only talking on the phone... it was that important to me to find someone that did not view themselves as strict and punishing... but that is just how I feel... and it works for us.

breatheasone -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 10:04:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I wanted to make sure I was clear on how things work around here. I do not live in fear that he will end things if I fail to obey or submit every second of the day. I do not think he will wake up one morning and say "Hmmm, julia just isn't cutting the submissive mustard around here". We just do not enjoy a punitive atmosphere in our relationship. He is not "strict", there is not a lot of protocol in our relationship. I do not have a lot of rules that I submit to. I understand why punishment exists in other relationships... and I can understand that some people feel "forgiven" when punished. I remember my own mom saying "A good spanking clears the air, and sets up the child to know where the authority exists", and she was right in some ways, when I was punished as a child it let me know what to expect, it also helped me to feel that whatever I had done was "over", and the spanking "cleared the air". I do not feel that way as an adult. I also know that burdening my Daddy with my need to "clear the air" is perhaps selfish in some ways. He does not want to punish me, so why am I bringing about a situation that makes him unhappy because I was "bad", and now he has to deal with it by punishing me? I can imagine it would take a lot for him to decide I did not really want to submit to him. It would take more than one perceived disrespectful comment. It would take more than one mistake, and he would work with me to correct my behavior and make it into something that we both could be proud of. He is firm with me at times, but he is not unyielding, strict, nor structured... I think punishment would crush me. Some people just do better with positive reinforcement... and I am one of them... In fact, his views on punishment was one of the first things I asked him about before we met and we were only talking on the phone... it was that important to me to find someone that did not view themselves as strict and punishing... but that is just how I feel... and it works for us. Ditto...seriously....this is alot like the relationship I have with my Daddy.... He and I are a perfect fit. [:)]

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/5/2007 10:54:50 PM)
I agree with this philosophy. I don't punish. I haven't always been this way. I do discipline, sometimes, when I feel it warrents discipline. However, I'm much more likely to dig into the intent behind the behavior. As far as the relationship development, it's funny this came up. I just updated my profile, adding this: If I feel led to Master someone, the way I build the relationship is simple; I set forth what I want, then I wait for the slave to be ready to surrender each thing to me in their own time. As the slave comes to trust me and surrender their will, the depth of the relationship grows...and it only grows as fast as the slowest partner (because, rest assured, I will have a growth process too!). As the relationship deepens, I wait for the slave to request their collars. I have found that most slaves who are looking for the same relationship fundamentals I am, will ask only when they feel they are read. I accept when I feel that I am ready. Master Fire

tdslittlehelper -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/6/2007 12:12:49 AM)
I was abused in my childhood in the name of "punishment" My Sir doesn't punish me. It would not be safe for my mental health. Knowing this, I strive to be "obedient" in what he asks me to do so as not to put the relationship in a place where a punishment would be needed. I don't willfully disobey him or break rules.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment...a new angle (for me) (12/6/2007 7:24:47 AM)
oops

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