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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 2:30:51 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

LadyE
Can we please capitalise Liberals only when it refers to the Liberal party?

No...'cos there's Liberals lurking everywhere except in my bed.

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 2:36:14 AM

LadyEllen

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Seeks, you'd best do as youre told, or I wont take you to MissT's party on a leash, like we discussed.

Mind you, could be a good thing. NG will have to be leashed after all, and the locals might find it more of a culture shock with two of you.

E

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 3:12:14 AM

seeksfemslave

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Yes LadyE.

By the way I was watching one of those ghastly childbirth programmes last night and the baby popped its head out and then refused to budge. Didnt like the state of modern Britain I expect.
Anyway I distinctly heard the midwife say come on Gabrielle, the baby's name , think of all that lovely lolly available for Mum and Dad as soon as you arrive.. Immediately the baby smiled and out she popped.
Gabrielle was the couple's seventh child.
Dad cant work he has to help look after the kids. He did cut the umbilical cord tho' Ugh.
Is this why we need so many immigrants ?

To LadyE: I see what you are getting at wrt Liberals, when I write my posts I have the class of liberals in mind.
In future I will do as you say lol
.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/3/2007 4:08:00 AM >

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 3:26:58 AM

LadyEllen

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we need immigrants exactly because too many Brits have so few relevant skills to today's "service economy", and find life on benefits provides a higher income than if they worked at the level they can.

problem being, immigrants aint so daft that they wont be able to work out the exact same conclusion in short order.

if the government were at all serious about our shortage of skilled workers, then we wouldnt have Iraqi doctors holed up as potential illegal immigrants.

E

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 5:56:20 AM

Politesub53

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Lady E, a link showing where all these " Iraqi Doctors " are being held would be good. i suspect there are very few people with such qualifications being held. The reason people in the UK dont have skill sets is due to a piss poor education system. Educate the masses and you solve the problems.

Another link showing how everyone on benefit is doing so, as it pays more than working, because in my experience thats not been the case. The only time i every read of people on benefit earning good money is when they have loads of kids, or an illegal job on the side.

I normally find most people who moan about benefit scroungers havent actually had to survive on welfare either.

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 7:29:03 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E, a link showing where all these " Iraqi Doctors " are being held would be good. i suspect there are very few people with such qualifications being held. The reason people in the UK dont have skill sets is due to a piss poor education system. Educate the masses and you solve the problems.

Another link showing how everyone on benefit is doing so, as it pays more than working, because in my experience thats not been the case. The only time i every read of people on benefit earning good money is when they have loads of kids, or an illegal job on the side.

I normally find most people who moan about benefit scroungers havent actually had to survive on welfare either.

I dont have time to go searching for a link on the doctors (et al); it has been reported in the media several times now that the professional classes have formed a large of the exodus since our liberation of their country.

As for the low wage vs benefits thing - I never said anything about scroungers, or living it up on benefits, I merely pointed out that benefits provides a better income than a low wage unskilled job. Its called the benefits trap, and I've been in it before now.

E

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 9:08:22 AM

Stephann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

we need immigrants exactly because too many Brits have so few relevant skills to today's "service economy", and find life on benefits provides a higher income than if they worked at the level they can.

problem being, immigrants aint so daft that they wont be able to work out the exact same conclusion in short order.

if the government were at all serious about our shortage of skilled workers, then we wouldnt have Iraqi doctors holed up as potential illegal immigrants.

E

If you were vomiting with serious stomach pains, would you want to be seen by a doctor who doesn't speak English? Who's major training in Iraq might have been on par with a paramedic in the West?

The problem with foreign trained doctors (in any country), is that they are awarded their credentials based on criteria that isn't necessarily on par with criteria in your own country. Just because someone claims to be a computer tech, doesn't mean I'm going to let them work on my network.

I'm chiming in on this thread, because we're are, and soon to a greater degree, we will be facing similar questions in the US. Presently, when someone calls 911, and an unconscious person is on the ground, paramedics fix up and bring that person to the hospital. No questions related to insurance are asked when they arrive, unless the person is conscious. Even if they have no insurance, they aren't refused. They are patched up, and sent home as soon as they are able to go, with a bill drawn up on them. If they don't pay the bill, the hospital eats the bill (and passes it on to other, paying clients.)

This model is causing hospitals that used to serve poorer areas to end up closing their doors; they might receive some city, state, and federal funds, but they're usually privately (or non-profitley) managed.

Something mentioned earlier, refers to human rights. I'm a firm believer that humans have the right to seek out whatever life they desire. If I want top notch medical care, I have the right to access it; I don't believe I have the right to have it simply given to me. There are lots of ways to pay for medical care; one hundred years ago, I certainly didn't expect the government to simply pay my doctor. If I didn't have cash, I might give him chickens, potatoes, shoes, or whatever else I did. Today, there are often handfuls of intermediaries and middle men (in the US) in the guise of insurance or HMO corporations.

I believe the best solution is for the state to foot the bill for inexpensive, bare minimum health care. I don't believe it is the states responsibility to fork over one million dollars worth of treatment, to keep me alive an extra month. I do believe that the state should fork over a million dollars, to pay for 50,000 children to get vaccinated, or 10,000 mammograms. Until we can accept that health care isn't 'at any price', and prepare to limit the amount we're willing to spend to treat and keep people alive, our values will continue to become a bottomless pit to continue shoveling money into.

Illegal immigrants, believe it or not, still pay sales (or VAT) taxes. I think it's unconscionable for a doctor or hospital to turn away someone with a risk to life or limb. Bare minimum, for me, means just that.

Stephan

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 9:18:25 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

If you were vomiting with serious stomach pains, would you want to be seen by a doctor who doesn't speak English? Who's major training in Iraq might have been on par with a paramedic in the West?

Well, one sometimes finds that doctors here dont speak English very well anyway, but regardless.

The point is, they say they are doctors. I wouldnt advocate taking their word for it - they have to establish their credentials here, same as anyone else seeking to register as an MD.

And we're short of paramedics too, so if thats where their skill level is, they'll do for target practice for yobs on a Saturday night just as well as a native.

E

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 10:39:11 AM

missturbation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Seeks, you'd best do as youre told, or I wont take you to MissT's party on a leash, like we discussed.

Mind you, could be a good thing. NG will have to be leashed after all, and the locals might find it more of a culture shock with two of you.

E

Seeks and NG on leashes !! I cannot wait

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 11:19:03 AM

Stephann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The point is, they say they are doctors. I wouldnt advocate taking their word for it - they have to establish their credentials here, same as anyone else seeking to register as an MD.

A quick look into the wildly complex NHS websites, it seems that the likelyhood of a foreign born doctor being permitted to practice in the UK in any capacity is on par with a snowball trying to vacation in hell. The standards, examinations, and clinical observations requirements are daunting enough for someone born and bred in London.

Following graduation from medical school, placement in the Foundation Programm e is necessary. I can only imagine that exceptions would be extremely rare, on a case by case (and reputation by reputation) basis.

On a personal level, I have a friend who's father was a practicing doctor in Guatemala. When they moved to the United States, he had to find work as a factory worker; his credentials and university degree simply didn't transfer in any meaningful fashion. Obviously, this is to prevent bogus or substandard degrees from being awarded out of country, though clearly control (and authority) over what and how doctors in a particular country are jealously guarded in the academic world.

Frankly, I would imagine the most steller Harvard Med graduate would still find himself snubbed in some ways in trying to practice outside of the US.

Stephan

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 2:38:12 PM

Politesub53

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Stephann the NHS is full over overseas staff. There have been several cases of malpractice by individuals, i suspect most of these had slipped through the recruting net. Every overseas Doctor i have been in contact with has been very professional. Below is an extra i found concerning the skills shortage which became a problem around the year 2000

The NHS began recruiting internationally in September 2001, aiming to bring in 1,000 senior doctors and thousands of nurses from overseas within four years. Healthcare was declared a ‘skills shortage occupation’ making it easier for overseas professionals to secure work permits.

As a result of these policies:

Over two-thirds of doctors registering to practise in the UK in 2003 were from overseas – the vast majority from non-European countries
One in three of the 70,000 NHS hospital medical staff in England in 2002 had trained overseas.

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 2:55:01 PM

Stephann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Stephann the NHS is full over overseas staff. There have been several cases of malpractice by individuals, i suspect most of these had slipped through the recruting net. Every overseas Doctor i have been in contact with has been very professional. Below is an extra i found concerning the skills shortage which became a problem around the year 2000

The NHS began recruiting internationally in September 2001, aiming to bring in 1,000 senior doctors and thousands of nurses from overseas within four years. Healthcare was declared a ‘skills shortage occupation’ making it easier for overseas professionals to secure work permits.

As a result of these policies:

Over two-thirds of doctors registering to practise in the UK in 2003 were from overseas – the vast majority from non-European countries

One in three of the 70,000 NHS hospital medical staff in England in 2002 had trained overseas.

Sure; I'd be willing to guess that India tops that list.

The phrase "senior doctors" means the most advanced and recognized in countries with comparable qualifications. I suspect former UK colonies would be given deference in a way that Middle Eastern and Latin American countries wouldn't.

Stephan

(p.s. just a little note to let you know neither of the links you offered in blue work for me. I would be interested in the source material, though frankly I'm not especially enthusiastic about the topic of the UK's overseas doctors. I will gladly concede the point if someone offers some evidence to that fact.)

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 2:57:04 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

I don't see much of a conflict. Anyone walking into a hospital or a GP surgery requiring 'primary' health care should get it free of charge. I don't care whether they're British, European Union citizens, or other immigrants, legal or illegal. If they need medical treatment they should have access to it, and cost shouldn't even be mentioned. The NHS is as British as Buckingham Palace, this is our beacon in the world of human rights. I feel it should be protected as such.

I agree with this. I would rather live in a country where everybody is entitled to basic medical care regardless of their ability to pay. I dont want the streets to be littered with broken or sick people who then infect the rest of us.

Heal the sick. Work out who pays for it afterwards.

I have made the point that the problem in the United States is the medical and pharma lobbies. They prefer to stick it to the government the exorbitant sums for caring for the indigent or uninsured. A more reasonable solution would be to provide a basic level of health care for everybody, give the government the power to negotiate from a position of strength for what level of payment for services they will provide. In other words, give the Government the same bargaining power as major corporations and insurance companies have with companies who provide health care.

The government ends up paying for it anyway, why not let them negotiate from a position of strength against a soul-less, blood-sucking, corporate entity.

But the neo-conservatives, dittoheads, and other running-dog lackeys for big corporations do what the Corporatocracy tells them to do, which is vociferously object to the government having any power to wisely use the Dittohead's (and everybody else's) tax dollars.

Boggles the imagination.

Sinergy

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 3:15:10 PM

Politesub53

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Stephann, the section i quouted containing the links can be found here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2979165

The links themselves may be out of date.

You are probably right in that Doctors from India ect get preference. Take it from me though, many many junior Doctors are also from overseas, anyone living here will tell you that.

Ironically many of our own healthworkers often emmigrate for better pay or to warmer climes, mainly the USA or Australia/New Zealand

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 3:32:44 PM

GoddessMine

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Same goes for Filipino healthcare workers, most of whom are female nurses or caretakers. It's an entire industry there, and they receive some of the best training. They come over to Canada or the U.S. in order to send money back to the Phillipines. It's somewhat of a weird phenomenon because many hire their own nurses or nannies to look after their families while they take care of Western families here.

Love,
GM

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 8:12:17 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Jebus! I went in on a Saturday night to the ER. The wait was 40 minutes. And I thought that was bad.

I heard the wait time in socialized healthcare countries was worse, but that's pretty bad.

Try 8 HOURS with a hot gall bladder... unbelievable. By the time I went to surgery.. it added pancreatitis.

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RE: Illegal immigrants face NHS block - 12/3/2007 8:14:20 PM

LotusSong

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Im so fed up I'm off to Thailand to get a sex change....free of course... as it should be.
Sod the Thailanders....its me 'uman rights.
I just cant stand me big dick ....it upsets me !!!!!

My brother immigrated to Thailand 18 months ago he was so fed up with the US.

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