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Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 3:15:09 PM   
cyberdude611


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Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Bush critic and anti-war Democrat John Murtha spent Thanksgiving in Iraq with US troops and made a statement that it appears the "surge" is working but thinks Iraq needs to start taking taking a leading role in security of their country.

Is Moveon.org and the far-left going to bash Murtha like they bashed Petraeus when he told congress the surge is working?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07333/837824-100.stm#
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 3:17:46 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		Since the goal of the Surge, to permit the Iraqi National Government the military space to implement their political solutions, has resulted in a success rate of under 20%, to suggest that it's anything but a failure is just silly.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 3:27:57 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Great, success, now let's get our Troops out of Iraq!
And also out of S. Korea!

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 4:40:09 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Since the goal of the Surge, to permit the Iraqi National Government the military space to implement their political solutions, has resulted in a success rate of under 20%, to suggest that it's anything but a failure is just silly.




I hope that something is working, but the fact of the matter is this, as long as it is a foreign power enforcing the peace, as soon as that foreign power leaves the violence will be back.. and unless the Iraqis are going to take control over their own stuff, we will be in "surge" mode forever, and if the past is any indicator, I just do not see that happening...

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 4:54:38 PM   
Muttling


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Status: offline 		The surge IS working and working well, but can we maintain it long enough to achieve lasting results?  I seriously doubt it given Iranian and Syrian medling.   The surge is a great idea and one we should have implemented back in the 2004-2005 time frame.



On a side note, YES...I have been in Iraq and I do have a good concept of what I'm talking about.  On the subject of Iran, I was finding Iranian ordnance back in 2004 and I am very disappointed at the fact that we waited until 2006 to start taking issue with their efforts to undermine our operations in Iraq.  If you want to understand what is happening to us in Iraq, read up on the Soviet experience in Afghanistan.  It's not identical, but it's damn close.

< Message edited by Muttling -- 12/1/2007 4:55:33 PM >

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 5:26:38 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

but the fact of the matter is this, as long as it is a foreign power enforcing the peace, as soon as that foreign power leaves the violence will be back



Fact? The chaos began when occupying forces landed on their doorstep, which suggests there is an increased chance of stability from the moment the occupying forces leave.

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 5:31:15 PM   
MasterKalif


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Status: offline 		NorthernGent, I am afraid its too late....now Iraqi society is more divided than ever before along ethnic, religious and political lines. When the Americans leave, the violence in civil war mode can easily come again. Once a society takes this downward spirall it is difficult to get out of it.

The surge may be working for now due to unstable alliances with tribal chiefs and such, but its not something that will work forever. Some may be thinking "oh mission accomplished" but its not, it will not be until a strong Iraqi state is created where the state is able to control all of its vast national territory and where people would be able to walk in downtown Baghdad without fearing who will shoot them or blow them up every morning on their way to work.

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 6:11:16 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		MK, they're all assumptions, though. This might happen, that might happen, but the fact that the chaos started when the occupiers arrived, is an uncontestable fact.

Now, obviously those with a vested interest in having a presence in Iraq will spew the line "they need us". Time to put it to the test. Even if, and this is the mother of all ifs, the United States were in Iraq on a mission clouded in benevolence, it's not their business.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 6:15:07 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Since the goal of the Surge, to permit the Iraqi National Government the military space to implement their political solutions, has resulted in a success rate of under 20%, to suggest that it's anything but a failure is just silly.




I hope that something is working


Well, by *working*, that means, practically, that the Sunni/Shia neighborhood by neighborhood sectarian cleansing is over, so there are fewer religious enemies to murder.

We're back to 2006 levels of violence. BFD. Where's the POLITICAL solution, which the Military Action can only buy time for?

Oh, Bush is now talking about abandoning the Malaki government, and looking to support the successor regime?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 6:16:26 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

The surge IS working and working well, but can we maintain it long enough to achieve lasting results? I seriously doubt it given Iranian and Syrian medling. The surge is a great idea and one we should have implemented back in the 2004-2005 time frame.



On a side note, YES...I have been in Iraq and I do have a good concept of what I'm talking about. On the subject of Iran, I was finding Iranian ordnance back in 2004 and I am very disappointed at the fact that we waited until 2006 to start taking issue with their efforts to undermine our operations in Iraq. If you want to understand what is happening to us in Iraq, read up on the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. It's not identical, but it's damn close.


Worry more about the Saudi terrorists. Iran isn't 1/2 the problem the WTC planners and financiers-at-large in Saudi Arabia are...

Of course, given Bush's Appeasement of the Saudi Terrorists, I'm not expecting much...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Muttling)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 8:29:29 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		The deep rooted problems between those two sects of Islam, will prevent any lasting peace. Civil will eventually break out, unless someone is willing to step in and be as ruthless as Saddam was.

Orion

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 8:45:09 PM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
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Status: offline 		It doesn`t really matter.Even if the "~surge~"is working,people still want out of Iraq.It`s over.



http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/story?id=3822935&page=1

The right-wing is all but ignoring the other comments Murtha made in his statement.

Here`s a more complete view of Murtha`s words,without the rightwing spin and pettiness.

"I think the surge is working but that's only one element. It's working because of the increase in troops," he said, "but the thing that has to happen is that the Iraqis have to do this themselves..."
(The caveat was all but ignored by some conservative critics, one of whom described Murtha's claim as the equivalent of "hell freezing over.")

Since expressing skepticism over the war in November 2005, Murtha has consistently applauded the capabilities of the troops but also emphasized that, in the absence of political progress among the Iraqi government, their work would be for naught. When President Bush rolled out his surge proposal in the winter of 2007, he opposed the idea, according to the Wall Street Journal, because "it meant depleting readiness at home or extending the tours of troops [currently] in the war zone."

On Thursday, the congressman took a softer but similar stance. Murtha harped on the lack of political and diplomatic progress in Iraq. "The impression I got was that the central government was pretty close to dysfunctional," he said. "They hope the 2008 budget will be passed by 2007 but there are still 17 ministerial seats unfilled."
And he spoke worrisomely about the status of America's armed forces: "I keep stressing we can no longer afford to spend 14 billion a month on the war and let our readiness slip in other parts of the country."

Murtha also offered several more defined criticisms of the Bush administration's war policy. He discussed the violence caused by private contractors. "They are out of control," said the congressman. "There are more of them than there are troops." And he criticized America's military equipment shortage, noting that troops were leasing heavy-lift helicopters from Russia because the domestic crop had either worn down or weren't readily available

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/30/what-murtha-really-said-a_n_74751.html

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/1/2007 8:50:05 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 9:07:31 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I am sure that Murtha, spending nearly what? two or three days in the most secure places in country, and its american briefing rooms,  is well qualified to tell us what it is like on the ground. Talk about the unbiased and expert opinions...

Ron 

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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/1/2007 10:21:29 PM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

The surge IS working and working well, but can we maintain it long enough to achieve lasting results? I seriously doubt it given Iranian and Syrian medling. The surge is a great idea and one we should have implemented back in the 2004-2005 time frame.



On a side note, YES...I have been in Iraq and I do have a good concept of what I'm talking about. On the subject of Iran, I was finding Iranian ordnance back in 2004 and I am very disappointed at the fact that we waited until 2006 to start taking issue with their efforts to undermine our operations in Iraq. If you want to understand what is happening to us in Iraq, read up on the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. It's not identical, but it's damn close.


Worry more about the Saudi terrorists. Iran isn't 1/2 the problem the WTC planners and financiers-at-large in Saudi Arabia are...

Of course, given Bush's Appeasement of the Saudi Terrorists, I'm not expecting much...






You comments are extremely well noted.  The Saudi's are a very mixed bag from a perspective of being our allies.  On the one hand, they have great interest in us doing well and have frequently supported us in OPEC.  However, they are a theocratic society and they embrace the Wahhabi version of Islam which is a very strict interpertation with little room for acceptance of non-Wahhabs....much less infidels (e.g. non-muslims).

That said, I did not see a LOT of Saudi influence in my work in Iraq.  I did see influence on rare occassion and I certainly didn't see everything that was going on, but I did see a BUTT load of Iranian and Syrian involvement.

IMO, Saudi isn't a big player in the Iraqi situation and would be far better served by a peaceful solution to Iraq.  After all, the Saudi's are a Sunni based version of Islam while the vast majority of the Iraqi population is Shiite.  (If you think muslims are all the same and Shiites equal Sunnis then you have a LOT to learn.)  The worst case scenario in Iraq is all out civil war and the Shiite's are certain to win such a war on basis of numbers along with Iranian backing.  This is NOT good for the Saudi's, but it is a wet dream for the Iranians.   Furthermore, what goes well for the Iranians helps the Syrians so we find ourselves between matching bookends and struggling to control border flow while the people we really need to support us just don't care.

I'm not particularly fond of the Saudi's and I do keep an eye on their operations.  That said, I am far more concerned with Iran, Venezuala, Pakistan, and North Korea...in that precise order.  What's really frightening is the fact that Iran is directly collaborating with Venezuala, North Korea, and Syria.  They are also collaborating with strong factions in Pakistan as well as insurgents in Iraq, Turkey, Afghanistan, Somalia, India, Isreal, Egypt, Lebenon, and more. 

We are facing a very dangerous foreign policy situation and I don't see any good answers to the problems we face.  I am especially disappointed with the French, German, and Russian responses to this situation.  They want to knock us off the top of the hill and I don't have a problem with that, but they are kicking us all in the balls in their efforts to knock us off the top of the hill.  I definitely have a problem with their pissing in everyone's pot and we are helpless to prevent them from undermining our efforts.  My next vote for president will be heavily weighted on the individual who I think has the best attitudes for foriegn policy first and the best budget attitudes second.  Nothing else is even remotely close to those two issues for me.

On a sad note, I see the most likely result in Iraq as an indirect over-throw of government operations by Iran.  They will be patient and wait us out, we can't maintain this troop surge forever and they know it.  When the time is right, they will undermine and assassinate any political leaders who do not fall in line with them.   It's FAR easier for them to undermine our efforts than it is for us to stop them.  We proved that with our support of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Russians and the Iranians took a lot of notes.  When the dust settled in Afghanistan, we didn't support the new government and democracy crumples to the Taliban.  I don't think Iran will make that mistake with Iraq and that really scares me.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/2/2007 1:00:10 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

NorthernGent, I am afraid its too late....now Iraqi society is more divided than ever before along ethnic, religious and political lines. When the Americans leave, the violence in civil war mode can easily come again. Once a society takes this downward spirall it is difficult to get out of it.

The surge may be working for now due to unstable alliances with tribal chiefs and such, but its not something that will work forever. Some may be thinking "oh mission accomplished" but its not, it will not be until a strong Iraqi state is created where the state is able to control all of its vast national territory and where people would be able to walk in downtown Baghdad without fearing who will shoot them or blow them up every morning on their way to work.


Sheesh, you could say that about a few cities in the U.S. too.
I believe with Ron Paul that the best way to get out is just to get out.
We simply cannot continue to have Troops in more than 130 countries.
Our fight is with Bin Laden and al qeada and they're in Pakistan not Iraq or Iran.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MasterKalif)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/2/2007 8:41:28 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The deep rooted problems between those two sects of Islam, will prevent any lasting peace. Civil will eventually break out, unless someone is willing to step in and be as ruthless as Saddam was.

Orion


And right there is a masterful 2 sentence summary of the Bush Administrations lack of sophistication required for effective intervention.

I would suggest that NO-ONE has the sophistication required to RESOLVE the sunni/shia issues, and the best that can be hoped for is the management of it.

I suggest we move the World Cup to an annual event, and substitute football riots for sectarian cleansing. The hooligans can still blow off steam, but fewer people will die, and there won't be any of the displacement and disruption involved ( excepting around the fields and ON the pitch... ) ( They've sent off 84 players so far.... )



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/2/2007 8:44:52 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

The surge IS working and working well, but can we maintain it long enough to achieve lasting results? I seriously doubt it given Iranian and Syrian medling. The surge is a great idea and one we should have implemented back in the 2004-2005 time frame.



On a side note, YES...I have been in Iraq and I do have a good concept of what I'm talking about. On the subject of Iran, I was finding Iranian ordnance back in 2004 and I am very disappointed at the fact that we waited until 2006 to start taking issue with their efforts to undermine our operations in Iraq. If you want to understand what is happening to us in Iraq, read up on the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. It's not identical, but it's damn close.


Worry more about the Saudi terrorists. Iran isn't 1/2 the problem the WTC planners and financiers-at-large in Saudi Arabia are...

Of course, given Bush's Appeasement of the Saudi Terrorists, I'm not expecting much...






You comments are extremely well noted. The Saudi's are a very mixed bag from a perspective of being our allies.


They're not our allies. Our allies would have given up the people we know to be responsible for the planning and attacks against the USA and the insurgency in Iraq. The Saudi King hasn't done that, but INSTEAD provides a secure base of operations for those Terrorists.

What do we call people who provide material support and a secure base to terrorists, kids?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Muttling)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/2/2007 8:52:20 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Our allies also would not be financially supporting extreme Muslim schools in the US and Canada. At Best the Saudi's have been business partners.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Murtha: Iraq surge is working - 12/2/2007 1:15:25 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Our allies also would not be financially supporting extreme Muslim schools in the US and Canada. At Best the Saudi's have been business partners.



Those schools are supported by Saudi citizens, not the Saudi government.  That aspect is no different than our religious organizations who fund missionaries to carry the Christian word throughout the Middle East.

They are definitely our allies in the international community and have helped us a great deal in foreign policy matters.  However, their relationship with us has always been treated as a dirty little secret when they were  dealing with the Muslim community and that is an area where we suffer greatly (both from actions of our allies such as Saudis but FAR more so from our own actions.)

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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