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Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:25:29 PM

Kalista07

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Okay, so last night i came across a thread in the submissive/slave section about being disobedient to Your Dom/Master and lying to them about it....In reading that thread it occurred to me that, i had in fact, engaged in this poor behavior. On two occasions (months ago) i lied to my Sir and told Him i had walked when in fact i hadn't......... So, i emailed Him and told Him and waited..........and waited............and waited............so eventually i called Him, then He called me back. By the time we were able to talk i was almost sobbing...... Tonight as i sit here, i realize my reaction was over the top.....i also know He was right when He said He thought it had more to do with some residual crap from my past, than my disobedience or dishonesty....... Last night as i went to sleep i felt okay with where things were at........
........Now today, i'm wondering is it possible that i manipulated Him simply so He wouldn't punish me? i think i would know if i did something like this.....And i'm still learning.........but.........................................
Sorry, had to get that out of my head as i've been obsessing about it for the past hour.
Kali

< Message edited by Kalista07 -- 11/27/2007 5:26:39 PM >

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

Post #: 1

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:35:46 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Most of us lesser mortals live life in total manipulation mode without even a conscious thought to the fact that we are doing it.

If in your situation I would have been panicked at one point in our relationship, and I do not think manipulating to escape punishment would have been the reason for the panic. In my relationship such behavior means the end of road eventually, especially if it kept occurring... and my fear that he would end it would be the cause for the tears..

If you want to discern the reason for your actions, what were you thinking when you cried? Was it that you did not want to be punished? Were you afraid that you displeased him? Were you afraid he would leave you? Then you will have the answers to your question... none of us have them...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kalista07)

Post #: 2

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:38:00 PM

MRandme

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Joined: 9/24/2007
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Kalista,

Manipulation is when you consciously decide to try to control another person's behavior. you don't seem to have done that. The mere fact that you came clean to him shows that you were not manipulating him. There was no way to know that He would be lenient about it, He might have been very harsh and upset. you took that chance. i just don't see any manipulation here. And i'm willing to bet you won't be lying again.

*hugs*

g

_____________________________

And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to Kalista07)

Post #: 3

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:39:46 PM

Kalista07

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Joined: 7/1/2007
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Honestly Julia,
i think the tears were mostly because i consider myself a very honest person.... i think it was not only that i knew it would have displeased Him, but somehow i had let myself down...And i think part of the tears had to do with the fact that it was something we've talked soooo much about, and i guess i just felt kind of blindsided by it...And yeah, truth be told (and of course He knows all of this) i was somehow afraid He'd bail....Even though, in the logical part of my brain i know He's not going anywhere.....Especially over something so stupid....
grrrrrrrr...
Over the edge,
Kali

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 4

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:40:50 PM

Kalista07

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Thank You sooo much!! You are absolutely right about the no more lying thing.....grrrrr

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to MRandme)

Post #: 5

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:41:02 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Then I do not think you were being manipulative...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kalista07)

Post #: 6

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:43:03 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Manipulation is when you consciously decide to try to control another person's behavior.

That is one way to manipulate, but in my experience most forms of manipulation are things we do on auto-pilot without necessarily even thinking about what we are doing or being conscious of it....young ones demonstrate this very well, they will often act up to get what they want and manipulate their parents without much thought at all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MRandme)

Post #: 7

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:47:01 PM

Kalista07

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
That is one way to manipulate, but in my experience most forms of manipulation are things we do on auto-pilot without necessarily even thinking about what we are doing or being conscious of it....young ones demonstrate this very well, they will often act up to get what they want and manipulate their parents without much thought at all.

Julia,
Thanks so much........i bolded the portion of Your post that i think described what i was unable to put into words......My fear, i suppose, was that somehow without intentionally doing it i had manipulated Him.
Kali

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 8

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 5:47:04 PM

goodgirl08

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I completely understand your distress, and ability to find things to worry about, but don't you think he would have told you if he felt manipulated?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 9

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 6:15:51 PM

MasDom

Posts: 375
Joined: 11/10/2005
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Smiles, well at least your being honest now.
Its better to live and learn, then to deny and roll over.

Let me explain a certain issue I've seen on collar me often.
Many girls here are abuse victims as we all learn in time,
And a little quirk in their behavior does tend to show often.

When you feel lost for long enough you tend to keep self destructing, and loosing yourself to bad situations because it feels easier to fail, or to loose yourself to the things you should really fear or over come.

I,ve noticed that some people are actually more afraid to cut themselves loose from it all rather then face it and cry for a shorter period of time.
The problem for them is they loose themselves in what I call a character, and its easier to hide with in its self destruction and lies then deal with things that really hurt in a way thats so brutally real to them.

These people are the submissives your talking about.
Some are just brats, and thats a different story.
But these few people are the ones you'll most likely deal with even trying to be those brats.
All of it a shield due to their lack of resolve.
The silly thing is deep down inside they truly want it more then life itself.
Complain to the world and themselves that they want it all to come to an end, but the only way thats going to happen is if they calm the hell down.
Face the real issues in that way that most hurt.

For them some one may have to take control and resolve with them as a loyal companion their torments.
Either that or their lives will have to self destruct enough until they just snap out of it, or sadly in the other case loose themselves completely in a form of emotional suicide, if not the real thing..

Real brats however are people who want a Dom to over come them and enforce their control.
Its their fetish to be over powered or belittled to the truth.
Annoyingly they don't emphasize this fact, once their little game starts.
To know who they are one must simply judge the results of your emotional onslaught in reverence to the problem.
If they stick around and it sorta feels like a pout game.
Their you go...

And lastly their are those assanine people who really get off on toying with other Dom's just to feel empowered.
These people are the worst because their existences are a joke.

Their supposed Dominance to these situations is over come by their stupidity in life, and their relentless obsession with the need to fool people.
Truth be it their need only shows a self loathing they never over come, and a feeling of inferiority.
Since they never better themselves past this act of ignorance on their part, their never really anything better.
Just the same weakness they self loath for it.

With these people its best to eventually try and break them.
I know that seems weird, but these people are the most on the verge of self destruction, and only wish to really in the end have that emotional suicide I was talking about.
One day waking up and realizing they are no better then a useless ignorant piece of filth.

Once their broken at least they will stop treating others with such disregard, influencing many a sincere Dom to question everything and loose focus on trusting new faces.
Leading only to the true discontent you'll find on collar me.

Once their broken I then suggest forcing them to look over their life, and recollect their faults, then over come them realizing some strength you build back into them.

As for you...
I feel your non of the above, just some one who is for the first time realizing their is a hidden mentality to dating and social behavior.

You did good by questioning yourself, and should keep the course..

hope that wasnt over winded.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 10

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 6:40:11 PM

laurell3

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Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Manipulation is when you consciously decide to try to control another person's behavior.

That is one way to manipulate, but in my experience most forms of manipulation are things we do on auto-pilot without necessarily even thinking about what we are doing or being conscious of it....young ones demonstrate this very well, they will often act up to get what they want and manipulate their parents without much thought at all.

When I first read this post I thought well if you were manipulating it wasn't intentional. Then I read julia's post and thought yeah kids are the prime example of using manipulation when learning socialisation and rules, and it's not really intentional most of the time. I think if you have a repeated behavior pattern that elicits responses that you would not get otherwise that you do whether you do it consciously or not it is manipulation. People can learn to manipulate without doing it consciously and it's still a negative behavior that should be pointed out. However, I'm not sure the OP was doing that at all.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 6:56:28 PM

sexyone4you

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Joined: 8/17/2006
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I don't think you manipulated him, I personally think you mind f*cked yourself. You were weepy probably because you were convinced he wasn't talking to you. Don't forget. You could still be punished.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 12

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 7:16:14 PM

LATEXBABY64

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This is why we need to do a cleansing after any relationship. past can sometimes cloud what is really going on or can happen. Learn the lesson and move on. that is how each of us grows
I hope you find peace. try not to be to hard on your self. there is always two sides to everything something triggered the response of the way you acted

(in reply to sexyone4you)

Post #: 13

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 7:51:39 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Tears are a way to void excess anxiety chemicals from the body. They're healthy. Some studies even link men's earlier death from heart attack to lack of crying.

If this is something you've done before, cry in highly stressful situations then it appears to be a mechanism for you to deal with your anxiety and not manipulation.

Besides, tears or not, if he felt this situation warranted greater punishment he still could have done so. He decided that your reaction was sufficient punishment. His choice, learn to accept forgiveness as well as punishment. For many of us that's harder to learn.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

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Post #: 14

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 7:57:39 PM

domiguy

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If I were him I would have been pissed...If you will lie about something insignificant I can't help but wonder what would be your actions when the shit hits the fan....It would give me serious pause as to how I would feel about you currently and whether I feel I would be able to trust you into the future.

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Post #: 15

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/27/2007 8:34:50 PM

Kalista07

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i wanted to thank You all for Your comments and support...... Domiguy, honestly? i agree with You completly.....i don't know how to currently explain the thoughts that are in my head, but i'll give it my best shot.... i remember i was exhausted (physically and emotionally) and i was in bed when He called and i made the decision to lie.... Honestly, at the time i didn't really think much about it.....Last night however, i felt (still kind of do) like some kind of axe murderer....Logically, in my head i know that for the most part i'm very honest....But i also know what my response would have been if He had lied to me about anything.... It would not have been so kind...... And so, i guess i can't help but feel as though i'm not worthy of His trust or respect or anything else.....GRRRRRR.....
There's gotta be an off switch to this thing....Anyone have any clues??? *That is my head, not the computer*
Kali

< Message edited by Kalista07 -- 11/27/2007 9:21:07 PM >

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 16

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/28/2007 12:08:49 AM

MaamJay

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Yes ... there is one simple thing that will be the off switch if you allow it to be ... and that is the knowledge that by beating yourself up about it more than your Master is willing to beat you up about it ... you are topping from the bottom and in fact being disobedient to His will. you are, in effect, declaring that you don't trust His judgement in not punishing you more, so you are punishing yourself for Him! Either that, or you are saying that your standards are higher than His! Either way, it's not submission is it?

OK that sounded harsh ... and sometimes we need to hear things in a very blunt way for them to penetrate our angst. I recall the first time I heard that said by a wise slave ... I was astounded ... could hardly believe it at first, but upon reflection, I could see the logic. I hope you can too.

I don't think you were being consciously manipulative given what you reported you said and were thinking at the time. I think you were being genuinely remorseful about your deceit and remorse is a good thing in My book. Were you overly remorseful? Maybe, maybe not, after all, lying and maintaining the lie for a few months is cause to question your honesty and trustworthiness. The fact that your Master didn't see it that way tells Me that He is operating on the bigger picture He has of you, which is of someone who is essentially honest but occasionally slips up! Which is why, given your great remorse, He has probably figured that was punishment enough. But I am sure He doesn't expect or want you to KEEP punishing yourself.

OK, as a sub, i have been there ... in my early days with Master, i was incredibly remorseful when i stuffed up on anything. Floods of tears instantly poured down my face. Which left Master saying "Oh please pet, honestly, it wasn't THAT bad, I'm really not that cross ..." and almost apologising to me for upsetting me! W/we talked about that a lot ... He expressed that He was almost not wanting to comment or correct anything if it was going to upset me that much ... and that wasn't right, how was i going to learn? i agreed to try to temper the response ... i would be sorry for sure, but my focus was to be on what i would learn in the experience. As i felt more secure, it became easier and easier to focus on the positives which freed Master to correct as necessary. Floods no more, though if i have really disappointed Him, a few tears may appear. W/we both handle the situation much better!

I hope you can do the same Kali!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to Kalista07)

Post #: 17

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/28/2007 3:12:13 AM

TysGalilah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i wanted to thank You all for Your comments and support...... Domiguy, honestly? i agree with You completly.....i don't know how to currently explain the thoughts that are in my head, but i'll give it my best shot.... i remember i was exhausted (physically and emotionally) and i was in bed when He called and i made the decision to lie.... Honestly, at the time i didn't really think much about it.....Last night however, i felt (still kind of do) like some kind of axe murderer....Logically, in my head i know that for the most part i'm very honest....But i also know what my response would have been if He had lied to me about anything.... It would not have been so kind...... And so, i guess i can't help but feel as though i'm not worthy of His trust or respect or anything else.....GRRRRRR.....
There's gotta be an off switch to this thing....Anyone have any clues??? *That is my head, not the computer*
Kali

Hi Kalista

I can very much relate to the feelings you are describing inside. Although it wasn't about a lie, feelings of dissappointing him can effect me that way....ack.

About the highlighted area of your post:
I have read others talking about how the punishment (in response to them disobeying or displeasing) feels like re-setting things in the relationship. That, as the submissive/slave, they want to be punished so they can emotionally purge and then move past the indescretion and move forward.
[ not talking about being bratty or manipulating for spanks here]
...and when that doesn't happen by the D > that they ( the s) will continue to self-punish.

have you considered this in regards to your situation??

just a thought : )

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Kalista07)

Post #: 18

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/28/2007 10:03:24 AM

Kalista07

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Maam Jay,
Thank You so much for sharing Your thoughts/experience....i can relate entirely to the concept of me basically 'training' (for lack of better words) Him how to respond to me, which thereby reduces His ability to dominate me.....Actually, we just had a conversation about this a few weeks ago regarding His fears (or hesitations) to push certain things/activities that He enjoys or normally requires due to my past...So, thank You....And You are right, essentially about my topping from the bottom....(DAMN IT!!! ) It was unintentional, of course, however i must let it go....Afterall, You are right.....If He's decided it's not a big deal then in must not be as big of a deal as it feels like to me..
Thanks,
Kali

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to MaamJay)

Post #: 19

RE: Is this manipulation? - 11/28/2007 10:05:12 AM

Kalista07

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Joined: 7/1/2007
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galilah,
Thank You for Your response....Actually this thought did sort of occur to me...Last night in an email to Him, i asked Him what His thoughts/beliefs were if i felt i needed some pain (punishment)....Would it be okay for me to ask for it, etc.......We are supposed to talk about it tonight..
Thanks,
Kali

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb

(in reply to TysGalilah)

Post #: 20

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