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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 11:34:19 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: philosophy

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Banning landmines doesn't mean they won't be used.  It just means those who don't use them would be at a military disadvantage.
 
....interesting logic. So by the same token we ought not ban chemical or biological weapons?

Why are biological weapons distasteful, yet nuclear weapons acceptable?  Face it, Man has been trying to find more efficient, less expensive, and less risky ways to kill himself off since the dawn of time (2001: A Space Oddessy comes to mind.)  Efforts to 'ban' types of warfare are always abysmal failures, useful only for making the survivors of war feel better about themselves.

Seems to me that some weapons have a greater effect on civilians than others........or to put it another way, some weapons by their very nature kill civilians more than others. If we wish to be civilised then we have to put up with the odd disadvantage....because the advantages are worth the candle.

There's nothing civilized about war.  Killing is killing.  I hate war.  Yet, military warfare is one of many tools a responsible leader must be willing to use.  If war must be used, I'm a proponent of the heaviest, fastest, most efficient form of warfare imaginable.  Kill the enemy fast enough, and you won't have to worry about laying mines in the first place.  To that end, I'd much prefer the use of chemical or biological weapons, instead of a vague military thread.  How is a bullet any more humane than cyanide anyway?

Epgah,

Your opinions disgust me.

I think any suggestion of threatening to blow up people desperate to find work demonstrates just how much contempt one has for human life, and on par with ripping wings off mosquitoes.

Stephan

_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 11:37:02 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		In Africa, especially the Angola conflict, a tactic was indeed to mine the fields. Thereby denying the local population the ability to feed themselves.

(in reply to domiguy)
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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 1:12:37 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

 If war must be used, I'm a proponent of the heaviest, fastest, most efficient form of warfare imaginable.  Kill the enemy fast enough, and you won't have to worry about laying mines in the first place. 


....i see your point. My only caveat is that weapons like CBW or landmines don't necessarily target the enemy.....and in the long run indiscriminate killing can create further conflict down the road. i know the phrase is over-used, but in modern warfare surgical strikes have to be the way forward. Simply wiping out a whole population in order to get a couple of snipers seems to me to be incredibly short-sighted.

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 1:21:57 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Do you consider this twisted definition of "honor" more important than LIFE?


......well, i can see what your answer is. How do you define honour?

quote:


Or put another way, if you know your opponent is playing by an anything-goes playbook, why not show them that you can be better at "anything-goes" fighting than they are?


....my answer to that is one i have typed a number of times on these fora. An honourable, civilised country does not instigate warfare except as a last resort answer to another country's violence. This is because an honourable culture is playing to a rulebook. Let's call that rulebook ethics. To throw out ones ethics because your opponent doesn't share them is to abdicate any right to the moral high ground.
You see, there is such a thing as right and wrong. If someone wrongs you, say shoots your dog, then it isn't acceptable to simply shoot their dog. Instead, civilised people find other ways to resolve the situation.
The logic you have espoused is the logic that leads to generational feuds.......where years later no-one can remember what started the conflict. When immature people fight they often, when challenged, say that the other one started it. Mature people know it doesn't really matter who started it as much as it matters who finished it. Whoever breaks the cycle of violence is a much bigger person than one who merely continues it.

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 2:31:02 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Phil, we catch al qeada guys and we have to treat them under the Geneva Conventions even though al qeada *isn't a signatory* to the G.C's? And even though we can shoot them as spies under those same Geneva Conventions.
Gee, makes a lot of sense to me!

They catch our guys and they're beheaded and their bodies mutilated and burned.


Stephann, you're right, that's the only way to fight a war, use overwhelming force and get it over as quickly as possable!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/21/2007 2:33:13 PM >

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 2:48:41 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Phil, we catch al qeada guys and we have to treat them under the Geneva Conventions even though al qeada *isn't a signatory* to the G.C's? And even though we can shoot them as spies under those same Geneva Conventions.


...yup, because we're the good guys. The alternative merely makes the children of our current enemies the enemies of our children.

quote:


Gee, makes a lot of sense to me!

They catch our guys and they're beheaded and their bodies mutilated and burned.


...yup, they're the bad guys. i'm not saying we shouldn't oppose them.....just that we ought to be smart about it.

quote:


Stephann, you're right, that's the only way to fight a war, use overwhelming force and get it over as quickly as possable!


...i do tend to agree, but that force has to be surgical. Turning Iraq into a shiny pane of glass might get short term results, but stores up all sorts of hell in the future.

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 3:06:01 PM   
EPGAH


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Joined: 12/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Landmines are effective for decades....They continue to kill after resolutions have been reached. The Khmer Rouge is long gone but the millions of mines that they laid are still active. 

I said they're effective...what that effect IS, depends on who lays them, where, and why...
If you TELL people to stay out of your territory (Use "you" as either a person, or as some national agency), they'll laugh at you--then violate your borders anyways...Armed guards can be killed, bribed, or look away on their own accord at JUST the wrong time! Armed robots, Americans are leery of, because they have trouble telling friend from foe (Although, again at borders, this is not a problem, anyone trying to cross at any point OTHER than official "checkpoints" is an enemy!)
HOWEVER, it is entirely possible that terrorists will use a cheap, and by definition expendable technology to cause chaos, rather than defend!

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Landmines are indiscriminate killers....Over 25% of all people wounded by land mines are children....

THAT is why they're fair...If you don't want to get blown up, STAY AWAY!
Again, terrorists can use land-mines for OFFENSE, rather than DEFENSE, but that is hardly the fault of a device so stupid it destroys itself!
Originally, landmines were meant to keep people out of a predefined area!
If you consider landmines by their original purpose, they are a cheap, effective weapon...Which is precisely what makes them so attractive to terrorists...A "cheap shot" attack!

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
One last note, I am much more leery about the police than I am the "inner city" youths or the disgruntled high school student.  In the future it might be wise to not put honest citizen and policeman in the same sentence.  I believe that there are many people who are much more concerned about  a run in with the police over having to deal with the inner city youths and their disgruntled high school student contemporaries.
I have read a few of your prior posts.....I have never agreed or found anything of value in any of them.

By "inner city", I obviously meant drug-cartel scum, or the new cultural-exchange "Triad" branches...By disgruntled student, I meant things like Columbine, or the more recent Virginia Tech massacre.
Assault-rifles and/or land-mines may or may not get banned, but there's something about "As long as there's a demand...there'll be a supply...let's legalize it and tax it!"

In an environment with no guns (Hypothetically speaking, a school zone), the man with a gun is his own army!
In an environment with pistols (A gunfight with police, for instance), the man with an assault-rifle is "superior"!
(With apologies to Desiderius Erasmus. He's been dead for almost 500 years, so the quote I "altered" is probably public-domain by now. The original, of course, being, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King"!)

The only people who SHOULD be concerned about a "run-in" with the police are criminals...Cops may or may not be honest, but as long as they're going to die, some of them doubtless feel they should die rich and appreciated, well-paid by criminals, than to die under fire by criminals, and getting sued when they shoot back...
So basically, cops are jackbooted thugs if they DO their jobs, and Nazi Jackbooted Thugs if they do their job, and the criminal is a minority, and they're a "waste of tax-money" if they DON'T do their jobs...Why not join the scum that they are allegedly hired to fight against? At least then, "friend" and "foe" are well-defined!
Twisted logic, perhaps, but humans will generally take the "Path of Least Resistance"(TM), rather than fight EVERYONE for an abstract concept like justice. If you'd like to refute me, tell me the last time a cop shot a criminal that his friends and/or family didn't raise a hue-and-cry--and God help the cop if the criminal was a minority!

Back to the land-mines, though, there are "smart" mines, but none are "smart" enough to NOT detonate based on good or evil, only "friend" or "enemy". Land mines can be used responsibly to block a border and force enemies to come through checkpoints, or irresponsibly tossed into the middle of a road to kill people, or into a field to deny people nourishment from it! This cannot be called the landmine's fault, otherwise IEDs wouldn't blow up Americans!
quote:

ORINGIAL: Stephann
I think any suggestion of threatening to blow up people desperate to find work demonstrates just how much contempt one has for human life, and on par with ripping wings off mosquitoes.

I never suggested blowing up people desperate to find work...I suggested we blow up those who have contempt for our borders...Perhaps a discussion of boundaries, disobedience, and punishment is incongruous to a D/s site?

There are PLENTY of jobs in other countries, they don't have to invade America and take ours...If they wait long enough, the companies will take our jobs away FOR them, and relocate them to the enemy countries...HOWEVER, even you must admit that America needs some way to FORCE people to ask permission before entering our borders, much in the fashion of (to continue your insect analogies) STOMPING a cockroach, rather than taking it outside and letting it return with friends, or spraying a mosquito or termite!
Do you think that those who violate our nation are simply doing it out of their nature? If so, they must be animals...If they want to claim human status, they must take responsibility--and consequences--for their actions!

If you don't like my posts, read Popeye1250's posts...He restates my ideas with a LOT fewer words, and usually within a few minutes of mine!

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 4:02:55 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Landmines are effective for decades....They continue to kill after resolutions have been reached. The Khmer Rouge is long gone but the millions of mines that they laid are still active. 

I said they're effective...what that effect IS, depends on who lays them, where, and why...
If you TELL people to stay out of your territory (Use "you" as either a person, or as some national agency), they'll laugh at you--then violate your borders anyways...Armed guards can be killed, bribed, or look away on their own accord at JUST the wrong time! Armed robots, Americans are leery of, because they have trouble telling friend from foe (Although, again at borders, this is not a problem, anyone trying to cross at any point OTHER than official "checkpoints" is an enemy!)
HOWEVER, it is entirely possible that terrorists will use a cheap, and by definition expendable technology to cause chaos, rather than defend!

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Landmines are indiscriminate killers....Over 25% of all people wounded by land mines are children....

THAT is why they're fair...If you don't want to get blown up, STAY AWAY!
Again, terrorists can use land-mines for OFFENSE, rather than DEFENSE, but that is hardly the fault of a device so stupid it destroys itself!
Originally, landmines were meant to keep people out of a predefined area!
If you consider landmines by their original purpose, they are a cheap, effective weapon...Which is precisely what makes them so attractive to terrorists...A "cheap shot" attack!

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
One last note, I am much more leery about the police than I am the "inner city" youths or the disgruntled high school student.  In the future it might be wise to not put honest citizen and policeman in the same sentence.  I believe that there are many people who are much more concerned about  a run in with the police over having to deal with the inner city youths and their disgruntled high school student contemporaries.
I have read a few of your prior posts.....I have never agreed or found anything of value in any of them.

By "inner city", I obviously meant drug-cartel scum, or the new cultural-exchange "Triad" branches...By disgruntled student, I meant things like Columbine, or the more recent Virginia Tech massacre.
Assault-rifles and/or land-mines may or may not get banned, but there's something about "As long as there's a demand...there'll be a supply...let's legalize it and tax it!"

In an environment with no guns (Hypothetically speaking, a school zone), the man with a gun is his own army!
In an environment with pistols (A gunfight with police, for instance), the man with an assault-rifle is "superior"!
(With apologies to Desiderius Erasmus. He's been dead for almost 500 years, so the quote I "altered" is probably public-domain by now. The original, of course, being, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King"!)

The only people who SHOULD be concerned about a "run-in" with the police are criminals...Cops may or may not be honest, but as long as they're going to die, some of them doubtless feel they should die rich and appreciated, well-paid by criminals, than to die under fire by criminals, and getting sued when they shoot back...
So basically, cops are jackbooted thugs if they DO their jobs, and Nazi Jackbooted Thugs if they do their job, and the criminal is a minority, and they're a "waste of tax-money" if they DON'T do their jobs...Why not join the scum that they are allegedly hired to fight against? At least then, "friend" and "foe" are well-defined!
Twisted logic, perhaps, but humans will generally take the "Path of Least Resistance"(TM), rather than fight EVERYONE for an abstract concept like justice. If you'd like to refute me, tell me the last time a cop shot a criminal that his friends and/or family didn't raise a hue-and-cry--and God help the cop if the criminal was a minority!

Back to the land-mines, though, there are "smart" mines, but none are "smart" enough to NOT detonate based on good or evil, only "friend" or "enemy". Land mines can be used responsibly to block a border and force enemies to come through checkpoints, or irresponsibly tossed into the middle of a road to kill people, or into a field to deny people nourishment from it! This cannot be called the landmine's fault, otherwise IEDs wouldn't blow up Americans!
quote:

ORINGIAL: Stephann
I think any suggestion of threatening to blow up people desperate to find work demonstrates just how much contempt one has for human life, and on par with ripping wings off mosquitoes.

I never suggested blowing up people desperate to find work...I suggested we blow up those who have contempt for our borders...Perhaps a discussion of boundaries, disobedience, and punishment is incongruous to a D/s site?

There are PLENTY of jobs in other countries, they don't have to invade America and take ours...If they wait long enough, the companies will take our jobs away FOR them, and relocate them to the enemy countries...HOWEVER, even you must admit that America needs some way to FORCE people to ask permission before entering our borders, much in the fashion of (to continue your insect analogies) STOMPING a cockroach, rather than taking it outside and letting it return with friends, or spraying a mosquito or termite!
Do you think that those who violate our nation are simply doing it out of their nature? If so, they must be animals...If they want to claim human status, they must take responsibility--and consequences--for their actions!

If you don't like my posts, read Popeye1250's posts...He restates my ideas with a LOT fewer words, and usually within a few minutes of mine!

EGPAH:
So does this mean that you and popeye are an item?
thompson

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 4:36:31 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		No more than you and Stephann...Or for that matter, you and I!
Do you just pick on me because you like me, or because you can't think of anything better to say?
You seem to take an extraordinary amount of effort to go after ME, rather than what I've said...Is the truth as I see it that frightening?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 4:41:44 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Phil, we catch al qeada guys and we have to treat them under the Geneva Conventions even though al qeada *isn't a signatory* to the G.C's? And even though we can shoot them as spies under those same Geneva Conventions.


...yup, because we're the good guys. The alternative merely makes the children of our current enemies the enemies of our children.

quote:


Gee, makes a lot of sense to me!

They catch our guys and they're beheaded and their bodies mutilated and burned.


...yup, they're the bad guys. i'm not saying we shouldn't oppose them.....just that we ought to be smart about it.

quote:


Stephann, you're right, that's the only way to fight a war, use overwhelming force and get it over as quickly as possable!


...i do tend to agree, but that force has to be surgical. Turning Iraq into a shiny pane of glass might get short term results, but stores up all sorts of hell in the future.


Easy to say when you're not in Uniform.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 5:51:17 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Land mines are a weapon like any other intended to be used in a war.They are effective and indescriminate in their action which means anyone or anything that is unfortunate enough to step on one gets it regardless if they are a combatant or not.Personally, land mines are cowardly, but most of the war apparatus is the same, designed to cause death, maiming and horror.

It is all good to say we should ban this, that and the other, but war is war, where someone wins and in wars, anything goes to win that war.Do people honestly think that if something is banned, it won't be used?All I can see is if something is banned, various countries forces will go to longer lengths to hide their activities.

It would be better to say, ban war.

As to beauty pageants, though not my thing, I will not condemn anyone that chooses to display themselves if they choose to do so of their own free will.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/21/2007 8:18:06 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Landmines ideally don't kill people.
They are meant to *deny access* to an area.
But, like the saying goes "you fuck with the bull, you get the horn."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 8:54:48 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Easy to say when you're not in Uniform.


....fair comment, but there's a reason they're called the armed services. The civilian population don't exist to serve the military, it's the other way round and no-one ever said it would be easy.

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 9:08:33 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Easy to say when you're not in Uniform.


....fair comment, but there's a reason they're called the armed services. The civilian population don't exist to serve the military, it's the other way round and no-one ever said it would be easy.


True but why wouldn't our guys be able to expect protection under the Geneva Conventions if we give it to al qeada.
If you're not a signatory to the G.C. you shouldn't be protected under them.
A lot of people say the U.S. doesn't obey the GC's anyway so let's get out of them.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 9:13:01 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		I also believe America to be the only nation to put its soldiers on trial DURING the fighting, rather than AFTER!
No wonder they're so stressed out...They want a war where they only have to worry about the enemy, rather than overzealous persecutors--er--PROSECUTORS--back home!

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 9:14:56 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Easy to say when you're not in Uniform.


....fair comment, but there's a reason they're called the armed services. The civilian population don't exist to serve the military, it's the other way round and no-one ever said it would be easy.


True but why wouldn't our guys be able to expect protection under the Geneva Conventions if we give it to al qeada.
If you're not a signatory to the G.C. you shouldn't be protected under them.
A lot of people say the U.S. doesn't obey the GC's anyway so let's get out of them.


.....think this is probably one of those times, Popeye, where we'll have to agree to disagree...(it's ok, i'm keeping a list )....my take on it is that this is one of those difficult things i referred to earlier. Yup, AQ is not observing the GC (or, indeed, the Koran), but if we then follow suit it becomes difficult to draw a line between AQ and the USA. As i've said earlier i believe this conflict to be, primarily, a culture war. If we abandon the basic tenets of our culture in order to take a quick military win we lose the war while winning a battle.

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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 9:16:39 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Landmines ideally don't kill people.
They are meant to *deny access* to an area.
But, like the saying goes "you fuck with the bull, you get the horn."


Bull...They are designed to mame...Many landmines are not designed to be lethal but to pack enough of a wallop to remove or ender a limb worthless....It is military strategy to realize that if you kill a guy they will leave or bury him and move forward....If you blow a guys leg off it will take two soldiers to remove him from the line to seek out medical care.

The U.S has not utilized mines since the Gulf War and hasn't manufactured them in well over a decade.  It is a cowards ploy to utilize them in a fashion other than to protect a border.  Even then political tides may shift and very few military forces take the time to mark every spot where they laid a mine.

The idea that someone would even harbor the idea that it might be a good idea to mine our border is someone who is unable to grasp the factors that lead to people crossing our borders illegally.  If you want to blow up someone, seek out the politicians who allow this to flourish because they are all to aware of the financial impact that would occur if the illegals were removed from this economy.

Maybe it would make you feel better if you were to place some mines in front of soup kitchens or shelters....How are these folks benefiting this great land of ours?

_____________________________



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RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 9:25:29 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

I also believe America to be the only nation to put its soldiers on trial DURING the fighting, rather than AFTER!
No wonder they're so stressed out...They want a war where they only have to worry about the enemy, rather than overzealous persecutors--er--PROSECUTORS--back home!


Its the same in the UK Egpah, usually politically motivated as well. Some low level officer just to appease the press.

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 9:46:39 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
I also believe America to be the only nation to put its soldiers on trial DURING the fighting, rather than AFTER!
No wonder they're so stressed out...They want a war where they only have to worry about the enemy, rather than overzealous persecutors--er--PROSECUTORS--back home!

Its the same in the UK Egpah, usually politically motivated as well. Some low level officer just to appease the press.

Bingo, PoliteSub, even if they came up with the "brilliant" idea to torture enemies to save friends, and/or figured out HOW, they'd need someone higher up to authorize the expenditure of military "resources" (including time, not just physical things like the batteries and clamps!) on it...
One of the Americans even said that a certain General was in on it, but to indict a General is to indict the Government directly; the grunts are expendable...But all this overlooks the more important question: Why PROTECT the ENEMY?
"The Essence of war is Violence. Moderation in war is imbecility!" --John Arbuthnot Fisher, Royal Navy 1841-1920

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Miss Landmine - 11/22/2007 10:04:17 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

I also believe America to be the only nation to put its soldiers on trial DURING the fighting, rather than AFTER!
No wonder they're so stressed out...They want a war where they only have to worry about the enemy, rather than overzealous persecutors--er--PROSECUTORS--back home!

EPGAH:
Once again you exhibit a lack of knowledge of the facts that is beyond belief.
Perhaps a quick perusal of "Soldiers of Destruction" isbn 0691052557.  It is the story of the "SS Totenkopf"  The book tells and extensively footnote numerous instances of soldiers being tried and punished during combat.  Some were even incarcerated in the same concentration camps with the Jews that they had originally been charged to guard
thompson

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 40
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