RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 3:24:40 PM

ownedgirlie

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LOL Charlotte, thanks for a great post :)

Regarding balancing the dark and the light...for me the struggles were no longer a part of the darkness but a part of the light. The darkness was where my demons resided, and the struggles pretty much resulted in obliterating those guys :)

I am happy for the excitement you are finding in your path, and wish you more wonderful self discovery in the guidance of your Master.

Oh, and I hear the mystery "s" likes cages...heh.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/19/2007 3:30:03 PM

charlotte12

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Yes exactly. I don't see my struggles as part of the darkness. I too have some demons (maybe..i'm not really sure what it all is) but i find they have much less power over me when i stop fighting them and simply experience them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Oh, and I hear the mystery "s" likes cages...heh.

Hehe...that's what i thought so i figured she wouldn't mind too much. Actually i'm getting a little jealous and might lock myself in as well. Then the only difficult struggle will be to get out when we have to....ahem.....use the loo.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/21/2007 8:34:37 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Do dominants make their submissive struggle on purpose?

I dont generally make my submissive struggle on purpose. Not really my thing. I read a book once which described two partners in a military line of soldiers. The one on the left was referred to as the "left shield leader." As the line gradually moved left in the battle, this was the one in front. The one in back would be partially shielded by the one in front, as well as able to protect the non-shielded (beweaponed) side of the duo.

In a flying stunt team, the one in front leads everybody. Everybody in back watches the one in front. This is why all 5 of the Blue Angels cratered a few years ago. The one in front flew into the ground, and the rest followed suit.

This is how I see my dynamic. I am the left shield leader. I have a role. She has a role. These are not identical, but complementary. Making her struggle would, in my mind, detract from her ability to fulfill her role.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/21/2007 9:06:25 PM

RRafe

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from george orwell's 1984:

He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: ‘How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?’
Winston thought. ‘By making him suffer,’ he said.
‘Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many women with slave tendencies have expresed to me, that only the struggle made it seem to be real. That is was almost impossible to submit to a man who could not stay a step ahead.

Who could not challenge them, or who had no point beyond he could not be pushed.

That suffering taught them that they could overcome. And they could, and not be set up to fail.

And that someone could actually take them, and the dynamic seriously enough to make it happen.

< Message edited by RRafe -- 11/21/2007 9:07:55 PM >

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 8:22:32 AM

juliaoceania

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My experience with WIITWD is that one should be very careful with what they demand from another human being, because if that human being has their limits exceeded that can be extremely destructive to the dynamic. I would say that setting up a situation that intentionally challenges a person to possibily fail can be extremely detrimental to a relationship. Of course this point of view has come with my own experiences of being set up to suffer and to fail. I grew as a result, I either outgrew the relationship or the relationship had to change the accomodate my growth. I would just suggest that before dominants play in these waters they look for objects that can break their neck at the bottom of the pool if they decide to take a nose dive. The results of such experiments are rather unpredictable... and life gives us enough suffering without intentionally creating more.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 8:38:29 AM

RCdc

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I will try and answer each question asked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am curious to know if those of you that have went through struggles in your dynamics found growth through them, or if you believe struggling is just something to be avoided?

Sometimes there was growth, sometimes not. Is struggling to be avoided? - Sometimes - sometimes not.

quote:

Do any d-types make their s-types struggle intentionally so as to foster growth in them?

No. I would really question anyone who did.

quote:

If you are an s-type have you found growth because your d-type created situations that caused you to struggle?

No.

quote:

Do dominants make their submissive struggle on purpose?

I'm sure some do. I would question it however.

quote:

As a submissive have you benefitted from struggles that your dominant made for you?

I would not be with a dominant who purposefully caused 'struggles' as I don't see it as a healthy objective.

It could be that we just do not agree on the word 'struggle' - and I am aware of that - but I can only answer as the word applies to me. The whole scenario implies that the dtype is making the stype suffer to cause growth. Growth isn;t something that can be achieved through suffering alone, and really - who is going to 'make' the d-type 'suffer'? If the answer is not the submissive, or no one - then how does a dominant grow?

the.dark.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 8:42:22 AM

RRafe

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Doing things one finds difficult can be seen as suffering. We all have to do this at some point in our lives. Some will become stronger by getting through it, others will be destroyed by it.

Who can say which will happen? Hopefully,a Top who challenges a sub will set her up with something he knows she can do. Not just something that she will suffer for-for nothing.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 8:50:17 AM

RCdc

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Challenging a s-type is different to making one suffer. Like I said to julia, it is quite possible that I simply do not use the same words has her - which is why I would question a dominant who wanted to make anyone 'suffer' (well - unless it was a S/m relationship).
Not trying to be pedantic, just dislike the connotations the word 'suffer' implies.

the.dark.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 8:53:38 AM

RRafe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Challenging a s-type is different to making one suffer. Like I said to julia, it is quite possible that I simply do not use the same words has her - which is why I would question a dominant who wanted to make anyone 'suffer' (well - unless it was a S/m relationship).
Not trying to be pedantic, just dislike the connotations the word 'suffer' implies.

the.dark.

Shrugs............I just happen to have known women with masochistic streaks who got off on feeling thier top could be willing to make them do unpleasant things-or make them suffer.

If everything went thier way-all the time. It didn't feel like real control. Make a bit more sense?

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 8:57:20 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Shrugs............I just happen to have known women with masochistic streaks who got off on feeling thier top could be willing to make them do unpleasant things-or make them suffer.

If everything went thier way-all the time. It didn't feel like real control. Make a bit more sense?

It made sense the first time yes - which is why I singled out S/M relationships out of the equasion in my post, simply because suffering could be part of their dynamic.

But that still leaves the question in my head - who aids the dominant 'suffer' to aid their growth?

the.dark.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 9:01:29 AM

RRafe

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Putting someone you care about through this can also be a distinctly unpleasant experience. Especially when they make you realize it's about the only thing that is going to let them progress. It seems that some people hit barriers to places that they want to go-and they just can't manage to feel them out to get past that. They need to be pushed a bit.

All you can do is try different things,communicate as best you can,and watch the results of what you are doing. It's far from easy-or some silly game.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/22/2007 9:18:58 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Putting someone you care about through this can also be a distinctly unpleasant experience. Especially when they make you realize it's about the only thing that is going to let them progress. It seems that some people hit barriers to places that they want to go-and they just can't manage to feel them out to get past that. They need to be pushed a bit.

All you can do is try different things,communicate as best you can,and watch the results of what you are doing. It's far from easy-or some silly game.

I completely get what you are saying RRafe, and we agree - I simply do not see it as 'suffering'. A challenge, painful, corrective, maybe - but suffering? No.

the.dark.

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RE: To Struggle or Not To Struggle, That is The Question - 11/23/2007 6:55:48 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

This is true, yes. He held up that mirror and made me see the truth - be it good, bad, funny, beautiful, ugly, ridiculous - whatever. Once I could look at myself and say "OK I like that, but I don't like this..." I could accept the reality of "what is" and it was OK. Then I could decide who and what I wanted to be, or needed to be. He gave me the paintbrush and said "Go for it - choose your colors, choose your picture - what is it you want? Create it!" and then he guided the artist in creating the masterpiece that was in her mind. The funny thing is, he had his own vision for me but said I have painted beyond that. In my quest for discovery, I am constantly exclaiming, "What happens if we turn over this rock???" He guides me on my path to myself by whatever means he sees necessary. Sometimes it's by gently tossing me out of the nest saying "Fly!" and sometimes it's by grabbing the leash tightly, saying, "Heel." But he has never limited who I wanted and needed to become. And the most amazing thing to me is how fulfilled HE is in the results.

.

I thought this was lovely, someone who is willing to teach you to fly and how to create the life you want,... there is nothing more lovely or loving than that

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