RE: Partings and ponderings (Full Version)

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MaamJay -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 5:04:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I am a submissive and I completely disagree with first statement. If the dominant wants the submissive to change certain behaviors, then the dominant and the submissive should negotiate this before collaring occurs. There maybe things that the submissive does not perceive as negative that the dominant does, and there should be a complete understanding of what will have to change before the collar goes on the neck.


Just want to clarify there WAS no collar ... this was in the getting to know you period and early on too. W/we termed it under consideration because that was a convenient way to express that in her first visit she had passed the first hurdle in terms of generally being comfortable to be around and so training was now to formally commence. Collaring, if it occurred, would have been 1-2 years down the track!

And to julietsierra, no I am not stupid enough to think that habits can be broken overnight ... research shows it takes at least 21 days and I expected it to take longer. That's why I gave the example of my sub side battling with my involuntary rocking habit for over 3 years now! However, i began working on it as soon as Master pointed it out, and achieved at least a 50% reduction within the first 2 weeks. He saw progress! What I expected to see as a result of training was a GENUINE ATTEMPT to begin the process of breaking it ... and I didn't see that. she expressed the desire to change, I gave her many different strategies by which to start the process ... she did have success with one speech habit (which I expected to be the difficult one!) and I praised her abundantly, helped her work out what she did that was working in that case, and suggested she apply the same approach to other things. she did not. she admitted she was stubborn and that's what is behind this failure to translate desire into action. And as far as I know, there is no biochemical addiction to wearing shorts instead of skirts ...

Do you really think it is "hard" to wear skirts instead of shorts, and to complete a brief (maybe 2 mins at most) positive affirmation task hourly? Because frankly, I don't think it is!

Maam Jay aka violet[A] edited because the quote boxes aren't behaving themselves!



Willowmoon -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 6:19:07 PM)

Okay I understand the desire of some Masters/Mistresses to make their subs/slaves dress in a particular matter but it seems that what you are forgetting here is that people draw some of their identiy from what they wear a lot of time so perhaps asking her to wear a skirt instead of shorts was something that was hard for her. I wear skirts and dresses all the time, I hate shorts and pants of someone ordered me to wear them I would have problems with that as its just not me.

Positive affirmation tasks is also something else that can be hard for people. I have done a lot of work with people that involved teaching them about positive affirmations daily and in my experience some people do really have a hard time with it.

Just because something is easy for you and doesn't seem hard at all does not mean that it will be the same for somebody else. You said in the last week you used the tough love approach perhaps this was the problem and is what caused her to run.

Willow



adoracat -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 6:25:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay
adora cat, I am by no means inferring everyone has bad habits. But if you do ... and your Dominant points this out ... hopefully your respect for them means that you don't want to annoy them with this habit ... so you will do your best to break it and they will help. An example from my sub side ... i used to rock quite a lot, totally involuntarily, i had no idea i was doing it. Master noticed (He couldn't fail!) ... and after i'd nearly bopped my boss on the head while talking with her and He noticed her bobbing around taking evasive action ... He knew He had to mention it to me. i was shocked ... how could i be doing something that obvious and not noticing? And why hadn't someone else told me? So i asked Him to help ... to draw my attention to it so i could try to stop it. He has, very patiently ... and after 3 years the habit has 95% gone. Apparently i only tend to do it a little now when on the phone (or when i'm dying to go pee LOL!). i am greatly appreciative of His help ... and other people have braved commenting on it now i'm no longer doing it! But to achieve that success, the bad habit had to be identified and a good habit instituted ... the motivation for that was both intrinsic (i wanted to stop now i knew about it) and extrinsic (Master wanted me to stop) ... He was my coach and helper ... but i had to translate that desire/motivation into action ie controlling my body movements when alerted. All the desire in the world would have been useless without translating it into action.
<snip>

I could probably add another statement here ... submission is also in part about deliberately performing actions that are pleasing to the Dominant. OK folks, go for it, still interested in more responses!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



*nods*  there are absolutely habits, and HABITS.  Daddy just hasnt found many that really bother him about me, and i am fortunate in this.  if i did have....yes, i would be doing what i can to change them.  why?  because i wish to please him.  at the moment, i'm biting my fingernails again, and i hate it...its self-destructive, and ugly, but i cant afford the acrylics and manicures any longer, so i have to wait for the damaged bits to all grow out again, and keep everything clipped short till that happens. which frustrates me., as keeping my nails painted was part of my being able to not bite them.  ah well, in time i'll get it back under control again, especially as some other stresses lessen.

absolutely a good deal of my submission is doing things deliberately to please my Daddy.  if i didnt, he wouldnt have me as his. 

kitten, who keeps struggling and trying and so Daddy keeps being pleased.



angelslave77 -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 6:32:40 PM)

Sorry to hear it didnt work out, I will stop being slack and give you a call. I do see your point about habits, if I had any that Sir pointed out annoyed him I would do my best to correct it (actually he did say I complain about my mum to much, so I am trying hard to curtail that hehe).

I dont think what you were doing was unreasonable either especially the self affirmation task that is an excellent idea.

anyway hugs to you and I will be chatting to you soon



kyraofMists -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 6:35:52 PM)

I disagree with the first and I am not completely sure I understand the second.  Submission for me is about following someone else's will and not my own. 

I do not need to be motivated to break old habits and learn new ones.  I have to be motivated to do his will.  If his will is that I will break an old habit and learn something new, then that is what is done.

There are many times that his will coincides with what my will would be or is.  However, when you look at the motivations of my behavior, I am not doing it because I want it; I am doing it because he wants it.  Ultimately, it fulfills me to do his will though in the moment I might just grit my teeth and struggle through it.

I am sorry to hear that things did not work out, but better to find out early than after too much time and emotions are invested.

Knight's Kyra 



juliaoceania -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 7:11:20 PM)

I wanted to reiterate what others have shared in being saddened for you that things did not work out the way that you had hoped. I also wanted to add that I did realize that you did not collar this person, but I think this is the entire point of "considering" someone... to find out if the level of compatibility is indeed what is wanted.

I do not know this person, nor her issues, but I think that part of the reaction to your post is because it is a very easy thing to say "oh, this person just wasn't submissive enough", and realizing that it does indeed come down to compatibility... just like I am sure that my former did not think it was that big of a deal to demand I quit coffee when he was not the one that faced incessant headaches...

Perhaps it was just not the relationship for you, and you should feel cheered up with one aspect of it, you considered before collaring.... and it was a very good thing for you that you did.

Good luck



Twicehappy2x -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 7:44:45 PM)

 
After reading all of the thread I feel the need to jump in and leave my two cents.
 
You see I have been a party to most of the ongoing difficulties from the beginning, being a friend of MaamJay, and taking the time to befriend the submissive in question to offer a bit of guidance, after threads she started on the submissive board in search of such.
 
To start off I’d like to address the biggest issue I saw, the one that prompted this statement by MaamJay;
 
“Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.”
 
The girl in question had a very difficult time translating her expressed desire to submit into the actions of submission.
 
Now the actions required of her violated none of her hard limits, they were, each and every one thoroughly explained and discussed with the girl beforehand. She did agree to these rules before being accepted into consideration.
 
After she violated each and every one they were discussed again, and again, and again by MaamJay. And when that did not prove sufficient, if the girl needed further understanding, I spent a good deal of time trying to give her the reasons for the things asked from her. I am also aware of at least one other long time, well respected poster who has been counseling the submissive in question.
 
She started a thread about the skirts problem, many of you posted on this thread telling her the dress codes they adhered to. Most of the posters confirming the information that dominants liked women in skirts due to the increased sense of vulnerability experienced by the submissive, and the constant instant availability for the dominant.
 
Now rather than get too personal by giving out the reason expressed as to why the standing dress code of skirts was broken I want to pose a question to everyone.
 
How many of the submissives here would, on a daily consistent basis, disobey their Master’s orders to be in a skirt?
 
Of the dominants here what would your reaction to this disobedience be?
 
And in truth, that is only one example. The meat of the matter lay in the fact that whilst professing much desire to be in this relationship, the submissive involved dug in her heels and blatantly refused to do most of what was asked of her. On numerous occasions I witnessed her inability to give so much as a yes or no answer to the simplest of questions. Answering with excuse me, or pardon, or worse yet with “bloody fucking hell …….”.
 
I can tell you she was not asked to do anything out of the ordinary, certainly not anything she had not witnessed MaamJay do in her alternate ego as violet did in service to her Master.
 
 
“Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.”
 
This may be true for some of us for others it may not be. Many of us have the strength of will to make positive changes in our lives, some do not.
 
 In this case the person involved did request help in breaking some fairly self and relationship destructive behaviors. Again, this was also a topic that she started a thread about.
 
Much discussion ensued, much help offered, yet a task as easy as reciting a statement of self affirmation was too much work for the submissive to do.
 
Any dominant, any vanilla person for that matter can offer advice, counseling, suggestions, a hand to hold and a shoulder to cry on. But it is entirely up to the person requesting or needing these things to use them to their advantage.
 
 I like the girl; I think she has a good personality and much potential, after she takes the time to correct these issues. Until then, due to the nature of the issues, to be honest I cannot see her maintaining even a vanilla relationship, much less a M/s one.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 8:50:40 PM)

I sympathise with your problems here, Ma'am Jay, and I am sorry the new girl didn't work out for you.  But, that is what the consideration period is for.

After thinking about it, I have to disagree with your first statement completely, and your second one provisionally.   I am having to edit as I write here, since I find that my feelings are much stronger than I thought at first!

It is absolutely reasonable to have dress codes, behavior expectations, and chores/tasks for your slaves and submissives.  I do not think it is reasonable, or even that it should be part of a D/s dynamic, to "remake" a person in some other image, even if it is an image that they ask for.  People are not projects that need fixing, and if they do need fixing (meaning if they have more than the normal range of damage) then it is not for an untrained person to decide to patch them up "their way".

I will not debate whether the proper role of the dominant is to "help" the submissive do whatever.  I am a caretaker/rescuer personality, and it took me a lot of practice to lose that habit!  It is very tempting to say, Here, this worked for ME now you try it!  (Twelve steppers are genius at that kind of thing.)  To say that it's all a matter of will is fine, but we are all made of different steel, and my will is not an expression of my dominance, it is a part of my character.  If I was a submissive, I think that my will would be just as strong.  It's part of ME, and while I might do something to please another person, the things I do to improve myself are for myself.

Following an appropriate dress code, well I think that a sincere submissive should be able to handle that.  As a lady who wears dresses and skirts 95% of the time, I have to wonder wher the notion of "vulnerability" comes in, but that's neither here nor there.  I know that if a person wanted to serve me and couldn't handle something really basic like that, there are some real issues with that person's submission.   I know that if someone asked me to recite some affirmation every hour I would think that they were bonkers.  That is just not the kind of thing that works for me.  Would I do it to please my hypothetical dominant?   Sure, I'd give it a spin.  And after a few days, I would be asking WTF?  and expecting a damn fine answer.

Ma'am Jay, we've never met, but I have enjoyed your posts very much.  You seem like a person who is good to know, and I can see how you would attract good and interesting people.  Is it possible that this girl just got a crush on YOU and thought that submission was the way to get you?  I am just tossing this out as a "possible".  Another spin is that she is having a hard time with the reality vs. the fantasy of submission.  Real submission takes serious guts, as you well know. 

I am a person who believes in power exchange, not power struggle.  I think you've taken the right course here, and I hope things work out for you in the future. 

and ps---I taught myself to stop clenching my teeth years ago, and can still stop myself within less than a second if I feel the reflex begin, so I DO believe in the whole "will" thing.  I heart G Gordon Liddy!



adoracat -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/17/2007 9:37:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x
 
Now rather than get too personal by giving out the reason expressed as to why the standing dress code of skirts was broken I want to pose a question to everyone.
 
How many of the submissives here would, on a daily consistent basis, disobey their Master’s orders to be in a skirt?
 
Of the dominants here what would your reaction to this disobedience be?
 
And in truth, that is only one example. The meat of the matter lay in the fact that whilst professing much desire to be in this relationship, the submissive involved dug in her heels and blatantly refused to do most of what was asked of her. On numerous occasions I witnessed her inability to give so much as a yes or no answer to the simplest of questions. Answering with excuse me, or pardon, or worse yet with “bloody fucking hell …….”.
 


i agree, twice, that i am not privy to the details of why the relationship did not work...and its not my business.  i addressed the original post as my opinion, as to my experience with my current relationship.

absolutely if i chose to argue with Daddy about every little thing he asked me to do, he would be WELL within the boundaries of our agreement to kick me to the curb!  if Daddy wanted me in a skirt...by golly i'd be in one.  every damned day, unless i had presented a specific activity that i really needed to be wearing pants for...then i'd be back in the skirt/dress once that activity was finished.  the idea is that i surrender to his wishes.

they dont have to make sense to me, although i would probably question his sanity should he ask that i wear a bikini to the mall.  first of all for thinking i'd have one, and second of all for asking that i inflict that on others.  [sm=hair.gif]  tis not the point, he asked.  i'm quite allowed to ask why on occasion....but i am to surrender my will to his.  its really easy to be all enamoured of the idea of submission, but its the actual WORK of it that counts.

and MaamJay, i'm really sorry that this didnt work out for you, and that you ended up hurting.  that sucks, and i feel the 'tard in not saying it in my first post.  *kicks self*



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 12:06:28 AM)

I'm not sure I think Twice's specifics were appropriate in terms of outing someone- but it seems that a lot of people did a lot of talking to the gir- did anyone really listen to her?  Did anyone really try to get in her head and see where she was coming from?  It seems obvious the problem was a lack of internalization and trying to make it work when it clearly wasn't compatible.

A s-types issues rarely have to do with INTENTIONS and desires, it's almost always in the training, follow through and communication.



MissMagnolia -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 12:25:01 AM)

Having previously spoken to Ma'am Jay and her girl in private, I am very sad to hear that this didn't work out. Ma'am Jay is a wonderful woman and it's my feeling that it all happened at a very difficult time for the girl, when there was much upheaval, physically and emotionally.

Perhaps it was bad timing, but whatever the reason, I wish both well in the future.

Hugs to Ma'am Jay. xx



camisra -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 12:42:05 AM)

I have silently sat back and read all the thread, the majority has felt bad for the hurt that the OP is going through, what about the sub? Don't you think that she would be hurting at the loss as well?  I should know I have the courage to come forward and say I am that sub who was under consideration.
In all fairness and respect to MaamJay I will not reveal as to what actually happened however, from what I have so far read I don't need to say anything its already been said by a poster, no offence to be taken to the one who posted, but there is  major discrepancies in your post. 

I now feel like I have been hit on the head with a sledge hammer, not bad  considering on the otherside I recieved a nice message from you including the following offer:  "When you decide to go forward or to try again, i will again offer my help." 
 
To LuckyAlbatros thank you for pointing out about hearing what someone has to say, there is a difference between hearing and listening.

Likewise to MissMagnolia Your 100% accurate about physically and an emotional upheaval, given I was home less than 24hrs after MaamJay's and my first meeting which went beautifully, I found out I was to have a total hysterectomy ASAP, as it was well documented on other threads that due to the flu epidemic my surgery was postponed, hence a second visit to try and destress, under the circumstances my heart was in it but my head wasn't.
The third visit was for five weeks to help in my recovery so I wouldn't do anything stupid, and to learn the lesson of how to recieve help gracefully instead of giving all the time.

In closing all I can say is There is defitnatly two sides to every story.

And if I could turn back the hands of time I defitnatly would..

camisra



laurell3 -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 2:18:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Sadly, the fem sub who has been under consideration as a potential 24/7 for Master and Myself has chosen to withdraw herself from that consideration, as she feels unable to submit to Me, or live by My rules. That extended from living by My chosen dress code to performing a positive affirmation task designed to help her break old habits and promote new ones ... and everything in between. While things were up and down while she was here as My journal indicates (and she lived with Us for 9 out of the past 17 weeks in 3 "chunks"), once she went home she abandoned everything. Now I don't want to get into another bitch session about the validity of consideration. Suffice to say it has worked here because that is the name We choose to use for the "getting to see if this is going to work" period! That's not the point of this post.

In My summation to her, I used 2 phrases about submission:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.
 
Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

I am interested in seeing how many Dom/mes and subs agree/disagree with those phrases. They are not intended to entirely encapsulate submission ... for example, I would add that it involves more than doing what the sub always prefers. But I would like to know how many others would use similar phrases to describe aspects of submission. Over to you guys!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]




Honestly I have a therapist that I don't have sex with.  I've never had any desire to have a partner attempt to practice any "fixing" of me and find the notion that a submissive has to accept it as odd.  Give and take and adapting is part of any relationship, working on small issues and negotiating differences of course, but having another person dictate what they believe to be my "bad habits" and how I function in every day life is not something I desire.  I have a very good idea what my bad habits are and work to change them and am upfront about them with prospective partners. 

In order to change someone, the person has to be willing, have the present ability to deal with it(change is stressful and hard for adults) and the other one has to truly listen and see what the person is about and why they have the behavior.  Few are actually willing or able to do that with any competence.  It seems from the posts by both the D and s here communication in this situation was lacking despite the best motives otherwise.  That's exactly why I don't ever go here.  What one may believe is "helpful" may be quite disastarous under the circumstances and detrimental to the relationship.



MissMagnolia -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 4:10:34 AM)

I didn't go into detail camisra, as I wasn't sure how much you had, or wanted, to reveal about that time. But, as you are being open about it, I think your emotions, hormones and the sheer physical trauma of major surgery would have affected you greatly. That's why I said it was probably bad timing, which is terribly sad for all concerned.

In hindsight (always such a great thing, it's a shame we can't have the same accuracy iwith foresight!!), I think you both can probably agree it might have been best to wait. I know you both tried very hard to make it work. But, it happened and it can't be changed now.

Onward and upward to you both!![:)]



Twicehappy2x -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 4:44:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not sure I think Twice's specifics were appropriate in terms of outing someone- but it seems that a lot of people did a lot of talking to the gir-


Hello LA and how are you doing in your new hometown?

If you go read MaamJay's journal and camisra's threads, you will see that i revealed nothing in my post that was not already posted in public.
 
As to the question of whether or not the submissive was really listened to, in all honesty i can say she was. 
 
I believe she loved MJ, i also believe MJ truly cared for her and did her utmost to help her past her issues. I personally suggested some private professional counseling when i saw just how deep seated these issues were, i know MJ did as well. This suggestion was rejected.
 
I can wholeheartedly agree with this statement;
 
"A s-types issues rarely have to do with INTENTIONS and desires, it's almost always in the training, follow through and communication."
 
But i must add that the training, follow through and communication only work if the submissive involved takes an active role in cooperating with them.
 
Like i said in my original post, you can hand a person all the tools in the world, it is up to them to pick them up and use them.
 
 



Twicehappy2x -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 5:08:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camisra

I have silently sat back and read all the thread, the majority has felt bad for the hurt that the OP is going through, what about the sub? Don't you think that she would be hurting at the loss as well? 


Sweet, if folks knew you were on here they would have consoled you as well. MJ is a well known familiar face on the boards and many would be inclined to stop in and read a thread she started and offer sympathy, nothing personal intended in this toward you.
 
quote:

what I have so far read I don't need to say anything its already been said by a poster, no offence to be taken to the one who posted, but there is  major discrepancies in your post. 


If you feel there are discrepancies, i will ask you to list them. I will be more than happy to correct any you find.
 
quote:

there is a difference between hearing and listening.


This too goes both ways.

quote:

  I now feel like I have been hit on the head with a sledge hammer, not bad  considering on the other side I received a nice message from you including the following offer:  "When you decide to go forward or to try again, i will again offer my help." 


Have i withdrawn my offer of continued assistance or friendship? I believe i ended my post as follows;

" I like the girl; I think she has a good personality and much potential, after she takes the time to correct these issues. Until then, due to the nature of the issues, to be honest I cannot see her maintaining even a vanilla relationship, much less a M/s one."
 
Now, let me ask you, in my letters to you did i pull any punches regarding the specific behaviors i saw? Did i publicly enumerate the specifics here, with the exception of information that either you (in your threads) or MJ (in her journal) had previously made public?
 
I stated what i saw, i did not condemn you. I did state your actions or lack thereof were inappropriate for a submissive who was trying to please. I really do like you as a person. I also do think you are dealing with issues that made submission impossible for you at this time.
 
I have to tell you, those who know me, who call me friend, know damn well if they come to me with any question, ie,"does my ass look fat in this?", they are going to get a very blunt and truthful answer. If it is no, they will hear no, you look great. But if it is yes they will hear "your ass looks like two Volkswagens trying to pass each other under a blanket".
 
The offer remains, but it is up to you to take it.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 5:14:22 AM)

quote:

Submission is, in part, about having the motivation to break old bad habits and install desired new ones.

 
disagree...the same could be said for "Dominance" or "maturity".
 
quote:

Submission and obedience requires a decision of the will that is translated into action.

 
disagree...sometimes submission/obedience is an automatic, knee-jerk reaction that requires no "decision of the will" or translated action.
 
quote:

...it involves more than doing what the sub always prefers.

 
disagree...some subs prefer to submit and obey and that is all that is required of them, so there is no "more than" to be concerned with.
 
quote:

... submission is also in part about deliberately performing actions that are pleasing to the Dominant.


disagree...with the "in part".  submission can be ALL about deliberate actions that please Him, and nothing more.



KatyLied -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 5:17:16 AM)

Camisra, I hope you will take some time and consider everything that has happened.  Also remember that everything is not on the submissive's shoulders.  The dominant should provide an environment in which you want to submit.  Not all can do this.  Not all can do it for specific submissives.  It may a matter of incompatibility, and this speaks to the partners, not to the inability of one to submit or to the inability of one to dominate.  I don't know the sort of environment you require in order to find comfort in wearing skirts all of the time and practicing affirmations.  But you need to understand that if you are going to pursue a D/s relationship, you will be expected to bend to the will of another, and you need to decide if this is something you are able to do.



juliaoceania -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 6:14:52 AM)

I would second what katy has said, and add that sometimes being submissive to someone takes a backseat to our physical health. Having any hormonal problem can lead to great emotional ups and downs, and perhaps The Powers That Be know what is best for you right now, which is not to be submissive to anyone until you heal

I am sorry for your pain and all of your health issues, and I hope you are better soon. Not every dominant sort can be understanding of health issues



chellekitty -> RE: Partings and ponderings (11/18/2007 6:36:54 AM)

no matter what our orientation, Dominant, submissive, Master, slave, switch, or purple headed giraffe....we are all human first....and humans have human problems...homonal fluxuations, surgeries, common colds....and sometimes we just can't act how we want to act or how we need to act...and it sucks...but it is...

good luck to both of you in the healing you need to do, both physical, emotional, and spiritual, because i feel that you have to be healed in all areas to be healthy...

chelle



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