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RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 2:26:50 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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FR: honestly the number is not known and even the labels vary widely amongst people.

To suggest that one is somehow a greater commitment without knowing the paticular relationship and people is ridiculous.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 21

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 2:35:07 PM

Squeakers

Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

I am not a sub..never was a sub...never will be a sub. Subs are elongated bread rolls filled with deli meats and cheeses and can be purchased at Blimpies or Quiznos.

I submit to Master Archer, as his slave. I do not have a natural submissive personality.

Cool, I must be from Quiznos because it's way more expensive than Blimpies.

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 22

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 2:36:32 PM

darchChylde

Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
Status: offline

i am a submissive and have no intent to ever see myself as a slave, though i my opinion those terms differ only in the matter of perspective and your own personal definitions... i just don't care for the term slave being used in regards to any person (note: this is my opinion and only and not intended to disparrage anyone else's beliefs or lifestyle choice)

this may change were Ma'am ever to decide that She wanted a slave instead of a submissive; i don't know how willing i'd be to take on the label of slave, even if it changed nothing in our relationship but my title... as much as i love Ma'am and am devoted to Her, if it came down to "slave or nothing"; it wouldn't be an easy decision to make and i hope that i never have cause to find out how i would decide

_____________________________

I'm the man your mother warned you about...
if only to keep me to herself.

I'm a male dominant switch whose experienced as a poly sub to a dominant woman
.
Where the fuck do I post?

Proud Owner and Protector of chyldeschylde.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 23

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 2:48:36 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

I thought this had been beaten to death by now.
Both my boys are slaves. They identify that way. I would love them and treat them the same if they were submissives and not slaves. They would be just as owned and collared if they were submissives and not slaves. The letters after the "s" dont matter to me, the relationship with the person does.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to darchChylde)

Post #: 24

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 2:57:38 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

i am a submissive and have no intent to ever see myself as a slave, though i my opinion those terms differ only in the matter of perspective and your own personal definitions... i just don't care for the term slave being used in regards to any person (note: this is my opinion and only and not intended to disparrage anyone else's beliefs or lifestyle choice)

this may change were Ma'am ever to decide that She wanted a slave instead of a submissive; i don't know how willing i'd be to take on the label of slave, even if it changed nothing in our relationship but my title... as much as i love Ma'am and am devoted to Her, if it came down to "slave or nothing"; it wouldn't be an easy decision to make and i hope that i never have cause to find out how i would decide

At the beginning of my relationship with my Lord I had trouble adjusting to being called a slave...the word had so many negative connotations in my mind. But he pretty much told me it was 'slave or nothing' - but he also explained what a slave was to him. He doesn't see me as subhuman or in any way inferior to him - he sees me as his owned property.

I totally understand where you're coming from but from someone who has been there...I hope that you don't have to make that decision but if you do, please don't let semantics get in the way of love. Just be proud of who you are, and who you belong to - and let your Mistress define what the term means. What anyone else thinks a slave is means nothing...they don't own you. She does.

(in reply to darchChylde)

Post #: 25

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 3:18:06 PM

MstrDennynSlave

Posts: 181
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline

When I first met with Master, he told me he wanted to make me his slave. I was an unhappy Domme. I didnt identify with the sub/slave realm, but did have some submissive tendencies. I've now been happily collared and owned for 6 months. This slave identifies completely as a slave, to anyone who wants to know and cares to ask.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 26

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 5:38:38 PM

AEslaveM

Posts: 126
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

Me, Too! What they said................

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M

(in reply to GentleLee)

Post #: 27

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 8:07:58 PM

MRandme

Posts: 661
Joined: 9/24/2007
Status: offline

i started out as my Master's sub. He was introducing me to the whole enchilada -- i had been vanilla before -- so i had no idea what to call what i felt. Even the first time we played, while i was in subspace i felt as if i could refuse Him nothing. He could have asked/told me to do anything and i would not have hesitated.

i enjoyed being His sub but felt like something was lacking, an indefinable, unnamable thing that made it seem incomplete. i wanted more, but more what? More of His control, more structure, more of a sense of belonging.

Several weeks ago, after discussing what it would mean and what the effects of the change would be, i became His slave. For the first time in my life i have a place where i am free to be myself, my whole self. There is nothing i could do (that i would do, as He reminded me) that would cause Him to send me away. i feel no fear when His hands are on my throat or his knife is tracing across my skin. i have never felt so confident in my place, nor as content.

From the beginning, He had said that i was naturally submissive and that i would probably be happier as a slave. He was right.

g
devoted to MR

_____________________________

And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to AEslaveM)

Post #: 28

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 8:12:56 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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There's a difference between a sub and a slave?!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MRandme)

Post #: 29

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 8:15:15 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

Well I think we can ALL agree the words are spelled differently!!!

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 30

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 8:16:24 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

Good point. I'm just surprised no one's remarked on the difference.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 31

RE: sub/slaves - 11/12/2007 8:24:10 PM

Tigrita

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline

*Note: didn't read all replies

It seems like a lot of people see a continuum on a single scale of sub to slave, but to me they are different lines completely. I identify so very strongly with my freedom, my submissivenes comes from a place of freedom. I would not chose to be a slave and would not chose a relationship where I'd be forced to be one. Even though I may be willing and not necessarily unhappy to do all the same as a slave would, I would do them from a mindset of my freedom to choose at every moment to be there and to obey. I don't see ever choosing to step over to the other line of wanting to give up that freedom and choice, because that is what fulfills me in D/s, that freedom to choose, and chosing to submit and obey every time.

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 32

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 3:59:35 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fit2pleaseu

My take on it is that a slave gives up all rights and freedom..where as a sub works under some restrictions or have i been mislead lol.

Most folks "feel" that there is (or must be) a difference between a submissive and a slave. But the problem is in developing a definition that distinguishes between the two without relying upon concepts such as "no limits", "no rights", etc. that exist only in erotic fictional novels.

Anyone may suspend their rights and freedom for the purposes of being a submissive or slave in a power exchange relationship. But at the minimum, they all have the right to leave the relationship and reclaim their freedom, or it no longer is a consensual and no longer has anything to do with power exchange relationships or BDSM. To your credit, you didn't mention the absence of limits, but suffice to say that everyone has limits, though they may be (relatively speaking) more or less extreme (ie: one limit may be face slapping, the next may be face removal).

What's the difference between submissives and slaves? If you have the answer to this "Holy Grail" of BDSM, please do share it.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to fit2pleaseu)

Post #: 33

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 4:12:38 AM

dawntreader

Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

*Note: didn't read all replies

It seems like a lot of people see a continuum on a single scale of sub to slave, but to me they are different lines completely. I identify so very strongly with my freedom, my submissivenes comes from a place of freedom. I would not chose to be a slave and would not chose a relationship where I'd be forced to be one. Even though I may be willing and not necessarily unhappy to do all the same as a slave would, I would do them from a mindset of my freedom to choose at every moment to be there and to obey. I don't see ever choosing to step over to the other line of wanting to give up that freedom and choice, because that is what fulfills me in D/s, that freedom to choose, and chosing to submit and obey every time.

* Note: DID read all the replies...and the one above says it best to me~

Tigrita, i love the way you worded this - i agree completely. i am of the opinion that what makes my submissiveness beautiful and strong is that it is a constant CHOICE to do so when i certainly do not HAVE to. i do not NEED to submit...i do so because i choose so

peace,
j

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 34

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 7:36:15 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

*Note: didn't read all replies

It seems like a lot of people see a continuum on a single scale of sub to slave, but to me they are different lines completely. I identify so very strongly with my freedom, my submissivenes comes from a place of freedom. I would not chose to be a slave and would not chose a relationship where I'd be forced to be one. Even though I may be willing and not necessarily unhappy to do all the same as a slave would, I would do them from a mindset of my freedom to choose at every moment to be there and to obey. I don't see ever choosing to step over to the other line of wanting to give up that freedom and choice, because that is what fulfills me in D/s, that freedom to choose, and chosing to submit and obey every time.

Nicely said, Tigrita...and the part I have made bold is one of the many facets of submission that is especially appealing to me.

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 35

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 8:13:50 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Good point. I'm just surprised no one's remarked on the difference.

I don't think anyone is that dumb.

Just looking at the replies in this thread, I can see a whole lot of people pontificating, but all the answers differ in some degree or another.

Apparently, there is a difference between a slave or a sub since everyone keeps referencing it with such certainty and confidence, but any actual specifics regarding that difference is nowhere to be found. Mostly a lot of vague double talk.

I think this is one of those subject's where everyone likes to pretend they know what they are talking about, but in reality, have no idea.

Unfortunately, to have an actual idea or to adequately explain why people cross over from one label to the other, we would have to provide common and universal definitions that apply to everyone who adopts the labels.

However, the one positive to this lack of universal definitions or universal differences is that no negative can be proved to the infinite number of speculations and personal conjectures being presented in threads like these.

Everyone gets to be an expert and no one gets to be wrong!

Nietzsche would be proud.

I might as well throw in a few explanations myself....

1. A subbie got tired of the drama with her subbie friends and developed a superiority complex to cope with leaving the social group, becoming a "slave" to show how much better she is then them.
2. A former submissive met a True "online" Master with his own psycho-spiritual conjecture of the glory of the "True slave over the True submissive" and converted to his version of the One True Way as his own personal True sex slave and mindless zealot.
3. A slave met a social group of subbies and adopted the label of "subbie" to "fit in".
4. A submissive met a cliché of "True Masters" and became a "True slave" so she could spend endless hours buffing up her own ego, conversing about how great/awesome/enlightened/Masterly/slavely/BDSMly her group is then everyone else in the "lifestyle".

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 36

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 8:19:15 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

*Note: didn't read all replies

It seems like a lot of people see a continuum on a single scale of sub to slave, but to me they are different lines completely. I identify so very strongly with my freedom, my submissivenes comes from a place of freedom. I would not chose to be a slave and would not chose a relationship where I'd be forced to be one. Even though I may be willing and not necessarily unhappy to do all the same as a slave would, I would do them from a mindset of my freedom to choose at every moment to be there and to obey. I don't see ever choosing to step over to the other line of wanting to give up that freedom and choice, because that is what fulfills me in D/s, that freedom to choose, and chosing to submit and obey every time.

This is once again on one of those things that I don't quite understand.

Despite the narrations of "no limits and no rights" fantasy and "consent to non consent" and taking into account the rules of a M/S relationship are not anything enforced legally or in a court of law or by the BDSM Police of the Old Guard, but are simply the beliefs and convictions of two individuals, I am pretty sure in any relationship each individual has the freedom to choose and choses to submit and obey everytime they do.

Unless, of couse, by "consenting to non consent", slaves become non autonomous, non entities equivalent to a robot...

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/13/2007 8:20:52 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 37

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 8:42:54 AM

Tigrita

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline

Thanks dawntreader (love the handle, that's got to be my fav of the series), and CD. Good to know I'm not alone in appreciating and experiencing that point of distinction, it seems hard to get across to people a lot of the time, glad I was in the groove and got the point across well this time.

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 38

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 8:56:45 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

Discussions such as this always tend to be very emotionally charged for those who participate. I can remember in the past when I was very quick to defend something that I felt deeply. Now a days though, I prefer to just be myself and let others make their own determinations on what to label me.

If a person is living the life that they were meant to live; and are happy and content in doing so; this, in and of itself, gives them the right to call themselves anything they wish. If a bottom comes to me and says she is a slave; then as far as I am concerned, she is a slave. It matters very little if what I identify as a slave does not equal what she is calling herself. If she is happy, and content within that label; then she has earned that right to the label.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to fit2pleaseu)

Post #: 39

RE: sub/slaves - 11/13/2007 8:58:45 AM

Tigrita

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
This is once again on one of those things that I don't quite understand.

Despite the narrations of "no limits and no rights" fantasy and "consent to non consent" and taking into account the rules of a M/S relationship are not anything enforced legally or in a court of law or by the BDSM Police of the Old Guard, but are simply the beliefs and convictions of two individuals, I am pretty sure in any relationship each individual has the freedom to choose and choses to submit and obey everytime they do.

Unless, of couse, by "consenting to non consent", slaves become non autonomous, non entities equivalent to a robot...

Haha, okay, so maybe I didn't get the point across so well after all =P

I get where you're coming from MR, I agree, the consensual non-consensual thing is very muddy, but that isn't really the page I'm on. It isn't about whether that removal of choice/consent/freedom can actually exist, it is about the motivation towards that idea, or lack thereof. I can't speak for all, especially since I don't consider myself a slave, but my understanding of those who identify as a slave, is that they enjoy the idea of captivity, being owned, potentially being forced, as Xoxi said. I think her post is quintescentially how I understand slavery. I don't have that desire for captivity, that craving for security, whatever it is that motivates a slave to enjoy that collar and chain and cage. I need to come from a place of freedom. Kind of like a dog can be content and fulfilled on a leash, but a cat can't. That cat might still come home to you every day, and be right there all the time and be just as loyal, but if you try to put a leash on it, it will resent you and want nothing more than to run. I know analogies are of limited value, but I hope that kind of illustrates why I don't feel comfortable considering 'slavery' even as people see it here in the muddy consensual non-consensual aspect.

Edited for typos and clarity.

< Message edited by Tigrita -- 11/13/2007 9:11:46 AM >

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 40

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