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Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 12:16:45 PM

SugarMyChurro

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Michael Moore On US Health Care: "Why Don't We Do It Like Every Other Western Industrialized Country?" [VIDEO]
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/67195/

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Yet again made perfectly obvious: almost every politician is on the hook to the cheap labor lootocracy.

Post #: 1

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 12:33:39 PM

toservez

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We have become a nation of looking at issues in a vacuum and fear mongering. So we nitpick the problems into worse case scenarios about another country’s universal healthcare but fail to compare it to the problems of our own.

Michael Moore was dead on that half ass measures and proposals will do no good and it is going to take something big and that is too scary for most and that the profit insurance model is simply fatally flawed. Until we as a society agree to treat healthcare like education for our children, that everyone should have that right, then nothing will get done.

I always write if America is the greatest country in the world why we cannot have a system for universal health care that is better then what we have now when pretty much all other nations that are not third world have?

Universal health care is inevitable because the insurance companies and a large part of the medical industry, for which I am in and benefit from, have demonstrated their greed cannot be checked. It is just going to take until the middle to upper middle class in this country no longer have their health insurance benefits from their employer or the paycheck deduction just become too costly. Until then, the fear mongering of the unknown controls us as a society.

_____________________________

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RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 2:57:00 PM

seeksfemslave

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I am no great fan of Moore but on this issue he is absolutely right.
Its perfectly obvious to anyone with half a brain that moderately earning average families simply cannot cope when severe chronic illness creeps in by the back door.
Come on Americans who think differently show a bit of compassion for the deserving needy.

Some form of collectively financed health service is needed .....as soon as possible. If you manage to organise it so the the undeserving cant take advantage so much the better.
Big Bill Clinton and Heather tried....Gawd bless 'em. lol

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 3

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 3:07:16 PM

popeye1250

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About 3 weeks ago the congress passed a foreign aid bill of $34.6B up 290% from 10 years ago!
The 47 million people in this country who have no healthcare are helping to build hospitals in foreign countries while they do without!
Talk about assinine thinking!
Of course a lot of people in Washington make a lot of $ from foreign aid.
But, if we cut out things like foreign aid we could certainly afford universal healthcare here.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/7/2007 3:13:17 PM >

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RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 9:50:47 PM

pinkme2

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Having health insurance doesn't equal good health or access. Neither does NOT having health insurance equal poor health or lack of access. In fact, when people have their health care costs provided by others, they take worse care of themselves.

Furthermore, many of those uninsured are the young, healthy or families, all of which consume far less product (ie. health care) than they end up paying for if they had insurance. Many decide to opt out, even if offered (expensive) insurance. Why is it so expensive? Because the young and healthy pay for those that older, or less healthy.

Malpractice suits are also driving health care costs up.

So what's the left's solution? Socialized medicine, or universal "health care" (which we already have in this country) which is the worst possible solution to a problem we don't really have. Cut back on malpractice, allow people to see and pay for the real costs of their own health needs, and encourage prevention and more natural methods. When unhealthy living becomes expensive, people change their habits. Look at the effects of the cigarette taxes.

(in reply to popeye1250)

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RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 10:48:15 PM

cyberdude611

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Popeye, universal healthcare won't cost billions.....it would be in the trillions. Keep in mind the average ER visit is over $600. A stay one night in the hospital is nearly $8,000. And when you start getting into surguries....it's in the tens of thousands. A co-worker of mine had to have a heart bypass....his bill is over $60,000!!!

Keep in mind also that Hillary not only wants to insure the 47 million without health insurance, she wants to insure everyone under the government plan (including illegal aliens).

There is no way the government can manage this. Too many people and the cost is way too high. It's going to be a catastrophe.

And you being a Ron Paul supporter I am surprised you would favor universal healthcare. Ron Paul is a medical doctor and he even says government-controlled healthcare would be a disaster.

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 6

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/7/2007 11:13:13 PM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Popeye, universal healthcare won't cost billions.....it would be in the trillions

Sorry, I need to go check my notes.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/7/2007 11:14:09 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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Post #: 7

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 12:45:01 AM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Popeye, universal healthcare won't cost billions.....it would be in the trillions.

Interesting how you use for profit numbers to calculate the cost of not for profit healthcare reform.

I'd say you could reduce your wildest fears number by half or more. Healthcare profits have become basically whatever the industry wants to demand - which itself is ridiculous and not how capitalism is supposed to work at all. There's a difference between real scarcity and a de facto monopoly on health services maintained with the collusion of our congress critters.

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Post #: 8

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 2:05:07 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Popeye, universal healthcare won't cost billions.....it would be in the trillions.

Interesting how you use for profit numbers to calculate the cost of not for profit healthcare reform.

I'd say you could reduce your wildest fears number by half or more. Healthcare profits have become basically whatever the industry wants to demand - which itself is ridiculous and not how capitalism is supposed to work at all. There's a difference between real scarcity and a de facto monopoly on health services maintained with the collusion of our congress critters.

Go easy on the boy CG......When you become enveloped by network doublespeak, it's very hard to think in the proper context.

- R

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-General George S. Patton

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Post #: 9

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 2:36:31 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Having health insurance doesn't equal good health or access. Neither does NOT having health insurance equal poor health or lack of access. In fact, when people have their health care costs provided by others, they take worse care of themselves.

Furthermore, many of those uninsured are the young, healthy or families, all of which consume far less product (ie. health care) than they end up paying for if they had insurance. Many decide to opt out, even if offered (expensive) insurance. Why is it so expensive? Because the young and healthy pay for those that older, or less healthy.

Malpractice suits are also driving health care costs up.

So what's the left's solution? Socialized medicine, or universal "health care" (which we already have in this country) which is the worst possible solution to a problem we don't really have. Cut back on malpractice, allow people to see and pay for the real costs of their own health needs, and encourage prevention and more natural methods. When unhealthy living becomes expensive, people change their habits. Look at the effects of the cigarette taxes.

You are wrong on just about every count.

You don't have universal healthcare, you have a bin end emergency healthcare for the 'undeserving' and hugely over expensive healthcare for the 'deserving'. The average insured American pays twice the amount a European pays for healthcare because Americans are paying for the profits of private insurance companies on top of paying for the profits of healthcare facilities. Illness can send a your average hardworking citizen into bankruptcy, this stress can increase stress and illness and can take productive people out of the economy which costs the economy money.

As for complaining about socialized medicine, you imply that socialized medicine is worse than you have now, yet all the international statistics show European socialized medicine is far more efficient and effective than US healthcare. The US pays far more on healthcare than other industrialized countries yet it languishes near the bottom of the list for providing quality care for its citizens.

But in regard to socialized services, why not complain about socialized education, socialized law enforcement, socialized emergency services, one can go on. The idea that profit should be made out of people's misfortune of getting ill or having an accident is rather Neanderthal and not worthy of a civilized nation.

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Post #: 10

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 2:41:09 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Popeye, universal healthcare won't cost billions.....it would be in the trillions. Keep in mind the average ER visit is over $600. A stay one night in the hospital is nearly $8,000. And when you start getting into surguries....it's in the tens of thousands. A co-worker of mine had to have a heart bypass....his bill is over $60,000!!!

Universal healthcare would cost Americans less than they are paying now. As has often been pointed out in threads on this issue, Americans pay double what the average European pays for healthcare. In theory, to have the quality of healthcare the Germans have and they have a world beating system (I admit every system has problems), the average American would be left with more of their own money in their pockets.

Americans are paying enough money for a world beating healthcare system yet are being delivered a system other industrialized countries laugh at. My brother lives in America and loves the place and all things American but even he admits the American healthcare system is completely fucked and nonsensical.

Some stats.

http://www.healthcare-int.com/stats.html

Compare what the US pays and what the UK pays, Germany is inbetween. Germany has the best stats followed by the UK and then the US.

USA

Total population:298,213,000

GDP per capita (Intl $, 2004):39,901

Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/80.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002):67.2/71.3

Child mortality m/f (per 1000):8/7

Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 137/81

Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2003):5.711

Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2003): 15.2

Germany

Total population: 82,689,000
GDP per capita (Intl $, 2004): 28,075
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 76.0/82.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 69.6/74.0
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 5/5
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 112/58
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2003): 3,001
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2003): 11.1

UK

Total population: 59,668,000
GDP per capita (Intl $, 2004): 31,308
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 76.0/81.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 69.1/72.1
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 6/5
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 102/63
Total health expenditure per capita (Intl $, 2003): 2,389
Total health expenditure as % of GDP (2003): 8.0

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/8/2007 2:55:51 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 3:17:34 AM

cyberdude611

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My mother was a nurse for over 20 years. And during that span she will tell you the mess that medicare is. That government-controlled program cannot control fraud whatsoever. Hospitals are charging Medicare $20 for a bandaid and the government does nothing about it. So yes, the government will be paying "for profit" prices.

As for Medicaid...same problem. There is no follow-up. It seems every medicaid patient is being overprescribed medication. If you were to go to a pharmacy...their biggest customers are medicaid patients. They are prescribed everything you can imagine. The drug companies make money and the government pays the bill. Kickbacks maybe??

Yes, the government will pay the "for profit" price. Remember America is a capitalist nation. Every corporation, drug company, doctor, clinic, lab, and hospital involved in healthcare is out to make money. Just like any other corporation. The government pay the profits or those companies go out of business. Who determines the price tag? The market. Supply and demand. That's capitalism. And in capitalism, the government doesn't determine what it pays. You think this is the Soviet Union where the government can just throw price caps on anything it wants? LOL!!

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Post #: 12

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 3:37:48 AM

Rule

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Fast reply

I believe that my mother is slowly being murdered by her ever increasing avalanche of medication. I believe that general health would improve tremendously if all physicians were to be shot. If it was only me I would tell my mom to stop taking all that medication, return to base line and let the body find its natural balance. But that might kill her (heart) and I have a lot of siblings that would not like that. She might die any day in any case the way it is going now.

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Post #: 13

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 3:52:09 AM

SugarMyChurro

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Maybe "for profit" medication is part of the problem, eh?

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 14

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 4:03:24 AM

Rule

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The problem is that physicians are morons.

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RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 4:27:14 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

My mother was a nurse for over 20 years. And during that span she will tell you the mess that medicare is. That government-controlled program cannot control fraud whatsoever. Hospitals are charging Medicare $20 for a bandaid and the government does nothing about it. So yes, the government will be paying "for profit" prices.

As for Medicaid...same problem. There is no follow-up. It seems every medicaid patient is being overprescribed medication. If you were to go to a pharmacy...their biggest customers are medicaid patients. They are prescribed everything you can imagine. The drug companies make money and the government pays the bill. Kickbacks maybe??

Yes, the government will pay the "for profit" price. Remember America is a capitalist nation. Every corporation, drug company, doctor, clinic, lab, and hospital involved in healthcare is out to make money. Just like any other corporation. The government pay the profits or those companies go out of business. Who determines the price tag? The market. Supply and demand. That's capitalism. And in capitalism, the government doesn't determine what it pays. You think this is the Soviet Union where the government can just throw price caps on anything it wants? LOL!!

Isn't the point of capitalism that competition is supposed to provide a product at the best price relative to its quality? You seem to be saying that in the case of healthcare capitalism fails miserably which is a good reason to kick capitalism out of healthcare and provide a universal system that has proved in every industrial country provides a better service that corporate America can.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 16

RE: Olbermann and Moore on US Health Care - 11/8/2007 7:17:01 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

My mother was a nurse for over 20 years. And during that span she will tell you the mess that medicare is. That government-controlled program cannot control fraud whatsoever. Hospitals are charging Medicare $20 for a bandaid and the government does nothing about it. So yes, the government will be paying "for profit" prices.

As for Medicaid...same problem. There is no follow-up. It seems every medicaid patient is being overprescribed medication. If you were to go to a pharmacy...their biggest customers are medicaid patients. They are prescribed everything you can imagine. The drug companies make money and the government pays the bill. Kickbacks maybe??

Yes, the government will pay the "for profit" price. Remember America is a capitalist nation. Every corporation, drug company, doctor, clinic, lab, and hospital involved in healthcare is out to make money. Just like any other corporation. The government pay the profits or those companies go out of business. Who determines the price tag? The market. Supply and demand. That's capitalism. And in capitalism, the government doesn't determine what it pays. You think this is the Soviet Union where the government can just throw price caps on anything it wants? LOL!!

Explain Milk Subsidies in the context of your "in capitalism, the government doesn't determine what it pays."

Then explain the price of a bag of sugar.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 17

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