Is masochism a neurological disorder? (Full Version)

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pearlearring -> Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 5:58:35 AM)

I don't know if there are any other science geeks here, but I found this very interesting and wanted to share it with people. I hope it sparks some intelligent discussion.

I was learning about emotion theory in my biopsychology course yesterday, and was interested to discover that some neuropsychologists have studied how our internal bodily environment can elicit emotion. Say you're running from a lion. You perceive danger in your surroundings and you parasympathetic nervous system reacts in a certain way. You heart rate increases, pupils dilate, you breathe heavily and your body releases norepinephrine and endorphins (pain inhibiting neurotransmitters). According to some psychologists your brain reacts to this internal state by experiencing emotion, in this case fear (associated with acetylcholine). Of course the opposing theory is that you see the lion, feel fear, and then your parasympathetic nervous system reacts, meaning that external stimuli directly elicit emotion. It is generally believed that both theories are partially true- both internal and external states contribute to emotion.

The important thing here is that lots of emotions correspond with the same internal environment. The 'fight or flight' reactions I described all occur as responses to danger, stress, pain and sexual stimulation. The last two are particularly interesting. Pain and sex elicit the same parasympathetic reaction, but different emotions because the external environment signals that shock and fear are not appropriate reactions to sex, and that sexual gratification is not an appropriate reaction to pain.

But what if your body didn't rely as heavily on the external signals, and more heavily on internal signals? The reflexive reaction of our parasympathetic nervous system to pain and sex is very similar, so is it possible that some unique wiring in our brains causes us to mix up pain and sex until both elicit the same mixture of emotions?

Or should we adopt the behaviorist approach, the idea that we mix up 'appropriate' reactions to pain and sex due to some kind of operant conditioning? I don't buy the behaviorist approach myself. I was never abused or raped so there's no deep-seated childhood disturbance that could cause me to be masochistic. I'm more in favor of the idea of an actual neurological disorder. Not because I want to be treated for it, hell no, but because it bases what we do in scientific theory rather than Freud, who was a misogynistic cocaine abuser.

I'm interested to see what everyone thinks about this idea.

And, I'm Rebecca by the way. Hi!



submittous -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 6:10:03 AM)

We think the answer to your title is no. Human sexuality in general, kink and fetish in particular are a lot more complicated than you seem to imagine. Real sexual sadism and masochism may be the most intense and therefore complex form of sexuality... there are no simple explanations and probably no single path that gets people to those destinations. You might start with John Money's books on "love maps" for some insight.

Good luck with your studies, keep an open mind and don't rush to thinking you have answers.

Bill and Iris



hisannabelle -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 6:13:29 AM)

greetings rebecca,

what a first post :) i am always interested in things like this. i'm more of a humanities/english/art person myself (i study religion and plan to go to grad school for that) and am a bit "special" when it comes to math and science, hehehe, but i still enjoy reading/thinking about this stuff.

like a lot of things, i don't think we'll ever truly know the answer - it seems like it could be a mix of both nature and nurture to me. being raped, abused, etc. doesn't necessarily have to be the "nurture" aspect...i am sure there are seemingly unrelated experiences that can also contribute to masochism, and definitely to the desire to submit.

however, i find your argument for the whole internal versus external signals pretty convincing. i think the issue of "good pain" versus "bad pain" might make that a bit more complicated - but then again you could address that from the standpoint of if you don't enjoy all kinds of pain, are you still a textbook masochist? another issue that might have interesting implications is that some masochists do not need pain to reach sexual gratification, and some find pain gratifying in other ways and do not necessarily seek it in the context of sexual gratification, if that makes any sense. i'm not sure if that's relevant to what you are discussing here, but it popped into my brain, so i figured i would post it ;)

i also wouldn't think of it as a neurological disorder as such - not all issues of people's brains being wired differently are necessarily "disordered." but it is interesting from the biological standpoint nonetheless.

all in all, a very interesting post to start the day with :) thanks!

respectfully,
annabelle.



chellekitty -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 6:50:46 AM)

if sexual gratification were always my reaction to pain, i would readily agree, but it is not...sometimes it is, sometimes i want to smash the table that i kicked as i was walking by to pieces, and sometimes i just want to cry cause i got hurt...

unfortunately you can not seperate nurture and nature in the human psyche because they are so intertwined, and you are not the first to attempt to do so...it's actually refreshing to see this side of things, rather than "are you a submissive because you were raped and abused?"  but at the same time...you can, at best, only figure out why you are a submissive or masochist, not why all submissives or massochists are the way they are...and if you can figure that out, you've got me beat...i have stopped trying to figure out why and i just accept the way i am, at this point, for me, there is no need to answer "why?" it would just complicate things that don't need to be complicated....but don't let that stop you from searching for your answers, because i certainly did for a long time...just know when to stop if you can not find one...

good luck
chelle



NLitendLady -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 7:33:46 AM)

I applaud your application of new knowledge to your life. Just keep an open mind because many theories seem right in practice. Even Freud had some insight. Did you also know he was a homosexual pedophilic corporaphilic? (he liked to have sex with boys and with feces involved)

My theories from my peronal research and experiences would come more from a Pavlovian direction, although in most things I take an eclectic approach. There is classical conditioning as well as operant that have helped many become masochistic. In light of the fact that pain and pleasure travel the same neuropathways, it is merely a matter of training the brain to interpret pain as pleasure. Of course we do it selectively to maintain the knowledge of good pain vs bad pain.

Good pain vs bad pain is a mindset. We know pain that causes or signifies injury or disease is bad and unwanted and to be avoided if at all possible. Yet we can train ourselves to enjoy other types of pain in certain situations. Now a spanking, if for punishment is still perceived as bad pain while one received in fun and sexuality/sensuality is enjoyable.  We basically, for a lack of better term, brainwash ourselves.

Pain is wanted for many reasons such as the endorphin high similar to that which runners experience when they push themselves beyond the burning hurting pain that occurs after running too far. The body makes it's own drugs to put the pain at bay and give you a natural high. It does have similarities in the fact that the more you utilize this drug the more you deplete it and after time you need to achieve higher levels of pain to deliver that same high.

I do believe society has created some thrill seeking behaviors in many. I believe the sensory overload in today's society has caused us to need more stimulation and different types of stimulation to achieve our pleasure. Some have responded by having no or totally dead feelings or are flooded with constant emotional pain  and need something whether it be sexual pain or cutting to release those feelings or make the every day pain go away. Some need it to feel alive.

So it's a catharsis for some and a way to feel for others, a way to get high and a way to stretch our own boundaries and become stronger.

Not sure I buy nature vs nurture either due to the fact that some subs had a wonderful childhood, some were raped some were abused. Some came from controlling parents and some came from lenient parents. Some have an inherant need, part of them that craves the power exchange that they have seen signs of since childhood.

As in ALL areas of life you will find those with issues such as codependency, self destruction, and a pathological need to suffer. In most submissives these are not issues. Anything taken too far, beyond limits of safety is wrong in any lifestyle.

Now two things as far as the neurological disorder; one is if the brain is misfiring it would not be selective to only sexual or sensual pain. It would misfire in response to any pain.

As we have external stimuli that says pain is bad, we also have external stimuli that says submission is bad ie feminazis.

Another is there have been studies done that show that during orgasm (in women as men's orgasms do not as a rule last long enough to scan accurately)sections of the brain shut down, sections in the amygdala which is part of the brain thought to be involved in the neurobiology of fear and anxiety. This is an area that is believed to govern emotional control. They believe this shutting down of the sections ruling fear and anxiety may be necessary in order to have an orgasm, that it keeps stress and fear at bay.

This would shut down the parasympathetic nervous system.

I could go on for pages but will stop here. Good discussion. As you learn more you'll come up with many different theories. Experts have been studying for years and have still not come to any conclusions. Even homosexuality was considered a mental disorder until the last two DSM manuals published.

One final thought; Ds is about trust not fear. Fear stems from abuse.



OwnedShylah -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 8:03:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pearlearring

I don't know if there are any other science geeks here, but I found this very interesting and wanted to share it with people. I hope it sparks some intelligent discussion.

I was learning about emotion theory in my biopsychology course yesterday, and was interested to discover that some neuropsychologists have studied how our internal bodily environment can elicit emotion. Say you're running from a lion. You perceive danger in your surroundings and you parasympathetic nervous system reacts in a certain way. You heart rate increases, pupils dilate, you breathe heavily and your body releases norepinephrine and endorphins (pain inhibiting neurotransmitters). According to some psychologists your brain reacts to this internal state by experiencing emotion, in this case fear (associated with acetylcholine). Of course the opposing theory is that you see the lion, feel fear, and then your parasympathetic nervous system reacts, meaning that external stimuli directly elicit emotion. It is generally believed that both theories are partially true- both internal and external states contribute to emotion.

The important thing here is that lots of emotions correspond with the same internal environment. The 'fight or flight' reactions I described all occur as responses to danger, stress, pain and sexual stimulation. The last two are particularly interesting. Pain and sex elicit the same parasympathetic reaction, but different emotions because the external environment signals that shock and fear are not appropriate reactions to sex, and that sexual gratification is not an appropriate reaction to pain.

But what if your body didn't rely as heavily on the external signals, and more heavily on internal signals? The reflexive reaction of our parasympathetic nervous system to pain and sex is very similar, so is it possible that some unique wiring in our brains causes us to mix up pain and sex until both elicit the same mixture of emotions?

Or should we adopt the behaviorist approach, the idea that we mix up 'appropriate' reactions to pain and sex due to some kind of operant conditioning? I don't buy the behaviorist approach myself. I was never abused or raped so there's no deep-seated childhood disturbance that could cause me to be masochistic. I'm more in favor of the idea of an actual neurological disorder. Not because I want to be treated for it, hell no, but because it bases what we do in scientific theory rather than Freud, who was a misogynistic cocaine abuser.

I'm interested to see what everyone thinks about this idea.

And, I'm Rebecca by the way. Hi!


Very interesting... I can see both sides, the neurological disorder side and the behaviorist side.

I would think that the real answer is somewhere in the middle of the two Ideas.

I was never abused as a child ether, but I do distinctly remember times when pain that I inflicted on my self became more pleasurable then in the past. Times when a spanking from my parents felt good.

Perhaps people have different leaves at which the behaviorist theory would work, for some it takes extreme trauma, for others it takes the occasional spanking as a child? (Not that I'm agreeing with Freud in any way... that guy is he one who need thearopy lol)

What do you think?

Shylah




SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 8:24:13 AM)

 
....me-thinks that one often unexplored trigger could well be for some early traumatic childhood hospital experiences with severe pain experienced and even administered in a positive way by nurses, doctors in an effort to heal the young patient= not typical abuse, rape, or family issues per se ......and also buried in the subconscious due to the young age of the patient and severity of the experience.  Such experiences are random, not family or incident (rape,abuse) dependant, and determined only by random childhood illness episodes.



Tigrita -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 8:29:09 AM)

Fast Reply...

Yes, the conditions, locations, and neural pathways involved in stimulation by fear, anger, and sexual arousal are all virtually identical.  It is the reason scary movies are kind of sexy, not just for those of us who cop to being kinky but almost everyone; and makeup sex when you're getting over being angry is some of the best vanilla sex.  There are a lot of other factors involved so it isn't always clean cut that fear=arousal, but the pathways overlap so much it is easy to take advantage of that, and to different degrees for different poeple.



RRafe -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 8:37:06 AM)

Hi Rebecca!

Welcome to the monkey house!

Anyhow, theories never really correspond to just doing it. Everyone is a little different. Some people can eroticize pain-others just endure it-for whatever reason.

I just know it makes women I beat ass on get all stinky and moist. And horny, and begging to get stuffed. It's all fun, so I just go with what works-and try not to pick it apart.[;)]




MercTech -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 8:49:59 AM)

Hmmmm, a biochemical commonality of addicts is lower than average production of endorphins.
Could "subspace" be an endorphin high?
Is there a 12 step program for submissives ... "Whip-Me Anonymous"?

I can see the grant proposal now.... Funding for biochem lab, rack, and recruiting subbies willing to donate blood before, after, and while scening.

It is an interesting idea, but can you imagine the faces of an academic review board?

Tongue firmly in cheek,
Stefan



Tigrita -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 8:53:23 AM)

Sweet, that is just the new angle we need for our R01 proposal, thanks for the tip, we'll put you in the aknowledgements!

~ J (neuroscience grad student, the last form of true legal slavery)



MasterMataeo -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 9:02:20 AM)

pearlearing <rebecca>,,

i would have to say no it's not a disorder,, ,, unless you wantto consider many other things that we call "normal" disorders as well,,
i worked for a promanate Neurologist at one time,, and was intrigued on what was classified medicly as a disorder and what wasn't,,
as far as the fight or flight syndrom,, that can be altered to a strait fight ,, or strait Flight,, ,, <brainwashing>,, sks  mental training,,
our military knows all about it,,
and as it is ,, if it feels good do it,, you wont know untill you try it,,,,,
and if you wnat more info other than Freud,,, check out Madam Ruth,, or several books ont he subject,, even as taboo as it is ,, there are many books on it,,
as one ,, the Kama Sutra,,  one of the first ,, if not the first manual ,, to tuch base on it,, in it;s own flowery poetic way,,,
and well if Masochism is a disorder,, the so is Sadistism,,   the ying to the yang if you will
oh yeah ,, you can add an "~ism" to about anything ,,, and call it a disorder

MM 



azropedntied -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 9:10:50 AM)

Am i the only one with a problem with the terms Disorder ? like Disfunction- we have a clinical term & people are being grouped into that are non mainstream that needs to be repaired .I have heard many outside say things like kinky wierd freak not normal ,deviant and say it like they had a bowl  full of lemons .We all need fixing get in line conform to a clinical or social standard you all are not like  the majority .I for one dont wanna get in the line nor  in order nor conform to some church or clinical  and social standard , dont try and fix me i am not broken .But hey if we find this gene in our research then kinky,masochism ,sadistic behaviors  can be cured !! OOh great what a  fun place that will be .I do not want your cure for my kink nor do i wanna be " normal" i dig dressing wierd in leather and rubber ,Yeah i even like to get and  give pain with a consensual partner . So i wave my freak flag and end the rant .[;)]



NLitendLady -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 9:11:32 AM)

Everything out of the norm is a disorder until it is well understood and becomes mainstream.



pearlearring -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 9:12:16 AM)

Unfortunately, I do have this tendency to pick things apart and damn does it get me into trouble.

You guys have made some really awesome points. I agree, the nature-nurture dichotomy isn't something that needs to be picked apart for the billionth time. I think it's generally accepted that each play a role here. Along those lines, is it possible that experiences you have during your lifetime could actually cause this neurological phenomena (if it exists, there are no studies that I could find)? I mean, plasticity is a beautiful thing. That would be the ultimate nature-nurture interplay, if you could actually be taught (via operant conditioning) to desire pain on a biological level as opposed to just a mental level.

Yes, I guess disorder was the wrong term to use here. Sorry everyone, and thanks for bringing that up.

Now that some of you have me thinking along psycho-dynamic lines, I wonder if my incredibly controlling mother has anything to do with this. I like to think not.

Whip-me anonymous? I like that.



MasterMataeo -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 9:20:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pearlearring

Unfortunately, I do have this tendency to pick things apart and damn does it get me into trouble.

You guys have made some really awesome points. I agree, the nature-nurture dichotomy isn't something that needs to be picked apart for the billionth time. I think it's generally accepted that each play a role here. Along those lines, is it possible that experiences you have during your lifetime could actually cause this neurological phenomena (if it exists, there are no studies that I could find)? I mean, plasticity is a beautiful thing. That would be the ultimate nature-nurture interplay, if you could actually be taught (via operant conditioning) to desire pain on a biological level as opposed to just a mental level.

Yes, I guess disorder was the wrong term to use here. Sorry everyone, and thanks for bringing that up.

Now that some of you have me thinking along psycho-dynamic lines, I wonder if my incredibly controlling mother has anything to do with this. I like to think not.

Whip-me anonymous? I like that.



yes it is possable ,, for the decisions we make and the experiances that we have in our life is what wires our brain,,
think of it as a stroke,,, our brain  finds ways to reroute  the brain waves to best suit it's self to it;'s enviroment,,
the human being  is a being of adaptation and also of habit,, it will adapt a habit to fit the need ,, and will adapt  to create a new habit

MM



Celeste43 -> RE: Is masochism a neurological disorder? (11/6/2007 9:25:34 AM)

Take away the pain/sex combo and ask why some people love hot sauce on everything and others won't touch anything spicy? Nobody I know says loving hot sauce comes conditioning. So using that as an example, I'm saying nature, not nurture.



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