RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak......

RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (Full Version)

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RRafe -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: insistentone quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe Exactly. If we encourage things like stupid tops-how long do you think it would be before legislators would take action to make it illegal? We have enough negative press over things like this already-we really don't need more. So we warn each other, and drive off such sorts-hopefully-before they do too much damage. So instead the BDSM authority groups get so obsessive and strident about safety that they are the equivalent of the DARE program. It is not a good thing to tell the inexperienced that the world will come to an end if they don't do as they are told, if they latter go the other way and decide that those who lectured them were full of sh#t. Which is pretty much where we are with the whole SSC and RACK business, where those who have been around awhile largely ignore the standards because their life experience has taught them that they are not valid. It also assures that these same authority's the cried on about safety will not be taken seriously ever again about anything else either. BDSM protecting against attack from the wider society also weakens BDSM. This was not my point. There is a difference between ignorance and stubborn stupidity. More and more groups nationwide mentor and educate new people in safe ways to enjoy bdsm. But for those who REFUSE-and do damage in a serial manner instead-what would you suggest we do? Would you let one such top YOU?

Padriag -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:20:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists It seems this mindset of Strength in whatever form is wanted and valued within humanity... of course there is efforts to protect the weak but do we want to ? Its not strength, but rather survivability. We value those who can survive, and also those who can improve our chances of survival. Strength is often a key factor in this, so strength is often valued. Darwin pointed out that the fittest were most likely to survive, and that fitness was most often determined by the ability to adapt to change. This has become increasingly true in the modern world and its interesting to watch social values catch up. More often you see women attracted to "geeks" and TV shows which reflect this change. quote: What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result? What are your thougths? I have a great deal of patience and compassion for someone who is trying their best, even if they are failing, simply because someone making the effort will likely improve. But I have virtually no patience with someone who will not at least try. Would I give up or abandon even someone who was trying but failing... would depend on how harsh and life threatening the situaiton was. To be frank, put me in a situation with someone who's mistakes were putting my life in direct jeopardy despite their best efforts not too and I'll likely shoot them myself. Fortunately, those situations are pretty rare these days. In most other situations, given that they don't pose as much risk to myself I have proportionately more patience. Are we weakening ourselves as a society by allowing some people to survive. Absolutely, and if you want to know the brutal truth, there are people walking around today who I frankly think are a waste of skin, not to mention resources. But that's not my call, society as a whole has decided to take a different approach... for better or worse. Ultimately it will be time and circumstance that judges that choice, not I. However, let's not forget something else, as humans we have survived and risen to be the dominant species on the planet chiefly through two things... our intelligence and our predisposition to cooperate and help each other. Of the two, it is thought that the later quality is more responsible for our survival than even our intelligence. So, while in dire circumstance I could be a ruthless SOB... I'm also well aware that in the vast majority of circumstance its better to help others, because most of them will in turn help me to survive and thrive. Call it strength tempered with wisdom if you wish.

KnightofMists -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:26:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe There is a difference between ignorance and stubborn stupidity. More and more groups nationwide mentor and educate new people in safe ways to enjoy bdsm. But for those who REFUSE-and do damage in a serial manner instead-what would you suggest we do? Would you let one such top YOU? As many have already suggested there is a line or a balance that must be drawn... those that are worth "saving" or "teaching" etc and those that we are better without. Finding this line is indeed a personal choice. But, for those that become part of and active in their given lifestyle community or personal choice of this line will have an affect in our given community. In the end, our combined choices begin to average out and we find this line of the community as a whole. RRafe gives a common thought of the stupid or dangerous Tops that we as a community do indeed weed out. But then there are situations that happen recently at an event that I had attended. A person attending the event felt it was ok to bring a Minor into a vending area. What do you do? Sometimes the Weak do indeed put the whole at risk... Sometimes we need to cut the weak from the herd. The question becomes... who is the weak that needs to be cut... when do you cut them.... I liked RRafe's statement that we give compassion to those that doesn't waste it... but it is making the judge of who will waste it and how will not.... not so easy a choice at times

RRafe -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:29:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe There is a difference between ignorance and stubborn stupidity. More and more groups nationwide mentor and educate new people in safe ways to enjoy bdsm. But for those who REFUSE-and do damage in a serial manner instead-what would you suggest we do? Would you let one such top YOU? As many have already suggested there is a line or a balance that must be drawn... those that are worth "saving" or "teaching" etc and those that we are better without. Finding this line is indeed a personal choice. But, for those that become part of and active in their given lifestyle community or personal choice of this line will have an affect in our given community. In the end, our combined choices begin to average out and we find this line of the community as a whole. RRafe gives a common thought of the stupid or dangerous Tops that we as a community do indeed weed out. But then there are situations that happen recently at an event that I had attended. A person attending the event felt it was ok to bring a Minor into a vending area. What do you do? Sometimes the Weak do indeed put the whole at risk... Sometimes we need to cut the weak from the herd. The question becomes... who is the weak that needs to be cut... when do you cut them.... I liked RRafe's statement that we give compassion to those that doesn't waste it... but it is making the judge of who will waste it and how will not.... not so easy a choice at times I tend to give people a number of chances before I cut them off. But I tend not to give them chances that allow them to HARM me-or those I care about. How well they show that they can manage an opportunity-is how I decide if they are worth the effort.

KnightofMists -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:35:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I tend to give people a number of chances before I cut them off. But I tend not to give them chances that allow them to HARM me-or those I care about. How well they show that they can manage an opportunity-is how I decide if they are worth the effort. and this falls right in with what Padriag point out with "Survivability" If we view "Harm" or potential of "Harm" to be occuring... well it not a stretch to see that our Survivability is immediately at risk. But as been stated before... many don't settle just to Survive... they seek to Thrive. but, maybe taking away the ability to Thrive is in of itself Harm to a person or group/society etc. mmmmm just some more shallow thoughts to consider for the weekend

RRafe -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:43:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I tend to give people a number of chances before I cut them off. But I tend not to give them chances that allow them to HARM me-or those I care about. How well they show that they can manage an opportunity-is how I decide if they are worth the effort. and this falls right in with what Padriag point out with "Survivability" If we view "Harm" or potential of "Harm" to be occuring... well it not a stretch to see that our Survivability is immediately at risk. But as been stated before... many don't settle just to Survive... they seek to Thrive. but, maybe taking away the ability to Thrive is in of itself Harm to a person or group/society etc. mmmmm just some more shallow thoughts to consider for the weekend I will tell yoiu this, I despise having to worry about the fucktard running around out there. I feel NO remorse for what happens to people who intentionally harm others. Then again, I laugh my ass off watching "cops" on tv. Stupid-ass criminals deserve what they get.

insistentone -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:45:31 PM)
The answer is relationship dynamics; we tend to want to be around others who are like us. Those who are to far afield get marginalized and hopefully go away. It is a group decision, one individual at a time, which decides who stays and who goes. The worst of the stupid and the weak must go. We don't trust that how ever. We have ridiculous safety rules and demand that all subscribe to them.

RRafe -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:47:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: insistentone The answer is relationship dynamics; we tend to want to be around others who are like us. Those who are to far afield get marginalized and hopefully go away. It is a group decision, one individual at a time, which decides who stays and who goes. The worst of the stupid and the weak must go. We don't trust that how ever. We have ridiculous safety rules and demand that all subscribe to them. I know that we tend to go overboard in some things. It's an overreaction. Which is why some things should be done in private.

juliaoceania -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 8:58:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists I recall in the Greek times they took new born babies and left them alone to survive the night. Their survival was a demonstration of their strength... a strength that was valued for the society they lived in. Today.. we have capitalizism. The stronger/smarter companies make more money and the weaker ones disappear in the dust. It seems this mindset of Strength in whatever form is wanted and valued within humanity... of course there is efforts to protect the weak but do we want to ? What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result? What are your thougths? Social darwinism and BDSM, interesting.... I think it depends on the person, how well I know them, and the particulars of the situation as to if I feel compelled to help them. Here is the thing, we become a stronger species by caring for each other, valuing each other, and having some altruistic tendencies. I say this in an anthropological sense, part of what makes humans successful is their capacity to care for the community in which they live, and to extend themselves to the "weak" when they have the wherewithall to do so. Seeing it is adaptive for human beings to care for the "weak" generally, I would have to say that the community is made stronger by its willingness to help others find their way, to help them see obstacles they may encounter if those weak individuals ask for help. It makes the community stronger because human beings tend to build community by helping each other.. and no man is an island.

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 9:04:47 PM)
What about our lifestyle. How many times do we have save a person from themselves... should we just let the wolves have them. Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... or are we stronger as result? To the OP..I personally would prefer to teach someone "how to fish"...wouldn't you?......Tempting

insistentone -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 9:15:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Seeing it is adaptive for human beings to care for the "weak" generally, I would have to say that the community is made stronger by its willingness to help others find their way, to help them see obstacles they may encounter if those weak individuals ask for help. It makes the community stronger because human beings tend to build community by helping each other.. and no man is an island. The problem is that we are over run with the stupid and the weak, it is the price we pay for trying to be a popular lifestyle. Time and energy spend trying to protect ourselves and protect them from themselves at some point does noting but weaken the overall BDSM experience.

RRafe -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 9:22:29 PM)
A club I used to attend locally decided that they needed to be more "accepting". And invited the swinger crowd in. Most of these folks just want casual sex-very vanilla sex. But this was the rub-to get into THIER clubs-you have to be a couple. So who shows up? The loser wanna be swinger men-with no dates. Who then insist on spending thier evenings hitting on MY dates. It stopped being fun, and I only attend functions that they don't attend now. Or play at private parties-with friends who ARE into bdsm.

juliaoceania -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 9:32:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: insistentone quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Seeing it is adaptive for human beings to care for the "weak" generally, I would have to say that the community is made stronger by its willingness to help others find their way, to help them see obstacles they may encounter if those weak individuals ask for help. It makes the community stronger because human beings tend to build community by helping each other.. and no man is an island. The problem is that we are over run with the stupid and the weak, it is the price we pay for trying to be a popular lifestyle. Time and energy spend trying to protect ourselves and protect them from themselves at some point does noting but weaken the overall BDSM experience. My problem with this statement is that it assumes that those who engage in this "lifestyle" want to popularize it, as far as I can see this is not true. There is a sense that those who are involved with the lifestyle seek exclusion more than inclusion. There are no more idiots in the lifestyle than exist in the rest of humanity I am sure. There might be more free spirits, more people that are "out there", but I am sure that if you performed IQ tests on these people that for the most part they would test as average with the rest of the vanilla population. I have never been involved with a lifestyle community. I have no judgment about it as a result. For me it is simple, I am a masochist and I am submissive to my man, pretty simple. I do not need a community to guide me or show me the way, although I respect those who do. I do not find it weak to want those things mind you. I suppose that my comments are generalizing too, because subcultures tend to be communities in which certain people try to define who is and who isn't a part of that community. They try exclude some, include others. There is a sense of ownership for those who belong to subcultures, and some resent those whom they see as a threat to their identity within a subculture. There is a desire to create traditions where none may exist within the context of a community mythos. No one can weaken my BDSM experience, no one has any power over me unless I give it to them.

Aswad -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 9:40:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists How many times do we have save a person from themselves... Once. If you want to. quote: should we just let the wolves have them. Yes, please. I'll take two. quote: Are we just enabling these individuals and as such making a weaker community as result... Depends on the mistake in question. Overall, yes, IMO. quote: or are we stronger as result? Some interactions make people stronger. Most don't seem to. quote: What are your thougths? Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll hate you for a lifetime. But you will also have provided food for him for a lifetime. Some burned children are shy of fire. Others just smell ... burnt. Lessons learned by experience are the ones that stick. Few ears are open to advice; people prefer reassurance and confirmation.. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 9:41:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ why do we try to save a person from themselves? Beats me... plenty of people want to save us all from our lifestyles. Each to their own choices, IMO. Health, al-Aswad.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 10:20:57 PM)
Sometimes, people just need a helping hand. I don't mind helping someone once...maybe even twice. But, there comes a point where we simply cannot help them unless they are willing to help themselves. Some people are happy to stay in hell because they know all the street names. Master Fire

dawntreader -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 10:30:48 PM)
i agree with MFM on this one~

KnightofMists -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 11:15:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania My problem with this statement is that it assumes that those who engage in this "lifestyle" want to popularize it, as far as I can see this is not true. ..... In a universal sense... I don't think We (as the whole of the lifestyle) want to popularize it. However, there is significant numbers that do desire to popularize it. Numbers that are more noticeble at community events and such. Most who enjoy and attend these events have this desire to enjoy them without the potential backlash that is possible and does occur... not unlike enjoying the church barbeque. Maybe popularize is the wrong word for some.. maybe it more acceptance and/or tolerance. But in order to gain acceptance and/or tolerance... popularizing is an effect that will occur to obtain acceptance and/or tolerance. Interestly enough... I would suspect many would see this given lifestyle to be a weakness to the fabric of society as a whole. mmmmmmm does this lifestyle make our society stronger..mmmmmmm what is the chance we can get an unbais answer here

insistentone -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 11:27:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists However, there is significant numbers that do desire to popularize it. Numbers that are more noticeable at community events and such. And all of the books, the classes,the public demonstrations. I know, I know, they only want to help others do it right...BS. Here we are, here is what we do, here is how to do it right, everybody do come in if you wish....popularization of the lifestyle as as much or more to do with all of this going on than does a do-gooders desire to "educate" the ignorant. So OK Knight...What has this to do with your OP? Is the lifestyle open door policy to everybody the primary problem? Do we need to get into the moral dilemma of help/not help at all if we can solve the problem with better self selection of who is in the group?

RRafe -> RE: Survival of the Strongest! and the Weak...... (11/2/2007 11:34:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: insistentone quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists However, there is significant numbers that do desire to popularize it. Numbers that are more noticeable at community events and such. And all of the books, the classes,the public demonstrations. I know, I know, they only want to help others do it right...BS. Here we are, here is what we do, here is how to do it right, everybody do come in if you wish....popularization of the lifestyle as as much or more to do with all of this going on than does a do-gooders desire to "educate" the ignorant. So OK Knight...What has this to do with your OP? Is the lifestyle open door policy to everybody the primary problem? Do we need to get into the moral dilemma of help/not help at all if we can solve the problem with better self selection of who is in the group? The old timers tend to just let the public scene do what it wants to-and form thier own circles. The selection process is still going on, the public scene is just used as a pool to draw worthwhile people from. Not much else you can do about it.[&:]

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