Uk Police - cautious?? (Full Version)

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missturbation -> Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 7:42:46 AM)

'With the Metropolitan Police guilty of breaching health and safety laws over the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes, fears have been expressed that the verdict will make officers over-cautious.'
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7074425.stm
 
I would assume most here will be familiar with the story behind this news item. I have always been of the opinion that he shouldn't have run if he was an innocent party and that the officers acted in the best interests of public safety etc. Now though i'm not so sure.
Recently my daughter was hanging around with friends in the centre of our town. There was seven of them, boys, girls all aged 15/16. They were doing usual kid stuff like smoking, climbing on phone boxes, loitering, chatting etc.  
More unusually one of them had brought two bee bee (spelling as it sounds lol) guns with them. For those who don't know what they are, they are pellet guns which can hurt and could cause injury if shot into someones face. They also from a distance look quite real.
Anyway they were messing around with them, shooting at each other and were seen on cctv. This resulted in three police officers turning up, stoping and searching the children and giving them all a warning. 
My daughter came home and gave me her stop and search form and told me what had happened. On reading the form i saw the reason for stop and search was firearms. I was completely amazed that they would send a police presence to a group of kids messing around with toy guns, had they nothing better to do?
For various other reasons i decided to call the local police department and find out exactly what had being going on. On speaking to the inspector there who had viewed the cctv footage as it was happening, i was told that the kids were very lucky they had not had an armed response unit out to them instead of just three unarmed officers!!
He claimed, and i later agreed with him after seeing the footage, that as far as he was concerned they could have been real guns the kids were waving about.  It is actually quite scarey footage. It was only when one of the kids reloaded one of them that he could clearly see, zooming in that they were pellet guns.  
To get to my point though, what if they had sent an armed response unit? What if one of the kids had paniced and instead of getting down on the floor as would have been ordered they ran, or pointed the gun at one of the officers? 
The officers who visited my home with the cctv footage made no bones about the fact that if they had not established the guns were pellet guns and armed response had attended, that a running away kid or gun pointing kid would have been shot!
So i guess in the light of what happened with my own child, thank God it was no more serious than a slap on the wrist. Should the police be more cautious when it comes to these things? Before this event i would have said no, they have to act to the best of their ability, now i'm not so sure.
 



Aneirin -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 8:26:56 AM)

I sympathise with you regarding your children, but we live in an ever increasing scary world. I remember a time as a child/youth I could without any problems walk the street with an air rifle,Never at that time did we think to use the toy/weapon on anyone, nor with knives which we all used to carry, penknives and the like, never was the thought nor the need to brandish as a weapon. The thought was just not there, it was a tool for whittling sticks like kids do all over the world. Lets not get into the catapults and sling shots we all used to have and the yew bows we used to make. I think by having access to such things as a child, a respect was fostered, they were not tantalising curios to cause harm, just simply toys and tools.

Now to the report you mentioned about children with BB guns. I can understand the police response what with children being reported with real firearms and shooting incidences seemingly getting more common.Experience in armed forces enlightened me to how real a water pistol can look. It is a case of the person brandishing what appears to be a firearm, pointing at someone appearing to have a want to cause harm.You as a guard charged with protecting life and property and so live armed, what do you do?Rules of engagement say that is an instance warranting a guard to open fire, but if you are not sure, what do you do, rules say open fire but what if you have opened fire and later find it to be a water pistol, a toy gun or even a BB gun and the now dead person was only playing, think of your personal horror at the situation.

The rules are to treat what appears to be a gun as a gun,whether it be a cap pistol used by children or a firearm, the guard or indeed the police have no way of knowing.I am only thankfull that the police in your instance took the trouble to watch and think, be sure and certain to avoid a potentially horrific situation. But then by doing that, they could be guilty of allowing an instance to happen if it was real guns.

It is too difficult a situation, there is no wrong way and right way, except in my mind ban the possession of anything replica or even looking vaguely like, it is not worth the trouble and the possible consequences.If a total ban existed with severe eduction, then hopefully if the security services respond, they will treat as a fire arm incident and take appropriate action.

Armed forces experience gives one a healthy respect for guns, since leaving, never once have I felt the desire to handle one again, nor anything like. It is no joke, guns exist to kill, there is no glory in killing people.

Hunters for food and game excepted, if you kill it eat it!



EPGAH -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 10:20:25 AM)

Well, until MRI visors become standard issue for police, they have to treat any "gun-shaped object" as if it were a gun! Common sense (an obsolete concept if ever there was one) says "Don't point anything that looks like a weapon at a police". My gun training said, "Don't draw or show your weapon unless you intend to fire it". Taking all those together, shouldn't police act to defend themselves and the unarmed civilians under their care? And yes, there have been robberies with toy guns, and shoe-boxes rigged to LOOK like a bomb. If/when caught, the suspects were charged with ARMED criminal action...The bomb-threats were treated more harshly, given that this IS a post-9/11 world, and playing off obvious fears is NOT appreciated!
Secondarily, though, police have charged a kid who was selling flour AS COCAINE with drug-trafficking, so I guess you have to take the intent for the deed...
Tertiarily, some of the more "modern" guns look like the "space blasters" I used to play with as a kid...except with a REAL MUZZLE instead of a big red light-bulb! So how can police be expected to tell the difference anymore?
Of course, banning realistic gun toys is a solution, but it's too much of an abridgement of "freedoms" for most people...[:(]



kdsub -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 10:46:09 AM)

The problem is this… you can make all the rules of engagement you want…but these are just men and women…with families of there own. They have the same fears as you and even with training they will make mistakes.

Imagine… you see a man with a backpack that you believe could be a bomb that could instantly kill you… you have no time to think…he will not respond to your commands. What would you have done…. Me… I would have done the same as the police officers. I would have had a hard time forgiving myself however.

Same with toy guns I’m afraid and age means little anymore. But I do think good training would work in that particular situation.

As I’m sure you have already done I’d make damn sure my children were not shooting BB guns at each other on public streets.

It is a shame we have to deal with such issues… How many times have you read a story of a 10 year old shooting and killing? Then in another story a 10 year old is shot by police mistaking his toy for a gun.

I think if I lived in a neighborhood with gun violence there would be no way I would allow my kids to play with toy guns…. Then move as soon as possible.

Butch



RCdc -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 11:04:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The problem is this… you can make all the rules of engagement you want…but these are just men and women…with families of there own. They have the same fears as you and even with training they will make mistakes.

Imagine… you see a man with a backpack that you believe could be a bomb that could instantly kill you… you have no time to think…he will not respond to your commands. What would you have done…. Me… I would have done the same as the police officers. I would have had a hard time forgiving myself however.
Butch


Just as an aside.  One the Menezes case, the police officers were informed not to fire until ordered and the mistakes made were by those in the control centre, not the officers themselves.
Also, Menezes was not commanded or approached until he was already allowed to enter the underground, even though the officers stated to the command centre that they could apprehend him without danger before hand.
The police didn;t make the major mistakes, those in control did.  It is when you take the authority away from officers on the scene that the mistakes become reality.
 
the.dark.



missturbation -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 11:29:00 AM)

The police didn;t make the major mistakes, those in control did.  It is when you take the authority away from officers on the scene that the mistakes become reality.
 
In the case of my daughter luckily the inspector in control didn't make a mistake, he recognised it was kids playing with pellet guns. It could have been so different though and my daughter could have been shot by armed response.
Whether it is the police officer or whoever is in controls mistake, should more caution be applied to dealing with these situations ?



missturbation -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 11:30:48 AM)

quote:

As I’m sure you have already done I’d make damn sure my children were not shooting BB guns at each other on public streets.


Oh yes, she won't make that mistake again. However it could all have ended so differently.



Politesub53 -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 11:58:50 AM)

If you take the number of mistakes, and set them against the number of incidents when firearms officers are called out, then i feel they do a good job ob the whole.



missturbation -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 1:26:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If you take the number of mistakes, and set them against the number of incidents when firearms officers are called out, then i feel they do a good job ob the whole.


I have to wonder if you would feel the same should one of your family or friends be one of those shot and killed by mistake. Just curious.



Politesub53 -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 3:26:54 PM)

Wow what a question !!...... Like most people i would be horrified if that happened to someone i knew, yet i have to be realistic. There are very few fatal police shootings in the UK of any kind, and even fewer to innocent people like poor Mr Menendez. When deciding if the police should be more cautious we have to take into account the circumstances. The previous day there had been failed attempt to murder God knows how many innocent peole on Londons Underground. So in those circumstance, however much what happened deplores us, its at least understandable. The officers involved in the actual shooting acted with good faith, but operationally the whole thing was a disaster.

i was born and raised in that part of London, as were all my family going back generations. I went to school less than half a mile from where Mr Menedez was staying, and for five years i travelled between Upper Tulse Hill and Clapham, catching the same bus route he took and changing at Stockwell or Brixton for another bus. The walk from his flat to the bus stop is in an area with enough open spaces for the police two have arrested him easier. The bus stop itself is on a wide-ish road which although busy, isnt as busy as at Stockwell. Once at Stockwell it would have made more snese to try and stop him getting onto the tube before he even got into the station. If he had been approached there, he may not have had time to run, and in anycase there was less chance of bystanders getting hurt than down in the underground. It makes no sense as to why they didnt act faster, and the only reason i think they didnt was indecision up the chain of command. This alone indicates that police were reluctant to just start shooting randomly, at least in my view.

So to recap my answer to you, yes i would be angry if it happened to someone i knew, yet i still want the police to be able to act as they need to defending the public. If anything Ian Blair should be sacked for trying to stop there being a much needed independent inquiry.
Sorry for the long winded reply but i had a lot to say. [8|]



Rule -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 5:26:16 PM)

The solution is simple: demolish all cctv camera's and your children will not be shot by the police.



missturbation -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 5:30:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The solution is simple: demolish all cctv camera's and your children will not be shot by the police.


Excellent suggestion lol.
I'm not defending my daughter for her actions ya know, she shouldnt have been playing with any kind of gun in the centre of town. [:D]



Politesub53 -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 5:31:40 PM)

Missturbation..... Do you think anyone should resign over this ?



philosophy -> RE: Uk Police - cautious?? (11/2/2007 5:43:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The solution is simple: demolish all cctv camera's and your children will not be shot by the police.


..or at least there'll be no evidence of any unauthorised police shootings........



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