RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (Full Version)

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ownedgirlie -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/26/2007 5:42:56 PM)

I don't think SSC or RACK has ever come up in a conversation between my Master and I.  He considers what he wants of me before doing it.  He weighs risk versus desire.  He considers my well being.  Some things are higher risk than others.  Some things are sane to us for reasons known only to us; some things are not.  We engage in expressions of his dominance and my submission in ways that others might abhor.  We do not engage in other forms of expression in ways that are common to others.  Since I consent to all he wants of me, I don't usually consider safe, sane or otherwise beyond that.



HollyBlue -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/26/2007 5:54:03 PM)

Ever since I first read about SSC (in a novel, of all places), it confused me. Consensual, I understand. Safe, as previous posters have said, is subjective, and two people may consent to engage in a behaviour that some would consider mildly to extremely unsafe, depending on perspectives.

The part that really blew my mind was the inclusion of the word "sane." WTF does that mean? I'm not even sure there's a definition of "sane" in the DSMIV (book that Psychiatrists and Psychologists use to diagnose mental conditions). The dictionary defines it in basically a circular way...saying it means a person is mentally healthy...but I'm sure many in the general populace would consider the majority of BDSM activities to be mentally unhealthy.

Anyway, my Master and I definitely think about safety the most, then consent (I've given basically blanket consent with the understanding that I'm to use a safe word if he's about to do something that will do lasting physical, mental or emotional damage, otherwise there is no safe...no refusal just because I don't "want" to do something...but that's our agreement, and I know it's not for everyone.)

So, I'd definitely say RACK is a better acronym, and I, for one, would not be at all sorry to see SSC fade from the BDSM vernacular and be replaced by something more meaningful and objective.



SteelofUtah -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/26/2007 8:57:02 PM)

Okay I just want to make a point about the SSC RACK Versus, Vetoes, Trumps, War, Compolation, T-Shirt and whatnot.

I remember the first time I used a Loopy Johnny. Nasty lil toy. Three loops each one a Half Inch Longer then the last and when it makes contact it can cause sub-dermal laserations. I found out from a doctor that that means it can CUT UNDER the skin and lean the Surface with nothing more than a nasty blue mark.

Now, a friend and fellow Dom in the community said to me, "Eh, what's that feel like, does it hurt?" I said "Yup! wanna feel?" and he said "Sure, can't be that bad." so I laid one across his lower thigh just below his buttox and he screamed. Two days later the welt raised and started to look a lot like a really big scar so we went to the doctor which is where I learned the phrase Sub-Dermal Laseration. They had to cut him open to sew him up. The whole scar is an inch long but he'll have it for the rest of his life.

So. For review. What did Steel learn?

One that his first time using a loopy johnny on someone other than himself was also the LAST time he used a Loopy Johnny on someone other than himself.

That just because it has been done before safe, sane and consentually does not mean that something cannot go wrong.

That just because you hit yourself with it and YOU know how it feels does that mean the gage of your swing is identical to another target.

AND sometimes being Stupid is just STUPID and someone can get hurt.

RACK or SSC no matter what you choose STUPID is STUPID.

As Always

Steel

***The story told is completely true and happened in the first year of my endeavors into BDSM and in the last 10 years I have never forgot how something that seemed fine and never hurt me required a hospital visit for another. So Today I say FUCK all the Slogans and just remember that it is okay to HURT your partner it is not okay to HARM them so for god sakes try not to ever have to say the following phrase***

"Gee, that was stupid."



FullfigRIMaam -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/26/2007 10:36:12 PM)

I think that if you and your partner(s) are relatively sane, than consensual overrules safe/sane motto, but if you're nuts, than go with safe/sane/legal in my opinion.   M



sadomasokisti -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/28/2007 1:22:57 AM)

I totally agree with Steel here.

In my view RACK does not add anything to SSC.  It's like the difference between "I know what I'm doing" and "I REALLY KNOW WHAT I'M DOING".

Both RACK and SSC are subjective and no matter which one you use, you can do stupid things, which for a lot of the time is the most fun thing to do.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/28/2007 1:39:36 AM)

I see that both parties are consensual in the OP but it’s a question of defining safe & sane.  Sometimes that can also be solved if both parties think it is safe and sane.  Otherwise you may find that RACK fits your philosophy better than SSC. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RACK - Risk-Aware Consensual Kink Risk-Accepted Consensual Kink acknowledges that there is risk involved whether it is mild bondage or extreme edgeplay.  It is nonjudgmental and addresses that any activity between fully-informed consenting adults is acceptable.  Prometheus Contributing Editor Gary Switch is credited the origin of the phrase.

Excepts from Wikipedia: RACK was coined in reaction to dissatisfaction within the BDSM community regarding the internal and external political issues surrounding the SSC ethos.  Gary Switch in an essay that has circulated among USENET lists, first proposed the term over the mailing list out of a desire to form a more accurate portrayal of the type of play that many engage in.  RACK focuses primarily upon awareness and informed consent, rather than accepted safe practices.  A RACK person would analyze the risk, and decide for themselves whether they would accept that risk.



eyesopened -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/28/2007 5:12:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Okay I just want to make a point about the SSC RACK Versus, Vetoes, Trumps, War, Compolation, T-Shirt and whatnot.

I remember the first time I used a Loopy Johnny. Nasty lil toy. Three loops each one a Half Inch Longer then the last and when it makes contact it can cause sub-dermal laserations. I found out from a doctor that that means it can CUT UNDER the skin and lean the Surface with nothing more than a nasty blue mark.

Now, a friend and fellow Dom in the community said to me, "Eh, what's that feel like, does it hurt?" I said "Yup! wanna feel?" and he said "Sure, can't be that bad." so I laid one across his lower thigh just below his buttox and he screamed. Two days later the welt raised and started to look a lot like a really big scar so we went to the doctor which is where I learned the phrase Sub-Dermal Laseration. They had to cut him open to sew him up. The whole scar is an inch long but he'll have it for the rest of his life.

So. For review. What did Steel learn?

One that his first time using a loopy johnny on someone other than himself was also the LAST time he used a Loopy Johnny on someone other than himself.

That just because it has been done before safe, sane and consentually does not mean that something cannot go wrong.

That just because you hit yourself with it and YOU know how it feels does that mean the gage of your swing is identical to another target.

AND sometimes being Stupid is just STUPID and someone can get hurt.

RACK or SSC no matter what you choose STUPID is STUPID.

As Always

Steel

***The story told is completely true and happened in the first year of my endeavors into BDSM and in the last 10 years I have never forgot how something that seemed fine and never hurt me required a hospital visit for another. So Today I say FUCK all the Slogans and just remember that it is okay to HURT your partner it is not okay to HARM them so for god sakes try not to ever have to say the following phrase***

"Gee, that was stupid."


A dear friend of mine has a simple rule in life, including BDSM.  "don't be stupid, don't be an asshole"
You just can't fix stupid.



Rover -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/28/2007 6:34:47 AM)

quote:


Both RACK and SSC are subjective and no matter which one you use, you can do stupid things, which for a lot of the time is the most fun thing to do.


First of all, I'm not picking on this sentence or its author (it IS fun to push the envelope).  Just using it as a jump off to sharing a few thoughts.
 
Of course RACK and SSC are subjective.  Assuming that the issue of consent is the same under both and setting aside sane for the moment, "safety" is largely (though not completely) relative (subjective) to the individual.  To begin, "safety" is not a guarantor that nothing will go wrong, it's relative to the amount of risk each individual is willing to accept (ie: subjective).  It's also dependant upon the state of mind for each participant that day, their physical and psychological state, any prior life experiences that may or may not have left "land mines" that could be triggered, the amount of training they've had to be able to conduct that activity in relative safety, their skill at applying that training correctly, their experience level to consistently apply that training, their ability to adapt to any number of potential hazards during the scene when things don't go just right.... I could go on and on.
 
Don't denigrate the fact that RACK and SSC are subjective, flexible and adaptable to each of us as individuals.  Celebrate that fact in that it yields a result that is personalized to each of us.  If RACK and SSC did not yield individualized results, it would produce a list of "safe" and "unsafe" activities for everyone (ie: it would produce the same results for us all), which is precisely what they intended not to do. 
 
Getting back to "sane" for a moment... there are some things that may be great fantasies, but that make for really crappy realities.  To use an extreme example, how about the guy in Germany a few years ago who consented to participating in his own cannibalism.  Using RACK, both participants could have been aware of the risks involved (obviously they knew that the result would be his death), and they both consented to participating in that kink, knowing the risk.  In other words, cannibalism resulting in the death of one of the participants could be acceptible under RACK, whereas that often forgotten and ignored "sane" in SSC would not.
 
Admittedly, it's an extreme example (though it did happen) and you need a bit of common sense to engage in any risky activity (BDSM or not).  But it does display (vividly) what I consider to be the major failing inherent to RACK.
 
Finally, both RACK and SSC are decision making processes.  They're not decision making generators (ie: they do not provide you the answers, they provide you a framework in which you can develop your own answers).  Use whatever you like, call it whatever you like, but it's a good idea (yeah, my opinion) to use something and pray that you have some common sense to go along with it.
 
John
 



slavegirljoy -> RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? (10/28/2007 8:16:09 AM)

To me, "Safe, Sane and Consensual", "Risk Aware Consensual Kink" and, "limits" are all nice sounding catchphrases that can help some people feel more comfortable about what they are doing and, they also come in handy when telling others about 'what it is that we do' and how we are able to do some of the things that we do, which, to many people, sound totally insane and risky and unsafe.  But, in my opinion, discussion of SSC, RACK and, even limits are irrelevant and can give someone a false sense of security, because they all are dependent on the other person(s) involved actually complying with them and following-through on what they say they will and will not do.  And, there's no guarantee of that happening, even if you get it in writing and they sign their name to it in their own blood. It is all well and good to talk about SSC, RACK and limits and to say what is and isn't the right thing to do, when all is calm, and, it's another thing all together to actually do the right thing, in the heat of the moment.  What it boils down to, as far as i'm concerned, is needing to know the character of the person(s) involved.  Either the person(s) you choose to get involved with have a functioning moral compass, with integrity, responsibility, honesty and, compassion, who will not wish to cause you harm or, they don't.  If they do, they are going to do the right thing, without needing to have it discussed and spelled-out for them, in the first place.  If they don't, then no amount of talking about it is going to stop them from doing whatever they feel like doing, regardless of what they said they would and wouldn't do.   People can and do say anything that they think the other person wants to hear so that they can get what they want and, then they can turn right around and do the exact opposite.  This is one reason why i have never had any interest in doing 'scenes' or having any involvement in BDSM activities with anyone outside of a committed, long-term relationship, except when my Master decides that i will be used by another and that's because i trust my Master to make a sound and reasonable decision about who can use me and what they can do with me and, He is always present when anyone else is involved. When i agreed to become my Master's property, i knew that He was a Man with high standards, both of the people He gets involved with and of Himself.  i knew that He was a Man of integrity and honesty and that i could trust Him, otherwise i never would have had anything to do with Him.  He made me well aware of what He would require of me and what He was interested in doing to me and with me and, when i accepted His collar of Ownership, i put my safety and well-being into His hands, because i trust Him to know the risks involved in what He does to me or has me do.  He's very safety-conscious and He won't let any harm come to me.   i don't use a safeword and never have.  Why?  Because i don't have any desire to have that kind of control over what is being done to me.  IF i did exercise that kind of control over what is being done to me, it would take away from the feeling of maximum vulnerability and powerlessness that i want to feel.  Within my intimate relationship, that's the feeling that i live for and, that's what gives me the heightened sexual excitement that i need.  i also have never talked about the risks involved in what my Master does to me, other than, "Can that cut me?", "Yes, it can."  "Oh, okay."  Most of the time, i don't know what my Master is going to do to me or when so, i don't even have the opportunity to talk to Him about the risks beforehand and, i don't really want to.  That would take away from the feeling of vulnerability and powerlessness that i want to have.   It has always been most important to me that i feel very sure that i know the true character of the Man i choose to get involved with.  If i didn't feel that i could trust Him with my life, i wouldn't have anything to do with Him.  If i can trust Him with my life, there is no need for discussing limits and risks, etc.  Some people say that a slave needs to fear her Master.  i don't feel that way.  i don't get involved with people i fear.  Master David does like to scare me but, i am never afraid of Him. i consider my Master to be a 'watchful sadist', who is always fully aware of my reactions to what He is doing, since i can't be fully aware of them myself when He is putting me into that blissful state of 'pleasure-pain' and, i know that He will adjust what He is doing, based on how i am responding, in order to keep me safe and soundly in that state for however long He feels is right.  i believe that He knows best and i rely on that. 

slave joyOwned property of Master David



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