Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 7:03:00 AM

mtl146687

Posts: 22
Joined: 8/24/2007
Status: offline

Hello to Everyone, I was wondering if its consensual for both parties involved does the safe and sane ideals rule out? ex: scat play (dangerous on paper, and probably not a common kink)
cheers

Profile

Post #: 1

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 7:07:54 AM

batshalom

Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline

Two people who want to do and agree to do something, whether safe and sane or not, is still consensual. No one can mandate or outlaw the extent of others' fucktardation.

If you want me to beat you on the head with a mallet, and I agree to do it ... eh! Not safe, not sane, but consensual, probably private, who's to stop it?

Now, if you say "safeword" during my forceful downswing, hopefully you will say it in time for said head malleting to continue being consensual.

You see?

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 2

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 7:10:23 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

It depends on what you're talking about. The law? In some cases, the law doesn't give a fuck whether there was consent; some acts are illegal even if they're consensual. Your own private morality? That's between you and your conscience. Not all people believe that consensual sex is always right (or that non-consensual sex is always wrong).

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 3

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 7:32:17 AM

LATEXBABY64

Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline

The Law is the Law you do the crime you spend the time in jail do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars. But some people think they are above that. Its that anti athuritay complex as cartman would say

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Profile

Post #: 4

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 7:39:51 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

It depends on the people involved. batshalom gave a rather extreme example but it works.

I like to indulge myself in knife play. To those not versed in knife play or leery of it, knifeplay appears to be dangerous and unsafe but, when done properly...just as in a newbie handling an M16 versus a soldier with 1 or 2 or 3 or more years experience...the risks get less and less. Here is where morality and character and some modicum of intelligence do indeed come into play.

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 5

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 8:01:32 AM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

I use rack,not ssc.

"Risk aware consensual kink" covers things a bit more choherently for me. For instance-a slave gets the idea that she wants to suffer some heavy control, and humiliation. Why? It makes her wet-and does pleasant things for her headspace.

So we decide to host a small play party. She's going to be the "table" during it. The guests will know in advance what to expect-no surprises. so anyhow-they show up,.and she is in the front room-in a small cage-with a glass top. I don;t feel like letting her out of it while they are there-so she is wearing a heavy diaper. The guests are allowed to torment her through the bars of the cage-or verbally. They can pinch, fondle tickle slap-whtever takes thier fancy-within reason of doing no damage. The girl knows this-consents. If the guests feel like pulling her feet out through the bars-and tickling them till she wets herself-that's part of what was agreed upon-and it dovetails with her need to feel used and humbled. She knows she might get a rash from being in a wet diaper-so we use skin creme.

Is what we are doing particularly safe or sane? Um, no-not really. Is it fun?

Yup-but we all had agreed in advance-the risks were known-and managed. At the end of it, she gets out of the cage and showers. The guests go home, some with tired arms-others with sore behinds.

It was amusing-we all got what we signed up for-everyone is happy. But would we invite someone that would be offended by this to the party? No way-that would entail an unnaceptable RISK..

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Profile

Post #: 6

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 8:22:39 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

How many kids die playing football? How dangerous is skydiving or hangliding, or for that matter rock climbing? They all involve genuine risk that is greatly minimized.

The OP mentioned scat, the reality is while there are risks involved, if the partners are otherwise fluid bonded the risk orally isn't that great as it is a similar system evolved to deal with those germs although rubbing it into open wounds is a recipe for serious trouble.

(in reply to RRafe)

Profile

Post #: 7

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 8:29:18 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mtl146687

Hello to Everyone, I was wondering if its consensual for both parties involved does the safe and sane ideals rule out? ex: scat play (dangerous on paper, and probably not a common kink)
cheers

Problem with these types of statements is that these terms are all subjective and what one person might consider sane and safe is to another insane and dangerous.

We all subject ourselves to risk in life. Most of us accept these risks and try to minimalize the ones we engage in. Unfortunately many of us choose to equate the risks we take as not being “bad” risks and choose to casts other people’s risk that we do not partake in as bad. It is the pack a day smoker telling the person who eats fast food every day for dinner how bad that is for them.

In other words two people doing scat together have agreed in their world that it is sane and safe enough for them that they are willing to take the risk. These same people or one of them may though not do breath play as to them it is too insane and unsafe.

It is subjective based on the people involved and their values and compatibility.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 8

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 8:38:29 AM

MsIncontrol

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline

I tend to prescribe to RACK vs. SSC for private play. I have been admonished for leaving my submissive home alone in bondage. Maybe it isn't safe...the house could burn down, he could fall off the bed, a tornado may appear and he couldn't make it to the basement. Maybe it isn't sane leaving someone in that state alone for an hour, two or longer. BUT knowing our risks and making a consensual decision we are okay with it. He is healthy with no medical problems, we've done it for years and years. I don't leave candles burning and I am sure to check the weather before I leave. The pleasure it gives me to know he is home alone unable to have the freedoms of movement, touch, and escape far outweighs the risk.

_____________________________

Happiness is only real when shared. - Christopher McCandless

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Profile

Post #: 9

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 10:20:28 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Safe is relative. You could get hit by a bus while taking a walk but staying at home with no fresh air or exercise isn't very safe when viewed in terms of your overall health.

We judge safety every day and we do our best to reduce the risks. Saute food instead of deep frying. But if you drink diet iced tea, there's potential risk from the sweeteners. If you drink corn syrup sweetened tea, there's risk of insulin resistance, not to mention tooth decay.

You judge how risky you want to be.

(in reply to MsIncontrol)

Profile

Post #: 10

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 3:05:37 PM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

Word nerd moment:
i myself would not say that consensual vetoes safe and sane, but i would say that it trumps them.

Sorry.

Since consent is more concrete (objective) than safe, and far more so than sane, i give it primacy. i would probably follow RACK if i ever got around to reading up on it

(in reply to Celeste43)

Profile

Post #: 11

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 3:19:38 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Word nerd moment:
i myself would not say that consensual vetoes safe and sane, but i would say that it trumps them.

Sorry.

Since consent is more concrete (objective) than safe, and far more so than sane, i give it primacy. i would probably follow RACK if i ever got around to reading up on it

Swoons at a word nerd. One after my own heart!

(in reply to petdave)

Profile

Post #: 12

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 3:24:15 PM

TotalState

Posts: 278
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline

I agree with toservez here. Couldn't have said it better myself.

As for RACK v.s. SCC (ooo can of worms, I wonder what happens if I take lid off...), I always thought they were essentially the same, depending on interpretation. On one hand, I sometimes think that those who are for RACK are more likely to say "I hope they realize the risk" rather than the typical SSC "that is too risky", but on the other I also think that those who follow RACK are often using it as some sort of carte blanche to do stupidly risky things without researching it.

< Message edited by TotalState -- 10/26/2007 3:25:42 PM >

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to toservez)

Profile

Post #: 13

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 3:32:03 PM

bipolarber

Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline

There used to be a great T-shirt I used to see at events all the time:

"SSC: two out of three ain't bad.... one will do in a pinch."

And that one had better be consentuality, or you are going to be in a heap of trouble at some point!

(in reply to TotalState)

Profile

Post #: 14

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 3:44:55 PM

grlneedstolearn

Posts: 728
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline

Nope, not for me. i still have a safeword in place of which i have not had to use really yet

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 15

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 4:01:05 PM

probablyknowme

Posts: 1875
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline

I have to interject something here in response to your statement about the people who subscribe to RACK rather than SSC. I am a very heavy bottom most of the time, with interests in some very non-sane activities. To some people, the things I do would appear to be neither Safe or Sane. What they don't understand for the most part, is that everything I do, I have done all the research I can do, I am aware of the dangers involved, and have weighed them against the safety precautions that I always have in place. So, to say that "those who follow RACK are often using it as some sort of carte blanche to do stupidly risky things without researching it" is making a blanket assumption that I, as a RACK player, find offensive.

Respectfully,
kat

_____________________________

The human mind is like a TV set. When it goes blank, it's a good idea to turn off the sound.
-Anon.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewcomersOK/

(in reply to TotalState)

Profile

Post #: 16

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 4:15:01 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

In my view the issue is not one of primacy (ie: one superceding the others). It's one of subjectivity vs. objectivity.

Safety and sanity are subjective issues, relative to the individual(s) engaged in the activity and based upon many factors, including their physical and psychological health, training, experience and skill level (ie: proficiency). However, if consent to an activity is subjective, then you're setting yourself up for a serious problem. It had darned well be objectively present, or sooner or later it will bite you squarely in the posterior (and it will not feel good).

Consent is often granted greater import (for good reason) due to the fact that it can be objectively measured, and because the absence of consent is often the basis for many definitions of "abuse". However, it can reasonably be said that engaging in irresponsibly unsafe or insane activities are equally "abusive", no matter how consensual they may be. It's just more difficult to "prove" (ie: they're more subjective).

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 17

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 4:25:59 PM

TotalState

Posts: 278
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: probablyknowme

So, to say that "those who follow RACK are often using it as some sort of carte blanche to do stupidly risky things without researching it" is making a blanket assumption that I, as a RACK player, find offensive.

I thought that my qualifying 'often' was enough to make clear that I didn't think this applied to everyone, or even the majority.

Even so, no offense meant. I do not think that following RACK or SSC matters one bit when it comes to practical matters, only internet rethoric.

My sincere apologies for any confusion!

_____________________________

Spanking with a smile, living with feeling.

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Profile

Post #: 18

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 4:31:28 PM

probablyknowme

Posts: 1875
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline

Thank you for that

kat

_____________________________

The human mind is like a TV set. When it goes blank, it's a good idea to turn off the sound.
-Anon.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewcomersOK/

(in reply to TotalState)

Profile

Post #: 19

RE: Does Consensual Veto Safe and Sane? - 10/26/2007 5:27:47 PM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

Consensuality is requisite for most things. Sanity should normally take precedence, but it's a rather rare for it to be complete.

Is sex without intent to reproduce sane? Probably not, if you ignore the entertainment value. There's risk involved.

Just about anything you do, there's some cost and risk involved. Question is, is it justifiable? If something means enough to you- even if it's practically suicidal, but it means just that much- well, it could be worth it.

Still, one must keep in mind that something, even if worth a lot, that risks life runs the risk of being able to never do anything- it or anything else desirable- ever again. Something that risks life would have to have an extraordinary value to justify such a risk in one that has much time left in life.

People just aren't sane and our values are often, if not pretty much always, contradictory. Trying to make it work out for the best may just be the best we can do.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/26/2007 5:31:21 PM >

(in reply to mtl146687)

Profile

Post #: 20