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Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/23/2007 7:54:16 AM   
Real0ne


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I found it difficult to pick out one little snippet of this rather long read on money.   Perhaps that in itself is why people in America are so clueless on how money works.

But this time, going to the IMF it will be different right?  The IMF will fix it?

While our attentions are kept securely focused on idiot presidents, terror and more alqaeda we are literally being robbed blind.  Ron Paul is one of 3 people in government who seems to understand the negative impact this is having on our country as a result of inflation.

This is a historical account of our money system, how it came into existance, how it is kept in existance and not only the failure of both parties to correct the problem but infact promote the problem to the extent of selling America to the highest bidder yet we are led to believe we are a wealthy country.

It begs the question that if we are so wealthy why then did bush quietly sign treaties to start the infrastructure of the NAU?  We are after all wealthy are we not?

Is anyone up to the challenge of explaining why we need to continue in a monetary system that has historically failed the people time and time again?

This is a rather long but nicely simplified read for those who are not well acquainted with the money system, the history of failures, and why we cannot seem to break away from it:

http://www.safehaven.com/article-8658.htm

Now we want to use that system on the whole world?

I have googed it and cannot find where even Bill cosby admonished and advised the black community to stop using credit and credit cards on a tv interview! Odd that I cannot find it?


95% less buying power than in 1935. Did you ever notice that charts of the economy NEVER show the debt payback costs?  Think maybe there is a reason for that?




In Summary The current Federal Reserve banking system is modeled after the European central banking system Americans revolted against during their War of Independence.


Every dollar created under the present monetary system does not represent a tangible asset. It represents an I.O.U. from the government, and therefore the people, to the central bank. After three failed attempts, central bankers finally gained control the monopoly on the issuance of American money with the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913. There are two unavoidable results of the Federal Reserve System: (1) devaluation of the dollar and (2) accumulation of debt.


Devaluation Since the establishment of the Federal Reserve, the U.S. dollar has lost over 95% of its purchasing power.

Rising prices is not intrinsic to free-market capitalism. It is a monetary phenomenon caused by increasing money supply. Money, like anything else, is subject to the laws of supply and demand. The more abundant the money, the lower its value. If the amount of money were to remain constant relative to population, we would see a general decrease in the prices of goods as technologies and transportation efficiencies improved. This would be a boon to consumers.


Consider the rapid spread of telecommunications and computers, two industries where technological improvements have actually been able to outpace the price escalation caused by the monetary inflation of central banks. Lower prices have led to a surge in consumer usage. People don't hold onto their money in hopes of waiting for a better computer or phone. Quite often they buy a second or third one. The consumer base grows as well because for those who previously could not afford one now can do so.

Despite these blatant observations, conventional economic thought believes that decreasing prices are bad for the economy because it encourages saving. It is widely held that consumer spending, not saving, is what drives the economy. This is a falsehood, perpetrated by those would stand much to gain by further and further indebtedness of the public. Savings leads to capital investment which is the real driver behind capitalism.

Debt Every dollar created is an instrument of debt lent out at interest. The extra money required to pay back the interest can only come from one place, that being the central bank. As such, the central banks must continuously increase the money supply.

Growth of Currency For the 2007 fiscal year ending Sept 30, 2007, the total interest charges to the Total Outstanding Public Debt of the United States was US$430.0 billion making it the forth largest expense after Human and Health Services, Social Security Administration and National Defense.

By means of comparison, for that same 2007 fiscal year, the total revenue collected from individual income taxes was US$1,156.8 billion (see table S-8 Receipts by Source on page 169 of the Budget for the Fiscal Year 2008 here). Thus, the equivalent of a little over 37 cents of every dollar the U.S. government collects under the Sixteenth Amendment goes towards paying the interest on the national public debt. This amount doesn't include any repayment on the principal, nor does it include any State or Local public debt.

Not a bad rate of return for the Federal Reserve which literally creates the money that indebts the nation out of nothing but the want thereof!

How do We Get Out of this Mess? The current monetary system uses questionable practices on both moral and legal grounds. Monetary inflation erodes the wealth of citizens. Fractional reserve banking enable banks to fraudulently lend out more than they have. Debt is incurred every time new money is created. This debt must is inherited by future generations. Below are three measures that would establish an honest monetary system.




So how much robbery is acceptable robbery? 




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/23/2007 8:14:08 AM >


_____________________________

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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/23/2007 8:23:25 AM   
Pernicious


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Is this thread a question or an answer?

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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/23/2007 9:17:36 AM   
SimplyMichael


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As someone who has probably earned their wings here as a left wing commie your grasp of how money works is overly simplistic.

Fractional lending is HOW you create an economy as large as ours and as for our eroded buying power, houses used to be tiny, people had one set of nice clothes, and buying candy was a treat.

You talk of the decreased buying power of the dollar.  Taking that at face value, we have twice as many people working (women) we should only have twice as much stuff as we did at the turn of the century if the value held steady, less if it fell and more if it rose.

Anyone think they have less than people did at the turn of the century?

Wages in real dollars (adjusted for inflation, thus factoring out the "decrease" in buying power) have held not increased since 1968, rose somewhat under Clinton and have fallen under Bush.



Here are some direct criticisms of what you wrote:
quote:

  Despite these blatant observations, conventional economic thought believes that decreasing prices are bad for the economy because it encourages saving. 

 
Cheap Chinese crap sure hasn't helped savings.  It depends on the REASONS for falling prices.  If nobody has money to buy stuff then it is bad, if the prices are falling because production costs are falling that CAN be a good thing except of course for the production workers displaced.
 
quote:

Savings leads to capital investment which is the real driver behind capitalism. Fractional reserve banking enable banks to fraudulently lend out more than they have.

 
Why is it fraud to lend out more than you have?  Fraud is a legal term and as such is open to being defined by us/we/the people.  Savings ALLOWS capital investment but it ISN"T investment in and of itself.
 
To me, what you are struggling with is how to capture the good of the capitalist system but capture that good for all of us not just the few that manipulate the system.
 
Take public bonds verses taxes.  We want a new school, we can tax people to pay for it today or we can sell bonds and let our children(direct beneficiaries) pay for their own school.  Sounds good except that bonds are sold tax free so that the buyers of bonds save huge amounts on taxes AND get paid for doing it.  Makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.
 
Probably why the top 1% of America make twice the entire combined income of the bottom 50% of Americans.

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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/23/2007 4:57:55 PM   
Real0ne


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Here i thought i was a constitutionalist moreover.

So you feel that fractional lending is the "only way" to create an economy as large as ours?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Anyone think they have less than people did at the turn of the century?


I really do not see that as a realistic gauge.  I think th eonly real gauge that makes sense is actual buying power per unit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
You talk of the decreased buying power of the dollar.  Taking that at face value, we have twice as many people working (women) we should only have twice as much stuff as we did at the turn of the century if the value held steady, less if it fell and more if it rose.


Right as buying power decreases more hours and or more workers need to labor for the same goods.   We once had 1 person able to make enough money to support the whole family and now often times 2 people have to work to have the same quality of life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Wages in real dollars (adjusted for inflation, thus factoring out the "decrease" in buying power) have held not increased since 1968, rose somewhat under Clinton and have fallen under Bush.


Thats the problem.  How many people look at their 401k plans?

So you got your 100g in there.  When they inflate the dollar do you get an instant raise in your 401k money?

NO

oh the market will go up and then guess what?

The money that you just made as a result of inflation you will pay taxes on it now to boot!!  Remember you have to make a minimum of I forget 15% to roughly 18% just to break even!

So not only do you pay interest on the budget(deficit) but you pay interest on inflation including additional taxes!!!

Wall street knows when to move money in and out and once its moved they dump in more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Cheap Chinese crap sure hasn't helped savings.  It depends on the REASONS for falling prices.  If nobody has money to buy stuff then it is bad, if the prices are falling because production costs are falling that CAN be a good thing except of course for the production workers displaced.


Well in the FK model you cant have deflation, if you do the whole enonmoy will crash.  Its going to anyway because the value of the dollar can only go to zero then what?  Pretty tough to inflate into negative numbers.

In the FK model you must always keep inflation above equity, hence doing so you waste any production savings we have accomplished over the previous cycle as the money flows in one direction and that is outwards to international bankers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Why is it fraud to lend out more than you have?  Fraud is a legal term and as such is open to being defined by us/we/the people.  Savings ALLOWS capital investment but it ISN"T investment in and of itself.


How can you lend out more than you have?  Can I lend you a car I do not have?  Granted thats radical but how?  The problem is that the money has no intrinsic value beyond the paper it is written on and rather than it being a debt clearer is a debt instrument (iou), and frankly is unconstitutional.

There was a day when you could take all your money and turn it in for a quantified tangible, gold, silver, but now that there is that disconnect you have no idea how much your money is worth.  If you were getting paid in gold you would know because your pocket would be getting lighter every year even tho your wage is getting higher.

Then there is the delaay factor.  Your wages are not adjusted the second they raise inflation.  Its a purely trickle down system.  Who benifits from this delay?  The worker who's wages are adjusted once per year?

They can raise inflation to 7% for 8 out of the 12 months and then drop it back to 3% and when you get your raise what will you get?  3%!!

I think the best approach is to ask you, how do you think fractional banking is not fraud?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Take public bonds verses taxes.  We want a new school, we can tax people to pay for it today or we can sell bonds and let our children(direct beneficiaries) pay for their own school.  Sounds good except that bonds are sold tax free so that the buyers of bonds save huge amounts on taxes AND get paid for doing it.  Makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.


People own property and we can put our property up as collateral to borrow from a comunity who has a surplus in their treasury.

This gov is borrow happy, all the money, that is every dollar is borrowed from the fed res corp and that comes at a price when we can make our own money for free.

The problem is that any time a county gets a surplus they look for places to spend it so they do not have to lower taxes!!!!

The whole system is structured to work against being honest and begs corruption and as such we have what we created.








_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/23/2007 6:45:54 PM   
luckydog1


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Real you are not a Constitutionalist in any sense.  No where in it does it say you are a soverign.  It does say you are a citizen

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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/23/2007 8:13:09 PM   
SimplyMichael


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I am not trying to be hostile and I am at least sympathetic to your "side" of the argument I just don't think you have a firm grasp of how the underpinnings work.  Don't forget, in any system the stupid and ignorant are going to get screwed or at least beat by the smart and the informed.  In my opinion, the trick is to allow the smart and informed to create as much wealth as they can but make it hard to "take" and or make money off of the wealth of others and to tax them at a rate that reflects their greater benefit from soceity.

The public cannot "make money for free" if you peg the money to something tangible.  Take gold, we can only have the amount of money in circulation that we have gold.  That is where fractional lending comes in.

Like most things, fractional lending isn't good or bad it is instead how it is used.  Marginal fractional lending allows the creation of additional "money" but like anything, spread the margin too big and you start to have problems.  However, the system works fairly well.

As for all of this stuff somehow keeping government in check, I don't recall it working in Europe when their were kings and queens busy borrowing gold..

The problem with this country is people are stupid and ignorant.

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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/24/2007 1:46:16 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

Like most things, fractional lending isn't good or bad it is instead how it is used.  Marginal fractional lending allows the creation of additional "money" but like anything, spread the margin too big and you start to have problems.


Sure...insufficient ''coinage'' was definitely a problem for the republic during it's infancy-- But non-repayable debt and bankruptcy are inherent deficiencies contained within a fractional reserve monetary system whose nucleus is interest-laden paper money creation.

quote:

However, the system works fairly well.


The system gives off the illusion that it works well within a constrained period of time.....But in reality it is nothing more than a ticking time bomb. It's the same system that produced the fallacy of the ''roaring twenties''; only to be followed up--shortly thereafter-- by the worst economic depression the modern world has ever known.

The debt-laden fractional reserve system is a pure and simple ponzi scheme. And I defy even the smartest of posters here to give it a shot and prove that its not.






- R


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 10/24/2007 1:50:21 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/24/2007 8:28:41 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Only problem is bankruptcy isn't anything new...it existed before fiat money so again your theory just doesn't even begin to hold water.

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RE: Capitalism or Monopolism? - 10/25/2007 1:26:44 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Only problem is bankruptcy isn't anything new...it existed before fiat money so again your theory just doesn't even begin to hold water.


It looks to me like our wires are crossed here....

You are speaking about bankruptcy in the context of it being the consequence of ongoing human behavior/condition  

I am speaking about bankruptcy in the context of a monetary system that was engineered with a pre-conceived mathematical deficiency that precludes it from ever having a chance at success.    

Two quite different and totally unrelated points
   
For one to understand those pre-conceived deficiencies, and *really* get it -- interest-laden paper money creation, ala our monetary system, is best explained in the form of a very simple mathematical equation.  

An excellent read on the subject is :http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/0912986212   

Please be advised that with exception of mentioning Volker and Greenspan, there is little to none Republican /Democrat demagoguery or rhetorical conditioning.







- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 10/25/2007 1:53:09 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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