Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us

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farglebargle -> Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 7:54:02 AM)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/opinion/14rich2.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

NorthernGent -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 12:54:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/opinion/14rich2.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin 'Can't access it, what's he saying? I presume it's something about the German resistance in Nazi Germany. Well, the Socialists and Communists outnumbered the Nazis: even when they were elected (dubiously). The problem was that the Nazis had support in the right circles: the industrialists, the military and assorted German conservatives/land owners. It's fair to say that the conservatives thought they could control Hitler, but that's why they backed him: in their eyes, Hitler was a better option than a group of Socialists who believed in power to the workers, and they wanted to stop the workers at all costs. Incidentally, I was in Berlin about 3 weeks ago and went to a Museum in the East which charted Soviet-German relations; it was excellent, the propaganda posters have to be seen to believed. I studied Nazi Germany at University, but this museum was an eye-opener. 'Worth a visit if you're ever over that way. The problem in Germany was not Germany per se, it was conservative Germans; they were reared on a diet of racial theories, and prominent conservative German philosophers who genuinely believed in the superiority of the Germanic race. They cynically manipulated some theorists, e.g. Darwin, Neitzsche, but espoused the teachings of others, e.g. Heidegger. These people couldn't stand the US or England because they held both nations responsible for the peddling of commercialism at the expense of high European culture (or classical music, art etc). Their perceived enemy in this racial war was the Slavs, of course, and in order to win this war, Jewish Germans, homosexuals, the mentally ill etc had to be eradicated to prevent the depurification of German blood. All very bizarre, but, believe it or not, the French conservatives held similar ideas on Jewish depurification of French blood; anti-semitism was rife after the French defeat to the Prussians in 1870: they blamed the Jews, too. That's nationalism; when it goes tits up, someone has to pay, and it's going to be the minority.

NorthernGent -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 1:19:04 PM)
To add: You have to understand German conservatism to understand the genocide. In their eyes, they were the master race, the greatest race of people going; they believed they were the saviours of European culture in the face of the commerce-driven English. They produced so many great musicians, artists, philosophers etc in the 19th century; you could view the 19th century as the English century if you looked to commerce, or the German century if you looked to music, art etc. In their eyes, they were untouchable. They lose a war in 1918, and the untouchables need a scapegoat; it can't be the ethnic Germans because everything they know places them on a pedastal, so it has to be the most well-integrated minority with an influence on German society, in order for the scapegoat to be remotely believable in the eyes of the easily persuaded. It follows that they will have to be eradicated to prevent a defeat in the next war.

Termyn8or -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 1:35:21 PM)
NG, it worked for me. The only real German part was about Kolm, who interrogated Hess after WW2. It was done with a chessboard. The whole article is a condemnation of torture commited by the US with a few things thrown in. Try hitting it again. Wasn't bad. It's from the NYT but I don't see how that should affect your ability to get it. If you still can't get it I will email it to you. T

Termyn8or -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 3:10:08 PM)
NG, when I first read your post I knew that you hadn't read the article, which you said of course. You seem to have inadvertently derailed this thread. This because you have tapped me on the shoulder so to speak, in a way that is very rare. The Germans were not the monsters they are purported to have been. They had quite a bit of support among the people, of course there were dissidents, but I am a dissident right here and now. One thing about us dissidents, they do not know who we are until we do something. What people need to realize is that the Nazi party really did bring a better life to the German people. Some of the benfits of Naziism benefit the country of Germny to this day. Volkswagons were the brainchild of Hitler. He and Henry Ford were friends, or at least mutual admirers. They did correspond, and even if Hitler did not desiogn every bolt on a Volkswagon, it was his impetus to get the things rolling. Ford probably gave hime a few pointers. So we come from a time when it took a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a postage stamp to a time where every German could own an automobile. The populace was ecstatic. What's more there is another inconsistency in the mass media's condemnation of Hitler. This is all from their own outlets and is common knowledge, I need no cites or quotes. Here it is. In a country where you needed a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a postage stamp, about fifty or so years in the future we have some people demanding money from Swiss banks because some people had what amounts to offshore accounts. It adds up people, there is no lie possible unless you reject one of those two facts. Some people were doing very well. The rest proved their worth by overcoming these obstacles by not only rebuilding the economy, but by building, maintaining and using a war machine. The rest, which is who we are, know how to solve problems and get things done. And our turn will come. The tide changes slowly, but just try to stop it. We are oppressed, almost everything has been taken away, and the time grows near for the People to speak, loudly. They say that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, but they left out that some of us would be proud to repeat it. Perhaps we do it a bit differently this time around eh ? This is case where high ideals led to lofty ideas. I have more. I like selective breeding and eugenics. Some races do it, and I think most of them are healthy. But our melting pot has what, the third worst infant motality rate in the "civilized" world ? This "civilized" world of ours is going nowhere. Be as well as you can be, in this world. T

NorthernGent -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 3:30:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or What people need to realize is that the Nazi party really did bring a better life to the German people. Some of the benfits of Naziism benefit the country of Germny to this day. Volkswagons were the brainchild of Hitler. He and Henry Ford were friends, or at least mutual admirers. They did correspond, and even if Hitler did not desiogn every bolt on a Volkswagon, it was his impetus to get the things rolling. Ford probably gave hime a few pointers. So we come from a time when it took a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a postage stamp to a time where every German could own an automobile. The populace was ecstatic. What's more there is another inconsistency in the mass media's condemnation of Hitler. This is all from their own outlets and is common knowledge, I need no cites or quotes. Here it is. In a country where you needed a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a postage stamp, about fifty or so years in the future we have some people demanding money from Swiss banks because some people had what amounts to offshore accounts. It adds up people, there is no lie possible unless you reject one of those two facts. Some people were doing very well. The rest proved their worth by overcoming these obstacles by not only rebuilding the economy, but by building, maintaining and using a war machine. T, you know when you've spent a lot of time studying something and you see a post in your field that is completely and utterly inaccurate? say IT.....imagine you see an IT related post and you're sat there thinking...mate, you really couldn't be further from the truth. I've seen your posts on this subject in the past, and I've seen you post something along the lines of "are you ready to face up to yourself, to what you are"......are you? because for someone who values individual liberty, you're a mile off with this crowd, and I could pretty much destroy your notions of the Nazis being good for the German people within a matter of minutes (good for the people in any man's language, by the way).

thornhappy -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 3:49:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or I have more. I like selective breeding and eugenics. Some races do it, and I think most of them are healthy. But our melting pot has what, the third worst infant motality rate in the "civilized" world ? T Maybe it's because we do such a piss poor job on prenatal care in this country. We'd rather pay out hundreds of thousands on a single high-risk birth than have hundreds able to have proper prenatal care. What do you call the people who said they didn't smell the camps that were right outside their towns? Or the ones who turned in their neighbors or family members for a wide variety of sins during the Third Reich? The ones who worked for the Gestapo? The churches that rolled over? (Remember, Pope Pius IX resisted Bismark, urging Catholics to passive resistance, and excommunicating the so-called state priests, who cooperated with Bismark's anti-Catholic rulings. For more details, check out Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews, by James Carroll.) The punitive reparations levied on Germany after WWI may have led to the conditions that gave rise to the Third Reich, but surely the Germans didn't have to take this into another "world war". thornhappy

seeksfemslave -> RE: Frank Rich - The 'Good Germans' Among Us (10/15/2007 3:58:54 PM)
NG's total misunderstanding of what this thread is about is a perfect example of his political outlook. ie his attitude is fixed before he responds lol adding: should have said before he comprehends what is being said.

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