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SugarMyChurro -> Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 12:06:36 AM)

"Defeat The Right In Three Minutes"
http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/6

At bottom, conservatives believe in a social hierarchy of "haves" and "have nots" that I call "corporate feudalism"...

Excerpt from "Right-Wing Ideology in a Nutshell"

  • Cheap-labor conservatives don't like social spending or our "safety net". Why. Because when you're unemployed and desperate, corporations can pay you whatever they feel like – which is inevitably next to nothing. You see, they want you "over a barrel" and in a position to "work cheap or starve".
  • Cheap-labor conservatives don't like the minimum wage, or other improvements in wages and working conditions. Why. These reforms undo all of their efforts to keep you "over a barrel".
  • Cheap-labor conservatives like "free trade", NAFTA, GATT, etc. Why. Because there is a huge supply of desperately poor people in the third world, who are "over a barrel", and will work cheap.
  • Cheap-labor conservatives oppose a woman's right to choose. Why. Unwanted children are an economic burden that put poor women "over a barrel", forcing them to work cheap.
  • Cheap-labor conservatives don't like unions. Why. Because when labor "sticks together", wages go up. That's why workers unionize. Seems workers don't like being "over a barrel".
  • Cheap-labor conservatives constantly bray about "morality", "virtue", "respect for authority", "hard work" and other "values". Why. So they can blame your being "over a barrel" on your own "immorality", lack of "values" and "poor choices".
  • Cheap-labor conservatives encourage racism, misogyny, homophobia and other forms of bigotry. Why? Bigotry among wage earners distracts them, and keeps them from recognizing their common interests as wage earners.

    -----

    "Cheap Labor Conservatives Issues Guide"
    http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/16

    -----

    "The Wrath of the Millionaire Wannabe's"
    http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/47

    -----

    Anyway, that's Joe Lyles website for those that have never seen it. I think it's worth a read - the main bits in particular.





  • Termyn8or -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 1:01:16 AM)

    You should put that in wikipedia under "neo-cons".

    T




    seeksfemslave -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 1:52:26 AM)

    Sugar: I think you are over simplyfying
    adding: I will leave this in but I hadn't read all your post before I wrote it lol

    For instance a conservative may be very hard line on law and order but recognise that if the majority of  people are poor then that does not benefit  society as a whole.
    Thats the theory anyway, I think almost anybody, be they conservative or liberal, when running a business will want to drive down labour costs. When all do it  nobody gains in the long term.

    Just being nosey; I would be interested to know where your profile pic. was taken. The background looks a bit Asian to me lol




    NeedToUseYou -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 4:02:56 AM)

    What a load of crap.








    pahunkboy -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 4:20:20 AM)

    i agree w some of it- the general tone of it.

    toward the end might have been inaccurrate.  the question is  can we find solutions before net nuetrality is gone. we lost that fight- and MANY people wanted it!
    expect the net to get as commercial and as mundane as cable has gotten.  i can get along with conservatives which are actually differnt then neocons.




    popeye1250 -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 12:38:39 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

    Sugar: I think you are over simplyfying
    adding: I will leave this in but I hadn't read all your post before I wrote it lol

    For instance a conservative may be very hard line on law and order but recognise that if the majority of  people are poor then that does not benefit  society as a whole.
    Thats the theory anyway, I think almost anybody, be they conservative or liberal, when running a business will want to drive down labour costs. When all do it  nobody gains in the long term.

    Just being nosey; I would be interested to know where your profile pic. was taken. The background looks a bit Asian to me lol


    Seeks, very good point.
    I don't think it benefits anyone to have everyone poor.
    Also at that point it doesn't benefit anyone to see corporations remain in business anymore.
    There are a bunch of businesses I'd like to see go bankrupt.
    As I have no "interests" in them I wouldn't care less.
    We need to terminate almost all of these one-way "trade deals."
    This is what happens when big business makes our laws instead of The People.
    This stuff needs to end.




    SugarMyChurro -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 5:30:47 PM)

    Well, let's distinguish between "traditional" conservatives and what I will call "scorched earth" conservatives.
    -----
    A scorched earth policy is a military tactic which involves destroying anything that might be useful to the enemy while advancing through or withdrawing from an area. - Wiki
    -----
    Traditional conservatives don't necessarily fit into the "cheap labor conservative" mold, but some always did. Of the more benign type of conservative, I believe that there was a group of conservatives that believed that sustainable prosperity was based on creating an economic water that potentially could lift all boats. With that group, good economic policy was forward looking and there was concern both for what was good for today and what might be good for tomorrow. Of the meaner faction that better fits the "cheap labor" mold - well, that faction has actually become the modern Republican party. Some people sneeringly call them "Neo-cons" but I don't think that covers the whole story with this current bunch. When traditional conservatives got older, the party was overtaken by "scorched earth" conservatives that no longer maintain the same values as their forebears.

    Scorched earth conservatives tear down everything for a short-term profit margin. They enter into companies as CEOs and proceed to do anything they can to boost the current stock price in order to realize payment via stock options. Once the "pump and dump" scheme is in effect they buy low, sell high, and then float away on a golden parachute severance package. This is what they do and I have seen it dozens of times over the last 20 years. There is no thought for tomorrow nor is there any sense of trying to lift all boats. They got theirs and fuck everyone else.

    Politically it works in almost the exact same way. Bush is a good example. This guy, with no actual serious business acumen, gets pushed into the presidency. He's not there to figure shit out or make good decisions, he's there to scorch the earth. He's there to create a war and try to secure Iraq's oil. Even if he fails in the latter mission - always a gamble - he can't fail in the first goal, not after 9/11. What it means is that he and his buddies are making money hand over fist looting the American taxpayer and shovelling money offshore. He and his corporate cronies and fellow war profiteers will soon float away on their golden parachutes as perceived dignitaries on the international political scene.

    I am not saying that there are no traditional values conservatives. But they don't control their party and when push comes to shove they'd rather side with the party such as it is than vote another way. So even while they themselves are not scorched earth conservatives, on a day to day basis it makes no real difference because that's the kind of conservatives they are currently voting into office.

    And I am not sure how far back in time you'd have to go to find a proper traditional values conservative. Pretty far, I should think. If anyone tries to offer up Reagan or Nixon, I'll just laugh - those guys were all about getting theirs and fucking everyone else in the process. The Clintons, the famous democratic centrists, were more in the mold of scorched earth conservatives than liberal democrats.

    There's a lot of people in DC sucking that corporate cock and scorching the earth in their wake. It's bad all around, but particular offensive in the Republican party.




    MzMia -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/14/2007 5:35:46 PM)

    [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

    By the time the majority wakes up, it is going to be too late.




    SugarMyChurro -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 3:02:25 AM)

    Hell, I think it's too late now - the only solution is for the pendulum to swing the other way.

    Of course, we have dittohead, millionaire wannabes on this very board that will think this is all hogwash.




    OrionTheWolf -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 7:37:37 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

    "Defeat The Right In Three Minutes"
    http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/6

    At bottom, conservatives believe in a social hierarchy of "haves" and "have nots" that I call "corporate feudalism"...

    Excerpt from "Right-Wing Ideology in a Nutshell"
  • Cheap-labor conservatives don't like social spending or our "safety net". Why. Because when you're unemployed and desperate, corporations can pay you whatever they feel like – which is inevitably next to nothing. You see, they want you "over a barrel" and in a position to "work cheap or starve".


  • Not republican, used to be, but I am a conservative and a Business Consultant, so let me take a crack at this.

    The moral in a company that believed the above would be horrible. Any good businessman that relies on labor will know that the best area to get productivity is moral. Moral must be balanced with the cost, because in the end, you have to stay competitive.

    quote:


  • Cheap-labor conservatives don't like the minimum wage, or other improvements in wages and working conditions. Why. These reforms undo all of their efforts to keep you "over a barrel".


  • It is not so much the minimum wage, but the effects the minimum wage has on labor contracts. Labor unions can be good or bad. They should push for the best benefits and wages for their members, as well as set a high standard of excellence those members should follow. It is that last part where I have a problem. When I was 18, I loaded trucks for AAFES, which is union run. I joined the union, paid my dues and worked. I wanted to move ahead so I worked my ass off. The other guys were irritated because my productivity ratings were "too high" in their opinion. I was told that if I kept working like that, they would expect everyone to work like that. I was pretty stunned.

    Many labor contracts with unions are based upon minimum wage, so if the government ups the minimum wage, it suddenly gives alot of workers a raise that may not have earned it through merit. So that $20 an hour worker, is now making $22.00, and their productivity rate is likely still running about 75% (based off of manufacturing averages).

    So things have to be balanced. Personally I believe that those labor contracts should not be based upon min wage, but the union lobbyist and union negotiators like it because it has political influence.

    quote:


  • Cheap-labor conservatives like "free trade", NAFTA, GATT, etc. Why. Because there is a huge supply of desperately poor people in the third world, who are "over a barrel", and will work cheap.


  • You are mixing the words "Cheap-labor conservatives" together and it creates a misnomer. Big Corporation like cheap labor no matter where they get it, because they have no single investment in a single nation. US based companies will use the lowest labor they can get, but if they are an old time conservative, they also realize that someone has to make the money to buy the goods, pay taxes, save money (which is then used by that institution to invest), and basically keep the economy good. Most conservatives I speak with are do not like those free trade agreements. Also, wasn't NAFTA and a few others sponsored and pushed by some Dems as well?

    quote:


  • Cheap-labor conservatives oppose a woman's right to choose. Why. Unwanted children are an economic burden that put poor women "over a barrel", forcing them to work cheap.


  • This is a huge leap, and seems nothing more than slandering/pandering based upon emotions. Parenthood should be planned as much as possible, and that is a completely separate issue.

    quote:


  • Cheap-labor conservatives don't like unions. Why. Because when labor "sticks together", wages go up. That's why workers unionize. Seems workers don't like being "over a barrel".


  • Most unions also push for mediocrity, much of the time. See above about the min wage. There have been many companies in the past, that have paid well and given good benefits, without a Union being involved. I truly believe Unions need to be reformed, or something put in it's place. Look at the Teacher's union as a good example. Also, shouldn't it be a workers choice to be in a Union or not? If so, then why do unions put pressure on workers to be a part of the Union, or they have to pay an "opt out" fee to not be in it?

    quote:


  • Cheap-labor conservatives constantly bray about "morality", "virtue", "respect for authority", "hard work" and other "values". Why. So they can blame your being "over a barrel" on your own "immorality", lack of "values" and "poor choices".


  • How it goes is: Virtues are the base, and they create a person's Morality. A person's Morality creates their ethics. A person's ethic's assist in the creation of a code for them to live by. Everyone has morals, well almost everyone, there are those that are true sociopaths that do not feel guilt or love. To respect someone in authority is not a good thing? I believe it is most of the time. If not, try not showing respect to a judge the next time you are in their country, I mean courtroom. There has to be a hierarchy of authority, along with that comes responsibility and each level also needs accountability.

    Hard word is not a good thing? I believe most people that work hard, so get ahead. There are exceptions but we are not talking mathematics here, where a straight formula always has the same conclusion. You have to factor in human behavior. You will have bad bosses, and bad employees, each of them will have a story similar to a good boss, or good employee that is speaking of an unfair situation.

    My last Big Corp job, I spent 10 months as a front line help desk person, and then jumped three positions beyond to become a Senior Level Technical Adviser. I am not an exception, and I have seen people do it in the past. The unfortunate part is Big Corps create a box that everyone must fit in, which is called PPG's (policies, procedures and guidelines). These create uniformity so that a measure can be applied to positions and a value assigned. Sometimes those that think outside the box, may be seen the same as those that misbehave outside the box, and they are all lumped into the same category. This has taught many workers to "just do their job" and don't attract attention.

    quote:


  • Cheap-labor conservatives encourage racism, misogyny, homophobia and other forms of bigotry. Why? Bigotry among wage earners distracts them, and keeps them from recognizing their common interests as wage earners.


  • I have seen some of these things in small, medium, and large businesses. I have seen these things in volunteer organizations. I have seen these things on the streets. My powers of telepathy never worked so I could tell what the intent of those people were.

    In general, the wording in these statements, and that web site is just a push for the Dems. Using the word conservative, repeatedly, along with warnings of dire consequences, is a marketing and psychological ploy. Both parties do it, I have seen similar articles about the Dems from some Republican sites. We have to reject these types of ploys, they are just a cover for something alot worse, and that is THE BUSINESS AS USUAL POLITICS THAT BOTH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ENGAGE IN.


    Orion




    MzMia -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 3:30:14 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

    Hell, I think it's too late now - the only solution is for the pendulum to swing the other way.

    Of course, we have dittohead, millionaire wannabes on this very board that will think this is all hogwash.


    Well thanks for putting it OUT here, people can read it and make up their own minds.
    ::smiles::
    Leaves here singing "Where have all the flowers gone?"




    SugarMyChurro -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 4:41:24 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
    Also, wasn't NAFTA and a few others sponsored and pushed by some Dems as well?


    Post #: 7, A.k.A. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1347158
    I said: "The Clintons, the famous democratic centrists, were more in the mold of scorched earth conservatives than liberal democrats."

    You can well imagine that I hardly want another Clinton in office. I am very tired of these politicians with their red kneecaps, so busy in the service of the U.S. corporate plutocracy.




    OrionTheWolf -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 9:47:35 PM)

    This is something we can completely agree on. My Senators and Congressman are probably sick of hearing me. The newspaper locally has printed three of my comments so far. I am tempted to find a moderate progressive and do a real political watchdog site, but first I would need to figuire out how to create 36 hour days.

    One of the books I recommend to all of myc clients to read, is the  One Minute Manager http://www.amazon.com/Minute-Manager-Ph-D-Kenneth-Blanchard/dp/0425098478 . This book helps balance the needs of the employee with the needs of the company. If the scales tip too mch in one direction or the other, they both suffer in the end.

    Orion


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
    Also, wasn't NAFTA and a few others sponsored and pushed by some Dems as well?


    Post #: 7, A.k.A. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1347158
    I said: "The Clintons, the famous democratic centrists, were more in the mold of scorched earth conservatives than liberal democrats."

    You can well imagine that I hardly want another Clinton in office. I am very tired of these politicians with their red kneecaps, so busy in the service of the U.S. corporate plutocracy.




    MzMia -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 10:16:04 PM)

    Great post Orion, but then the corporations would have to CARE about their workers.
    There lies the problem, most do not.
    Back to the originial post.




    subfever -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 10:20:34 PM)

    quote:

    We have to reject these types of ploys, they are just a cover for something alot worse, and that is THE BUSINESS AS USUAL POLITICS THAT BOTH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ENGAGE IN.


    While I do agree with some of the content in the OP, the above quote accurately describes my overall sentiment.




    UtopianRanger -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 10:54:38 PM)


    quote:


    While I do agree with some of the content in the OP, the above quote accurately describes my overall sentiment.


    Heh.... I live amongst a nest of Republicans--here in rural Oregon-- and have been of a Goldwater / Buchanan fiscal conservative mindset my entire life....yet only on collarme have I read from those who support the phony free market and these subversive one way trade deals.





    - R











    meatcleaver -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/15/2007 11:45:40 PM)

    Much as ones instincts are to pull up the drawbridge and look after oneself, experience shows that this is a way for a country/culture to lose steam, become fat, decadent and complacent and become poor. If one doesn't like the way the world is going now, one has to have the dynamism to produce a better way of living and earning, not give up because no other country is going to give up, particularly India and China.




    UtopianRanger -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/16/2007 3:04:51 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

    Much as ones instincts are to pull up the drawbridge and look after oneself, experience shows that this is a way for a country/culture to lose steam, become fat, decadent and complacent and become poor. If one doesn't like the way the world is going now, one has to have the dynamism to produce a better way of living and earning, not give up because no other country is going to give up, particularly India and China.



    Meat....

    We've argued this a few times back - You know its futile to argue on the side of economic-globalization with a bonafide nationalist.[;)]

    You've been pretty onry these last few threads, arguing with the good ole USA.....Maybe we need to call Lil' Caitlyn to bring you back in line?









    - R




    SugarMyChurro -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/16/2007 6:46:10 PM)

    Just as a follow-up to previous comments:

    -----

    Hillary Only Top-Tier Dem To Receive Wal-Mart Money
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/16/hillary-only-toptier-dem_n_68712.html

    "Clinton does have long political ties to the retail giant. She served on Wal-Mart's board from 1986 to 1992, and was close with the company's founding family, the Waltons."

    -----

    Hillary Clinton = corporate lackey.




    pahunkboy -> RE: Cheap Labor Conservatives (10/20/2007 5:29:22 AM)

    the IRS says taxes are down by 2%. so- that lines up with the numerous people I know that are outsourced. So if individuals are no longer paying full taxes, who will?

    i am going to down price all of my bills and exclaim my check is outsourced.




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