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constitution idol - 10/13/2007 4:07:09 PM   
philosophy


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........why is the US constitution such an important thing for US people? Why are the framers held in such high regard?
Isn't it posible that the world they were writing about has ceased to exist and that, perhaps, each generation must fundamentally rewrite such a thing as a constitution in order to meet the unique challenges that they face?

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 4:21:00 PM   
farglebargle


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Supposedly, those needs are to be served by the 9th and 10th Amendments. They did pretty good, until the Fucking Hamiltonians screwed everything up. The fucker should have been gunned down 18 years earlier.



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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 4:35:05 PM   
luckydog1


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What parts of it do you want to eliminate or replace?  Individual rights?  Civil rights?  Balance of power among the branches?  It is set up to be amended (and has been many times) or completely rewritten (if most people want to).

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 4:39:06 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

........why is the US constitution such an important thing for US people? Why are the framers held in such high regard?
Isn't it posible that the world they were writing about has ceased to exist and that, perhaps, each generation must fundamentally rewrite such a thing as a constitution in order to meet the unique challenges that they face?




you know phil, i agree with you in many ways....i have often thought if they, the founding fathers, could have seen what the future held, they would have, well, maybe pulled a jim jones, who knows.

but i have no clue how to rewrite it to take guns from the bad guys and let the good guys keep them, how to protect some folks rights and not others.....so i guess were stuck with it cause its the best we  have..........

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 4:47:40 PM   
philosophy


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...seems to me that when i see people here discuss constitutional issues the arguments tend to hinge on the precise wording of the constitution. Now i have no desire to disparage the constitution as an achievement utterly appropriate in its time, but things change faster than written words do, especially when those words have the force of law. What possible system can be devised that is as fast on its feet as events?

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 6:12:37 PM   
kdsub


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As Luckydog as stated what would you like to change?….That document is timeless in its intent and directives. Now if we could only get our politicians to follow it.
Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/13/2007 6:13:13 PM >

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 8:51:17 PM   
Owner59


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 Great question,Philosophy


I believe the constitution "is" our country.

Every country has people,places and things, in it.Some are more blessed than others.

But what makes us different and better,and sets us apart,is the US Constitution,IMO.

The framers made what`s sometimes called ,"a living document".Meaning that it was made to change and adjust,as needed through time.That`s why there are mechanisms to amend it,so it doesn`t become stagnant or out dated.

I beleive that`s why it, and the US has lasted over 200 years.
The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.


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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 8:56:15 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...seems to me that when i see people here discuss constitutional issues the arguments tend to hinge on the precise wording of the constitution. Now i have no desire to disparage the constitution as an achievement utterly appropriate in its time, but things change faster than written words do, especially when those words have the force of law. What possible system can be devised that is as fast on its feet as events?


Well actually caselaw interpreting the consititution and applying it to current times is what controls.  However, the constitution covers the basic, fundamental american beliefs in general.
l

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 8:58:18 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Great question,Philosophy


I believe the constitution "is" our country.

Every country has people,places and things, in it.Some are more blessed than others.

But what makes us different and better,and sets us apart,is the US Constitution,IMO.

The framers made what`s sometimes called ,"a living document".Meaning that it was made to change and adjust,as needed through time.That`s why there are mechanisms to amend it,so it doesn`t become stagnant or out dated.

I beleive that`s why it, and the US has lasted over 200 years.
The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.



Very well said

Butch

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 9:13:51 PM   
luckydog1


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What possible system can be devised that is as fast on its feet as events?    That's easy, a dictatorship.  

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 11:17:08 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

What parts of it do you want to eliminate or replace? Individual rights? Civil rights? Balance of power among the branches? It is set up to be amended (and has been many times) or completely rewritten (if most people want to).


I don't think you ADD more to the mix.

Pretty much EVERYTHING which isn't explicitly enumerated is reserved to The States and/or The People.

So....

By closing all the unauthorized offices, and firing 99% of the Federal Employees, ( And the subsequent depopulation of their Unions, and the subsequent removal of their Unions as a political player ) you pretty much solve the problem.

Federal taxes plummet, as Federal Expenditures plummet. As there's less pork to go around, the entire Federal Process becomes less relevant, and attracts fewer overall campaign contributions. Of course, State taxes will go up a bit, but overall, we're going to save money.

I'd ditch that "Direct election of Senators" crap, too. Make em serve at the pleasure of the State Legislature.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 11:19:22 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

The oldest and longest form of government in the world


I would suggest that Lincoln's Coup in 1861 disrupted the Lawful Status of Congress. Some would argue that it has never returned to it's antebellum status at all, and we seem to be continuing under some sort of Presidential Martial Law, where checks and balances are non-existent. ( Maintaining the appearance of a fictional, civilian government is well covered in the Lieber Code... But I digress. )

The Althingi was established in 930 in Iceland by Viking-era settlers. The world's oldest legislative body is now Iceland's official parliament. It wasn't continuous.

Still exisiting government, I believe the Isle of Man's Tynwald parliament, which dates from around 979 AD, lays claim to that title .

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/13/2007 11:27:49 PM >


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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: constitution idol - 10/13/2007 11:44:40 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...why is the US constitution such an important thing for US people?


The Constitution comes pretty close to encapsulating an excellent form of government. It is replicated in varying forms all over the world. Too bad the U.S. is wildly off track at this point in time, but then a de facto plutocracy always leads to corruption.

In return I ask you: is the Magna Carta of significance?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Why are the framers held in such high regard?


Again, because they did a pretty good job. They really were arguing over all kinds of things, not exclusively out of self-interest (although self-interest did factor in and is also a healthy motive that we all understand). Jefferson, Franklin, Jay, Madison, and Sherman are my true heroes of the revolution. Hamilton is the villain - the snake in political Eden.

Just do some reading. Short bios on the above named "founding fathers" will most likely answer any general questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Isn't it posible that the world they were writing about has ceased to exist and that, perhaps, each generation must fundamentally rewrite such a thing as a constitution in order to meet the unique challenges that they face?


This raises questions similar to those raised by the "anti-federalists." Again, some reading will answer those nagging general questions. It also calls up the issue of an unwritten constitution as in the U.K. There are problems either way: written and unwritten.

In the U.S. we wrote the rules down. But...

They are subject to interpretation by the judiciary. Unfortunately...

This means that true law is found in a whole host of sources: the Constitution itself, state constitutions, the writings of the framers of the Constitution, case law, statutes, etc. Resembling...

An unwritten constitutional system.

So, what's the difference?

Power corrupts. And money is the corrupter. Democracy and socialism are lies we tell ourselves so that we don't have to exist in a perpetual state of bloody revolution.


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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 12:29:44 AM   
popeye1250


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That world doesn't exist but the principals are timeless.

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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 12:42:36 AM   
Daddysjezzy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.



Nice patriotic sentiment but inaccurate.  The oldest republic in the world is San Marino. It was founded on September 3, 301. It is an enclave in Italy, on the border between the regioni of Emilia-Romagna and Marche. Also San Marino is the third-smallest country in Europe, with only Vatican City and Monaco being smaller.

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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 12:59:26 AM   
Termyn8or


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"why is the US constitution such an important thing "

Because enough of us have been infected by religion that we need a crutch when we kill the politicians.

"but i have no clue how to rewrite it to take guns from the bad guys and let the good guys keep them,"

That is unlawful. You can't take anyone's gun, but you CAN bury them with it, unless their son wants it.

"seems to me that when i see people here discuss constitutional issues the arguments tend to hinge on the precise wording of the constitution"

There is a reason for that. They foresaw things and they specifically worded certain things just right, like "shall not be infringed". They gave alot of thought to this, and did think beyond their time.

"I believe the constitution "is" our country. "

No, our country is our people. More on that in a sec.

"Well actually caselaw interpreting the consititution and applying it to current times is what controls"

That is the problem, precisely.

"I beleive that`s why it, and the US has lasted over 200 years.
The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution. "

I find it very difficult to believe that you think that. Look at the founding date of any other country other than bumfuct Bangladesh or something and you will plainly see that we are the new kid on the block. Take a look around, what you said is simply not true and so provable I don't even want to send you to Google. I mean if you really think this you must be looking to become a contestant on "Are you smarter than a fifth grader ?". The US is one of the youngest viable societies in existence, and you say it is the oldest. This is common knowledge. But I see the problem, you are UScentric.

We are not stable, and even as we and a few cohorts destabilize governments all over the world, if we don't keep an iron fist, they eventually go to what the People want. That is why we have military bases in over 100 countries. The US acts as a spoiled child of midgets who abuses them. And as for our success, the dollar is about to fall. I make $26 an hour and I don't think I will be able to make it when the shit hits the fan.

Yes my friend, the US is almost sure to experience a sanction. That will be by the stroke of a pen in China, literally. They hold around a trillion dollars worth of our debt. If they unload, get ready for eight buck a gallon gasoline, and that is of the few stations left, most of them will be out of business. Even if you have BIG BIG money, there will be nowhere to spend it.

Yay Yay USA, WE ARE NUMBER ONE !!!!!

Go Google this "America by the numbers", you will find a result on Google from citypages.com. Read it. Read it twice. Look at the cites, check them out. Read them, read them twice and check their references. If you can't get it I got it stored.

Yup, we can just tell the world what to do. We are old enough. I am old enough to die, but do I do it ?

fargle, I won't quote you. I believe you have a working knowledge of the Constitution, that is not to say you know every word, but you pretty much know what it means. Do you know what it is though ? It is not a contract nor a document, it is the very framework of the government, supposedly. That is why they keep it in nitrogen, either that or so people can't smell the politicians' shit on it. They have certainly shit on it, and for that they should die.

If one person decides he hates the US, fine, get out. But these peole took an oath, and they violated it on the very first day in office more than likely.

Enough for now.

Be well all.

T

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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 3:45:59 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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I don't see any unique challenges that would require throwing the constitution out the window. What exactly are these unique challenges as I can't think of any outside of alien invasion, or nuclear holocaust. I mean it can be amended, they just prefer to ignore it, a criminal action in my view. Look at Romneys answer in the last debate, he'd consult lawyers, when clearly he should go to congress as stated, as there was no emminent danger alluded to in the question.

What are these unique challenges? Because without getting into movie script scenarios I can't think of any.



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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 3:56:56 AM   
pahunkboy


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no way in hell do i want neocons changing the constitution.

i do not that some other countries have a right to a clean environment, one even clean water!

the trouble with changing it- is whos thinking do we use?  we see what the 2000 election fiasco is. anywhere you stand its all fricken legalistic- and of course the elite are exepmt from law.

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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 8:46:33 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysjezzy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.



Nice patriotic sentiment but inaccurate.  The oldest republic in the world is San Marino. It was founded on September 3, 301. It is an enclave in Italy, on the border between the regioni of Emilia-Romagna and Marche. Also San Marino is the third-smallest country in Europe, with only Vatican City and Monaco being smaller.



Ok,you got me,but that`s parsing things a bit,IMO.

How many governments has Italy had,in the last 200 plus years?


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RE: constitution idol - 10/14/2007 9:32:28 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.
On what planet??? The British system has been around far longer, as has the Scandinavian countries, and let's not forget Iceland, or Thailand

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